Shiningbrow

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

They aren't related. Meditation get's you into the Spirit world, if you fail it, the ritual doesn't work. The shaman just does the ritual, they can cross with no difficulty. Spirit travel is navigating the spirit world once you are there, not travelling into it.

Only that it serves to illustrate that the shaman is in both worlds all the time, where everyone else needs to cast magic or get into the spirit world to see it.

That would make sense - I'm just noting that the Discorporation Spell doesn't even mention the Spirit Travel skill, only the Meditation. And, where it is mentioned, it's quickly followed up by travelling those 5kms from the body, sort of implying that you only need the Meditation to do anything with it.

9 minutes ago, Crel said:

Deviating a little here, but since @Iskallor's question was answered and I feel this thread's still a relevant place to ask... would you use this rule of thumb for RQG as well? I know monetary values are a lot higher in RQ2, but the general RQ economics still feels sketchy to me.

IIRC in the Alchemy entry the materials for a potion cost an adventurer 50L per point of potency, meaning they would be 500L per POT on that rule. I was thinking of eyeballing a value of 100L per POT for a completed potion on the market (plus and minus market conditions at GM discretion) in RQG. Which is still crazy expensive, really, based on the values of other items (a Heal 3 potion would cost 300L, and be worth five times the income of an entire Free household's yearly income!).

And, that's why farmers don't go adventuring 😛

(or, perhaps that's exactly why they do!)

35 minutes ago, David Scott said:

A shaman has a natural affinity with the spirit world and is effectively in both world all the time, permanent second sight is the key here. Crossing into the spirit world is an hour long ritual and cost 5 magic points.

Using the Discorporation spell takes an hour long ritual, meditation roll and costs a rune point.

The major difference after this is that the Rune spell user is limited to 5km from their body, further requires more rune points spent at the casting. This effectively limits them to the Inner World as they have no means of finding (or the time) to reach a frontier and cross into a different region. I'd certainly allow the use of spirit travel (as it's 10%) to get somewhere particular, but the time limit is the problem unless extended.

The Rune spell is much weaker and ties the adventurer to their body. The shaman version effectively frees their spirit.

Thanks, but I was more wondering about the differences in using Meditation vs Spirit Travel.

Is Second Sight actually relevant here?

2 minutes ago, Crel said:

And mine was looking for the POW a temple defense spell is cast at (p.288), not really looking at Wyter information. I don't see anything in the text which says that the POW backing those spells is the Wyter's POW; it sounds more like the god's POW itself than anything else based on the description of "ancient or historic temples" which "may well have 30+ points of defense because of its importance to the god."

To my mind, the "realist" approach would be that these spells are given by the god. They work automatically. No matter how strong you are, if you grab the sacred sword in the Temple of Humakt's sanctum, you're taking that Sever Spirit and you are dead (to draw from the example of temple defenses given in the text). 

In contrast, I'm thinking about coming from POW 21 on a game balance perspective, because this gives adventurers (or other sacred-site-raiding folks) a chance, albeit unlikely, to resist the spell. More of a chance than coming from effectively-infinite POW. Another alternative would be to use the wyter's POW as that backing the temple defense, but it sounds to me from the text that the POW comes from the god, not a wyter, because a very holy site with few worshipers still might have a great deal of POW bestowed for temple defenses.

Using POW 21 means that Rune Lords basically always have a 50/50 chance to shrug off those divine defenses, which I feel... conflicted about? It feels too easy, but at the same time giving a substantially developed character a 50/50 to either "save or die" or "save or suck" does still generate a substantial risk.

Fairy Floss.. (Fairy Nuff's twin).

I'd take the numbers indicated to be the amount a Wyter currently has at any random time it's needed to calculate, based on both the amount of POW previously sacrificed, minus the amount used by the community for various functions.

