Shiningbrow

17 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you were watching an episode of Vikings and there was a duel (or an argument), and someone said "Hey he's cheating, he's got woad on, that's magic!", don't you think that would be rather odd and out-of-place?

Depends upon the rules of engagement. If they disallowed the use of magic in combat such as that situation, then yes, I'd expect them to wash it off... "Sorry mate, you're on a Woad to nowhere while you've got that on!"

They'd phrase it differently, just as we should be phrasing our spells differently (as HQ does).

1 hour ago, kirinyaga said:

Indeed. I didn't say gloranthans aren't aware of magic, I said they don't make the distinction between what is magic and what is not. I think they have a single word for "magic" and "skill". Those powerful feats require a better understanding of the world, additional rituals and efforts, that's all. 

Actually, I was about to write they don't try to separate the natural from the supernatural. But, what exactly would be "supernatural" in Glorantha ? Maybe the god-learners and all those sorcerers.

I don't understand why you would think this. Societies on Earth certainly distinguished lexically between 'magic' and 'skill', and they fully believed in their gods. The words may well be related or even come from the same root. But the people who use those words have tended to know the difference in meanings (most of the time). There are words which do imply either though, but they tend to be used only in certain occasions, and for certain sets of people (sort of how our Heroquest abilities can be seen as skills/abilities rather than 'magic').

Now, if you want to talk about mysticism, skill and magic, you may be onto something.

Command Air Stasis

Creates a field of solid air around the indiivdual that acts as armour

17 minutes ago, Crel said:

I agree with this, from what I recall written in the Core book. I feel it's important as well to remember that Man and Beast are not Powers, but Forms; I understand that to mean that they reflect the shapes beings take. But as I recall the distinction within an adventurer on the Man/Beast Rune ratings scale is broadly how sociable they are, how willing to be part of society, reflecting these civilizing tendencies.

And so I find it really interesting in sort-of hindsight that I think Daka Fal's really the only cult in the Core which utilizes the Man Rune, considering it's a shamanistic cult. Again working on inference, my take is that followers of Daka Fal tend to be less "sophisticated" than our typical theists--like the Sartarites, Tarshites, etc., who go about building these big cities and whatnot. Whereas shamanism is much more common among the Praxian nomads, I believe.

Very interesting point!!!

I'd also point out (although, this is purely IMO) that it's Man (whether Plant, Dark, Earth or whichever) that takes revenge, remembers grudges, fight wars for anything other than mere survival, has a concept of 'honour' - for both good and bad. And, Man builds weapons.

I'd even suggest that Broos and similar Chaos creatures are closer to the Man Rune than they are to Beast....

Hence my suggestion of throwing Harmony in there as well.

5 minutes ago, Tigerwomble said:

Are you saying that what I've described insofar as society is concerned, is best exemplified by Harmony and not Man?

I'd probably suggest both...

But, if you didn't know, Pavis is built around the Man Rune, purely for that civilisation effect.

But, successful societies live in Harmony....

MRQ had this version of the spell basically doing the same as Protection - but you could ramp up (or down) the strength. Each point was worth 1 AP - no resistance roll stuff.

So did Lunar Sorcery at one point - but subject to the Lunar Cycle (down to no manipulations during Dark Moon!)

Harmony...

Cows with guns...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe... there is a distinction, magic does have effects, it's just that Gloranthans think of magic as being just as much part of the world as not-magic. Socially, there is no difference and it isn't considered cheating any more than reading books is cheating. Then again some people might think that reading books is cheating, and those that read cannot be trusted.

Yes, but some magic use is fine and dandy, and others definitely not.

Even the 'good' magics can anger people (don't even try to resurrect that Humakti! And, I thought there was a geas about not accepting any magical healing...).

Orlanth and Yelm would argue over the use of Cloudcall/Cloud Clear...

So, yeah, the generic use of magic is socially accepted. The specific uses of it are questionable.

The obvious difference is - if it all comes from POW (even the initial point loss), then the Priest can lose their status. It also affects MPs, may affect skills, Spirit Combat damage, etc. Also affects POW gain rolls.

So, taking the first point from spent or unspent Rune Points would be mechanically different from taking first from POW.

So, "Damn, I can't cast that last point of X spell until I POWer up, and sacrifice for it again... may sometime whenever" is quite different to "Damn, I won't be able to hurt spirits as much, and I"m down 5% on half my skills... I need to get that POW back!!!" The first is worth the extra point of STR, DEX etc... the second probably isn't.