If there's holy regalia in the temple - such as Humakt's Sword, and 21 is the POW the Wyter is casting at, then it doesn't take a lot of Countermagic or Shield to ignore that Sever Spirit completely (1D6 HP damage is insignificant with the Heals available) and be off with it. (keep a Guided Teleportation to get as far away as possible 😛 )

38 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I've never seen any precedent for a mechanism for mortals to stack up POW in an unlimited manner, in Runequest terms, or more broadly for worshipers to create an entity of unlimited power in Gloranthan terms.

True - but the current enchantments, RAW, can allow for something similar (not truly unlimited, but practically so by the number of people sacrificing their POW in the area). In theory, I think you could create an enchantment that has huge amounts of Rune Spells (and Spirit too), with tons of MPs powering it, and bind a spirit that could be linked to it all.

While we don't have mechanisms fully in place yet for a lot of the huge stuff that went on, and we do have Argrath summoning dragons to eat entire temples - and that's got to be do-able within the RAW somehow... so, the above POW limits are pretty insignificant in comparison.

44 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

That's simply not how the game or the world work.

But but but... mere mortals have raised gods! And killed gods, and trapped them in the underworld, and then helped get them out again (So, I'm saying, yes, it is how the world works - and they're momentous occasions)

46 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

How can that decision ever be made in a way that is not arbitrary

This is true.

However, it should also be consistent (making it less arbitrary). The ability to emPOWer a Wyter by worshippers  is inconsistent with the idea that such Wyters can be limited, especially when 50 worshippers can contribute up to 30 POW, but 15,000 worshippers can only contribute 70. Other than "we don't want it to be higher (for X-unknown reason)", it doesn't actually make sense (to me).

Btw - potential ruling could be - Wyters are typically emPOWered to X POW, based on number of worshippers in the community, who are expected to sacrifice 1 point per 3 years (as an initiate). However, further sacrifices of POW can be made, but to ensure the survival of the community, no individual is permitted to have their POW reduced below (insert appropriate number), otherwise it becomes detrimental, and a greater tax on the Wyter's abilities to protect them.

Now, if the Wyter was actually a spirit (as per p286), then this whole argument goes away...

57 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

In principle I agree, but if there are in-world reasons why something has to be balanced, then the game has to implement balance. In this case, moderating the relative power of temple, clan, and tribal wyters, these things clearly are in some kind of balance in the world and so it is legitimate to model that balance.

And I agree with you. As has been said previously, the whole "people can sacrifice POW to the Wyter" is the contentious point.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That's not what happened. Rather the reverse - my response was closer to "don't go haring off following real world stuff labeled Bronze Age which is at best tangentially relevant if you want to learn about these cultures." I am willing to give hints and explanations, and to expand at as much length as my time allows and the person asking is willing to tolerate. I've been called out to keep it short and not to frighten people away with information overload, so I give hints where to look at the IMO best sources.

I'm not trying to suggest it should be your responsibility  And, perhaps I read you more harshly than you intended. 

47 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sure. To me, these images have been pluripresent in various posts. But then, the original question would have been repeated along the line "nice images, so I guess they are Celts/Phrygians/Successor State Hellenized Persians" or whatever someone might wish to recognize there

That would depend on how different the pictures are compared to knowledge of Earth real societies. The "they're not like them at all - they just happen to wear the same clothes, live in similar dwellings, and have a similar social structure" isn't convincing.  The "they're not vikings" is only valid if they're actually presented as being completely not Viking-like (which, FTR, I don't see Sartarites as being Vikings anyway - they're Celts... although, I have to admit, the line between Celt and Viking isn't all that clear anyway - other than timing). I'm not sure people want to try a game that they can't relate to in some way.

I'm going through G2G now, and It would have been good if the various pictures for each culture was done in colour, rather than B&W. I get a much better idea of how Sartarites should look from the Adventure book than either the G2G or the RQG book! (and, yeah, Celts )

47 minutes ago, Joerg said:

You have to realize that these are raw, unhealable wounds for some of us.

Someone needs to go on a Heroquest.... 😛

47 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yes, it would be great to have a well organized official website giving official information and showing these copyrighted pictures. (I think linking to the artists' portfolio pages here is fair use, but displaying them on a website of my own would incur license payments.)

Maintaining such a website can be a painful experience - my German language Glorantha site was hacked, the data lost.

I understand that maintaining the site can be painful... but, it's a business! And a great marketing tool if done right! 

Open License SRDs are the way to go in these days of internet "I want it now" mentality.

Sucks to hear about your site hack and loss

TBH, I'm be against such an idea. Purely because it makes HQs a lot less worthwhile (unless you're intending to simultaneously increase the rewards from HQs).

It's been said above that most starting characters will have at least 1 abiility, and I'd even go so far as to suggest that a few would have 3 or 4 - certainly if you're a Humakti (weapon skills are relatively high from Cultural Background, plus the Warrior occupations, plus the Cult skills... ). A large portion of people in the world are going to be getting these abilities just by dint of being alive and doing their job every day... certainly by age 30, your typical farmer, fisher or herder ought to have a couple.

41 minutes ago, Crel said:

Well, what do you suggest for a temple defense's effective POW then?

Effectively unlimited - but, based on number of worshippers and the type of cult it is.

If a Wyter's POW comes from the amount sacrificed by the worshippers, then there shouldn't be an in-game limit. There will be practical constraints though.

Also, although the community members sacrifice POW and MPs to the Wyter (probably regularly),. I'd also suggest that the Wyter needs to expend POW (and possibly MPs) to keep the community intact, as well as having to use up the POW for rituals, healings, etc etc.

I also find the different POW maximums listed on p287 to be somewhat arbitrary and silly - 50 worshippers have a max POW wyter of 30, yet 15000 worshippers only get double that ??? If there's an awesomely wonderful reason why the vast difference, I'd love to hear it. But I suspect it's merely an arbitrary decision (If we were applying a similar formula to the gods themselves, this really wouldn't fit).

However, I'l also concede if people notice (and use) the suggestions on p286 as to how Wyters are formed as a better guideline of their POWer, and abilities. The "...include the spirits of dead heroes, genius loci, children of gods, artificial psychic constructs, souls of extinct spirits, intelligent elementals, and many other possibilities" becomes (potentially) its own limit. At the moment, RAW, there's "Wyters are spirits" as well as "they act nothing like a spirit.".

My comment was aimed at the idea that there needs to be a game balance...

On 5/20/2019 at 5:59 PM, Cloud64 said:

OK, I figured that may be the case. Still, to newcomers it doesn't look good.

And, NOT the first time I've seen that sort of aggressive response/post from a Chaosium staff member!

As can be seen by the number of reactions to your post (currently 3 likes and a thanks), and the follow-up comments, it appears that other forum members aren't pleased with it either...

On 5/20/2019 at 2:41 AM, Joerg said:

Giving unfiltered examples of Cypriotic glazings, Mesopotamian or Anatolian frescoes and Roman statuary copying classical Greek or Pontic statuary doesn't help much, either.

Did I say that you have to buy these books? A simple image search with google (and probably other search engines of your choice) delivers samples of the artwork:

A link to Jan Pospisil's art from the Guide, the sourcebook and HQG. (Warning - might contain nipples, so you have to type in your age. I wonder what happens if you type in less than three months...)

https://www.deviantart.com/merlkir/art/HQG-Esroli-and-Pelorian-Influence-564421715

Also check out the gallery on the right side.

http://www.portablecity.net/character-designs-heroquest-glorantha/

A collection of character designs for the Red Cow books, from the artist's portfolio. Exactly the images I was talking about.

 

Sorry, but pointing to Osprey Trojan War pictures, or stultified/bowdlerized childrens books renditions thereof, is mis-information.

These samples are reasonably available in the artists portfolios, with meaningful search terms for anyone sufficiently literate to find a website. Look at the sources produced for canonical Gloranthan products, not some dubious pictures of Cu Chullain or Agamemnon, or the Hermann bronze statue in Teutoburger Wald. Or some Hollywood attempt at depicting period equipment. (Bollywood however might have some useful imagery. Just turn down the sound...)

A simple link posted long before page 4 of this thread would have been even better.... Preferably as a sticky.