"Evil" is obviously a perspective... wiping out all humans is evil if you're human. Wiping out all Chaos (or trolls, or or or) usually isn't. (lack of alignments and all).

So, as I've said before, I'd understand why an Orlanthi would be totally ok with a Tap Chaos, or Tap Moonbeam.... those things don't matter to them, and they themselves are evil.

Tap Spirit would be fine if you're doing it to disease spirits.

Tapping someone else's body would be fine - if they're an enemy. Tapping your friends and allies is bad form (however, I can envisage a situation in which someone willingly sacrifices themselves for a 'greater good'... ie, need MPs now to defeat this Thed Priest).

(What would happen with a Tap Undeath? Presuming any Rune can be used in such a way...)

I think in Glorantha, just like in our world, unless you're actually seeing any negative consequences, you normally don't consider them.

Also - side point (sort of). Are people going to see a significant difference between the mundane, physical manifestation of a Rune (eg, air) and the spiritual manifestation of the Rune (eg, Sylph/Umbroli)? If there is that difference, wouldn't the tapping of 'air' be seen as different to tapping the Sylph?

19 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The problem people have with the "Lie" spell is that it mis-interpreted as making people believe in something that isn't true.

In my opinion, "Lie" is a specific form of Illusion magic, creating a temporary truth, only it is a memetic truth, tied to the spoken word and gestures of the person using the spell. Pronouncements by somebody using the Lie spell will detect as Truth. If somebody has a spell to detect Illusion, that would register, too, but only on the person under the effect of Lie, not the pronouncements themselves.

That's why there is no resistance roll against Lie. The audience isn't the target of the spell. Reality is.

Deep!

11 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

...and someone related to the dead person - or a local animal spirit of the dead creature - might come and have a go at you for interfering with the passage to the land of the dead and the cycle of life and death.

Which sort of brings us full circle - is Tapping evil?

(and, FTR, I'm still conflicted... but probably that's because the player inside me wants to say "No!" so it can be used at will 😛 )

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

I usually direct people to Nearby Gamers: http://nearbygamers.com

Although China is really sparse there, if you add yourself you might get lucky.

I've used this site with good success.

 

Thanks.

 I looked at the map, and there's a couple of people in Shanghai (1 hour away), but neither are listing RQ as an option. There's someone in Nanjing (1.5 hour away), but no list of what they do. A few others are scattered around the country, with a few in Beijing I didn't bother looking at (many hours away).

7 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Wait, why is it only 1? 

Rune Lords sacrifice 1 Rune Point permanently (p272) to implement a Divine Intervention.

The player then rolls 1D10, and they lose that many Rune Points... but those are replenishable. p273.

I'm obviously presuming that the Rune Lord isn't so stupid as to try this without having a full stock of Rune Points available, and that they have sacrificed more than 10 POW to get those Rune Points...

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

That's some impressive rolls - not impossible, one of the characters in my game ended up with more than half her D6 rolls being a 6. I assume that's after rune bonuses, did the +2 go to CHA? (that's my rule, by the way) So that could just be three rolled 16s and one 17. Still pretty good!

While the deities of Luck do often throw their hands, I was more presuming egregious use of Bless Pregnancy. Either that, or a stat mechanism much more in the player's favour.

So, they're not actual rolls - just showing possibilities. So, while high, still not "OMG that's amazing" high.

39 minutes ago, Marty Jopson said:

Or is creating illusory sheep just a rubbish use of the spells? 

And somehow, in Glorantha, that doesn't come across as a silly question 😛

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

This sort of (mis)use of power happens in Gloranthan stories. The rise of Lokamayadon, and the efforts he took to bring harmony to the warring peoples of the Second Council. Alakoring stripping priests of their power until they submitted to him. Hon-eel beguiled the priestesses of Ernalda and enter the deep womb of the Earth. And so on.  

Cool. I'm happy with that...

I just don't think everyone would like to be on the receiving end... or just shrug their shoulders and accept it.

(trying to get through the modern material... most of the way through Sourcebook... next tackle/hurdle is the GoG...)

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Look at how the spell operates.  Lie, Clever Tongue and Charisma do not require overcoming magic points or POW to work.  Dominate does.  A clear bright line that you for some reason don't use.

 

Lie's lack of resistance has been and is still being discussed.... however, below.