Even better, how about a compilation webpage? Or merely updating Glorantha.com with such imagery? Especially true now that there are some significant differences in the envisaging of Glorantha since way back when (and, also, since MRQ is soundly ignored - which new players to RQ aren't likely to know about).

The "You newbies ought to show more initiative, and stop bothering us experts on this board" is far more likely to put people off (as has already happened with one member).

On 5/20/2019 at 4:18 PM, Marty Jopson said:

Hmmm. On reflection maybe the issue is that I don’t know what the characters will be doing. Sure I have a handful of scenarios but I don’t have a one line, elevator pitch of the campaign arc. I don’t have a campaign arc. Chaosium has not given us a big meta plot yet. Sure - it’s the Hero Wars and this Argrath chap is on the rise, but so what? What will the characters be doing? I had figured that once I knew what the characters were I could build something suitably epic tailored to them. It’s a bit of a dilemma. 

 

If you're trying to sell RGQ, I wouldn't even bother with a "campaign arc". For the simple reason that the way you sell your Glorantha is going to impact their character choice. So, for the first run, either give them pre-gens, or make it clear that whatever they bother designing for their character now may not make it to a longer campaign if they decide they like the game.

The reason being - one might like the Orlanthi who has Passion (Hate Lunars) 90%, while another loves the idea of the Lunar College of Magic... and yet another is a godless sorcerer. And, of course, there needs to be the Humakti Duck

Like in D&D, the Paladin shouldn't hang around the CE Assassin for more than is absolutely necessary, it's going to be incredibly contrived (and somewhat against the ideas of the game) for the above Orlanthi to make a boon companion out of the Lunar Magician...

So, one-shot it, and then discuss what people want to do if it works out.

It's also good advice because players may quickly realise that what they thought their character can do, they can't. Or, have quite a different feel about it!

so, pitch the game and world - not your campaign ideas.

On 5/20/2019 at 3:34 PM, Crel said:

I'm inclined to go with 21 from a game balance perspective,

I'm sorry - you've lost me there.....

Only -5% for wearing sunnies in the dark??? I think you missed the 0 on the end of that number there!

Shouldn't your Rose-Coloured glasses have a -50% to Insight? 😛

18 hours ago, Tywyll said:

(is discorporating really done with just a Rune Point and a Meditation roll?)

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

I find it odd that you are asking about rules and haven't actually read this in the Rune spell description on page 326

I'm now curious as to how this Discorporation and Meditation roll are different from the Shamanic power of Discorporation and the use of the Spirit Travel skill....

7 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

RQ:G turns things up to "11" in the core rules and I am really intrigued to see where they are gonna go with the power scaling on opponents in future adventures. Our PCs have played through 7 years of game time, which is WAY more than we ever got through without skipping large chunks in 'training' in RQ3. These characters are already WAY stronger even out the gate than a lot of our graveyard of Would-be Rune-Lords from way back in RQ3.

Yep!

Firstly, more skill points, especially from the Cult skills bit. The 4x25 = 5x10 means 150 Freebie spends, which IIRC, was the equivalent of "veteran" in RQ2/3. And getting 25/30% in main skills, IIRC, is a little higher than previous. Secondly, slightly more Spirit Magic spells at CharGen. And, thirdly, 3 free Rune Points... Also, IIRC, slightly better gear (especially with the "Family Heirlooms" bit).

7 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Munchikining or not?

Party is a LM Sage, Humakti Warrior/War leader, Issaries merchant, Lanbril thief/wannabe trickster, Daka Fal Shaman, Orlanthi Hunter/Archer of Siwend (11 Lights Orlanth Subcult), Agimori Lodrili Warrior, Orlanthi Noble/Warrior/Leader. These dudes are all connected to the wyter of the Eleven Lights, the Orlanthi noble/warrior is the High priest of the 11 Lights.

The sage know Boon of Kargan Tor, Solac of the Logical Mind, Logician, and Enahnce Int. Maintains Boon of Kargan Tor (+2d6 damage) on every weapon in the party and a quiver of arrows for each archer, maintains Enhance Int on self always, Solace on self always, and many Logicians/On demand logician. 