The other obvious distinction is that Charisma and Clever Tongue are cast on Self, while the Dominate isn't.

If someone used a spell-traded Lie in the council meeting, and told everyone that X members' had their votes cancelled or didn't count, then I'm pretty sure everyone would be pissed about it - enough to get most removed from said council (and possibly banished)... except, obviously, Trickster. If anyone here is thinking "nah, it's fine... such magic isn't a problem", then I'm gobsmacked!

Charisma isn't so blatant, but I still think that if you wouldn't want people knowing you've cast it (why hide the fact if it's not a problem? And, by "hide", I mean determine that the spell has no obvious visual component). Some spells are considered not to have a visual aspect once cast... if these spells are so innocuous, then they should be fairly obvious, as are others.

4 minutes ago, Marty Jopson said:

Be afraid - be very afraid. The cows have a bovine agenda that does not include you...

While we're herding them, it's a moo-t point.

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Other people have given ample reasoning for where the line lies.  What's not to like?

 

Possession is still hostile combat with spirits and the Kolati would be in a world of hurt if he did that to a fellow member of his tribe.

 

Some are indicating a "whatever works" attitude.. if Lie is ok, as well as Clever Tongue... then why not Dominate? And if those are all ok if you can get away with it, then Charisma isn't too far down that slippery slope.

I know that Glorantha isn't a perfect world, and humans are still sucky... but as I've tried to indicate, the No Magic policy in council meetings would be appropriate. And, if someone suspects their mind or emotions have been tampered with or unduly influenced, they're not going to be too happy about it - even if using the goddesses' (or others) power to do so.

20 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Others may deplore his choice but so long as he does it secret

That's the crux of the argument... what about when it's not?

6 minutes ago, Marty Jopson said:

And personally I find cows distinctly problematic . Always chewing. Chewing chewing and more chewing. And then there is the standing and the looking and the evil glint of the eye as they plot and scheme. If a game system works in such a way as to have the possibility of character death by cow - well I call that a fine system that shows a true reflection of the cow. 

Sheep are much better. Thick as two short planks and cuddly. 

(Casts Awaken Herd Beast )

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

There is actually a great tale in one on the old zines (I believe) that tells a tale of intrigue, espionage and near warfare in a LM temple in, was it Notchet? Wish I could remember the title and where it can be  found. RQ companion maybe? Anyone?

Cheers

Please, try to remember!!! I'd love to read it!

(of course, hopefully others can chime in her)

5 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

...and not become a Monty Python "argument" sketch.

.Cheers

No it's not...

Waaahhhhhhh........

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

There's a great deal of difference between ordering the killing of a political rival and using a charisma spell.  Your problem is that you don't distinguish the two.

 

I do... I just need to determine where the lines are before going further.

Your other comments above that do sort of indicate where that line is, and it's not where I'd have mine... YGV.

(the possession could be done the night before)

On 5/10/2019 at 7:46 PM, Tywyll said:

Even with the ridiculous stat mods as I described earlier, none of my players made RL. The 'Humakt' player didn't want to take the Geas to get his skills up (though even if he had, he wouldn't make all of them). 

Interesting - I did some calculations with the following stat block:

The STR, CON and SIZ were just thrown in as "dump stats", with obviously the priorities as mentioned above (CHA is necessary at 18). I'd even imagine, with Bless Pregnancy turned up to 11, that the STR and DEX would go up a little (enough to get extra % in a few important skills). If super-tuned, the INT could be 21 (if allowed) and that really makes it easy! (+5% to most categories)

With those stats, Humakti Warriors (especially Grazelander cavalry) are easily getting the basic skills needed to hit RL level (with a few +25% left over!) Sword, Lance, Dagger, Ride, and Battle (especially since the Character Background tables are likely to throw a few points every couple of years). And, since Humakt demands at least 1 gift be taken... RL at CharGen.

I looked at other combinations too.... A Sartarite Noble Orlanthi would have 2-3 skills at 90% or higher, and a couple of others at 80-85% (Sword, Orate, Sing, 2nd Weapon (I'd presume Shield is included in that) Oh, and as I type this, I just realised that Honour is a Passion, and there's multiple opportunities to pick that up during Background History...

Going with Humakt as your first cult, and then cross initiating into Orlanth makes it even easier!

Those are just the two I was looking for (Orlanth and Humakt)... so, it's possible if you want it.