The Humakti does Humakti stuff, Trueswords, Sword Trances, Morale (fantastic spell, btw). Fully online he hits something like 500%and change to hit for 4d8+2d6+2d6+8 (Averaging 40), specialing for 8d8+2d6+2d6+8 (Averaging 58).

The Shaman has gone bonkers AF in the last few sessions. How does the Divine Spell Multispell interact with the Shaman power of Spell Barrage. Our answer was that it was Freaking messed up and devastating, allowing each 'barrage' to contain the number of additional Multispell targets/spells. 

The Orlanthi Archer, Issaries, Agimori, and Lanril thief have been front-liners and not doing anything crazy/questionably munchkin, though the Trickster/Thief has made devastating use of Shatter and Strike spells.

Now with access to a wyter, trying to figure out how to use it without going straight to HARDCORE ABUSE has been the order of the last few sessions.

 

RQ:G turns things up to "11" in the core rules and I am really intrigued to see where they are gonna go with the power scaling on opponents in future adventures. Our PCs have played through 7 years of game time, which is WAY more than we ever got through without skipping large chunks in 'training' in RQ3. These characters are already WAY stronger even out the gate than a lot of our graveyard of Would-be Rune-Lords from way back in RQ3.

A) I don't see any logical reason for the Spell Barrage & Multispell to be a multiple effect, rather than an additive. Ie, both just allow an extra spell to be cast at the same time -ie, they do the same thing. Therefore, at best, Spell Barrage 1 combined with Multispell 1 should allow the Shaman to cast 3 (and only 3) spells for every casting of a spell... not 4. SB/MS 2 adds another spell, not multiplies the lot by 2...

b) Although RAW, the Wyter can cast any spell known by its priest, I'd rule that it's only relevant for any priestly spells for the deity worshipped (at the temple). Thus, only that deity's spells, plus those few Associated Cult spells (if they've been Sacrificed for). Significance, obviously, is if the priest controlling the Wyter has initiated (and higher) into multiple cults, you don't get all of those spells!

C) Logician is an Active spell... having even one casting operating at a time is quite debilitating. (unless, of course, your sorcerer has invented a spell not too unlike Solace of the Logical Mind, in which they've trained/spelled their mind to be able to concentrate on active spells without that debilitation... 1 point per spell, similar strength/point as Enhance INT). Besides which, there's not usually a point in having Logician cast permanently, rather than just as on demand. (Maybe Battle for those rare occasions you might get ambushed, or suddenly and unexpectedly enter into combat... and that's still with GM approval for it doing anything useful).

D) Morale is great - but it's an hour long ritual, and lasts 12 hours. So, if you know you're going into battle - great! If you don't, well, it's not happening.

E) As soon as the enemies see those guys charging (especially the decked out Humakti - probably blowing (see the related thread 😛 ), Dispel Magic will be flying!

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It makes sense to me, since we know that Extension requires a Rune Point pool dedicated to maintaining it. Without the RP backing up the spell, which are moderated by a CHA stat, which maintains a connection between the middle world and the god world, it drops.

I don't think we "know" this. We know this for normal mortal beings, but since wyter magic is based purely off the immediate expenditure of POW to cast spells (that the Priest/contact has access to), and the Wyter doesn't have CHA-limited casting, then we can't know anything for sure other than that. In fact, the only reference to CHA at all for the Wyter is it's % to successfully cast (at CHAx5%). We similarly don't know whether a Wyter can use the enchantment spells/rituals...

Also, p286 specifically states the Wyter can cast any spell known by its priest (although, I'd houserule that only those spells available from the temple deity are included... those tricksy little PCs would have all the gods' spells available, otherwise!)

Firstly, Wyters of a military regiment should be casting those spells! And, I'd probably have it as part of the High Holy Day ceremony, in which the Wyter casts the spells and then, during the same ceremony, the initiates etc refill the Wyter's POWer.

Secondly, it makes absolutely no sense to me for a Wyter to not be able to cast Extension - just because it's OTT/OP. If there's an incredibly awesome reason (or mechanic) that makes sense, I'd be all for it. But, the above 'arguments' don't provide that. We have Crimson Bats, and Harreks, and Jar-Eel, and Argrath... and the Lunar Colleges of Magic, and Argrath's Sartar Magical Unions... using the Wyters in the way described above seems perfectly in line with what's happening in Glorantha these days.

1 hour ago, Spence said:

Well thank you to those that took the time to reply to my questions.  But I have also been reading other threads in the RQ forum and frankly it has been an eye opener.  And not in a good way.  I will be shelving my copy of RQ and going back to the CoC side of the house.  I find it difficult to believe that the RQ forums and the CoC forums are on the same boards with the same company.  CoC has some differences of opinion comparing purist games to pulp games, but they have never gotten this venomous about hw you are allowed to have fun.  RQ books books are covered with pictures that say Classic Greek or Hoplite and yet to even mention it apparently is heresy or something. 

A player or GM trying to enter RQ based on the current core rule book really has no idea and cannot find anything in the core book to actually describe what the various tribe/nations are like.  I can understand that they apparently disliked real world history enough to try and make everything completely different.  Which is fine, except now the game has no entry portal unless you wish to turn a game into a full on research project.  But the venom displayed on some of the threads I read is very revealing.  Especially since it is apparently accepted as OK.

 

Now I thank the three people that took the time to answer me directly, Crel, 7Tigers and Joerg, and their well thought out responses.  You are great representatives of the RQ community. 

But I'll be moving on.  I have very little free time to RPG at all and I simply cannot waste it in this environment. 

Good luck all and I hope you can get back to the FUN that is what RPG's are all about.

It's a shame you've been turned off from a game largely in part by the (often heated) discussions and arguments on here. I personally haven't seen those for this topic, but it wouldn't surprise me...

FTR, there is the 2 Volume Guide to Glorantha which does exactly what you're asking for , an explanation of all the peoples and cultures. The first volume is focussed on the area also focussed on in the RQG book - Genertela, and thus the Dragon Pass area. That first volume is 400 pages (but, certainly no need to go through all of that!!!) It's a fairly easy read..

But, yeah, that's another expense for a game you're still not sure of. Perhaps you could look over a copy at your FLGS?? 

I know you're just trying to Min-Max, but it would be much smarter to lower the power of the Shield, and raise the number of people who can get it...

On 5/18/2019 at 9:18 PM, klecser said:

magic comes later, and that totally makes sense. 

I don't understand that... Magic is at the forefront of what makes RQ the game it is.

Leaving Sorcery til later - that makes sense! (and, if you're based around Dragon Pass with the current RQG book, it's also in-game logical!)

But Spirit Magic and Rune Spells should be right up front.. and they're incredibly easy to deal with.

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

Remember when everyone said Sword Trance wasn't broken, a Dismiss Magic would take it out?  Now a minor Humakt temple can have 40 warriors sac a point each to the wyter for shield 27 for a year.  Good luck knocking down the Sword Trance.

If you do that, the Wyter is completely vulnerable to Spirit Combat... it's going down!

And, of course, the obvious thing to do if you know that's what your enemy has just done, is to get those 40 worshippers to chase after the diversion, while the rest of your assault team race into the temple and destroy it.

(also, Shield doesn't defend against Spirit Combat either - you'd only need 3 or 4 out of that 40 to be possessed and turn on their friends to make their life just that wee-bit complicated)

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

Is it clear?

Clearly not.

Re: Bronze Age setting.

Being Late Bronze into Early Iron Age means you have more powerful weapons and armour just be dint of being made of a different, yet still reasonably common, metal... but something that doesn't dramatically alter gameplay.

Personally, I'm not a fan of fully plate-armoured "knights" crawling around dungeons... way too difficult and improbable. Coming from LotR, the only ones wearing full plate were the Gondorians, and that's only when needing to. Faramir, Boromir etc  certainly weren't  all armoured up!