Shiningbrow

3 hours ago, g33k said:

I suddenly envision a "refined" Storm Bull.  Drinks tea over beer, insists on a just-so "tea ceremony" (stylized & formal) prep, etc.  OCD levels of refinement, and Orlanth Save Us All if everything isn't p-e-r-f-e-c-t .

And, of course... everything usually isn't perfect.

 

Orlanth

Save

Us

All

Hannibal Lecter ...

Psycho/Sociopath who was very refined...

I can see someone like that in Stormbull - and when it matters, goes Berserk and wipes out Chaos foes. (has a Heroic Ability to Clean Armour after battles, so he doesn't look ruffled :p)

4 hours ago, Lord High Munchkin said:

Sadly Kafiristan was purged and the Nuristanis were converted.

Sad. Not surprised.

IIRC, the spirits they were talking to were call the Pari, which comes from Islamic mythology anyway! (well, I'll rephrase that - became associated with the Islamic tradition after Islam came along and altered their beliefs).

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It may seem contrived, but it isn't really all that unusual.

Yanioth is only one rune experience tick away from this very situation. She has Fertility and Beast both at 85%, if she gets a tick on her Beast and it increases (or fumbles a Fertility augment and loses points), she has a better chance of casting Charisma with a non-Ernalda rune.

Nathem has a higher Movement rune than any of his Odayla runes, but there aren't any Odayla rune spells that have the Movement rune.

And there are cult rune spells that have to be cast with a rune that the cult that does not have. Find (Substance), for instance. Find Lead would clearly use the Darkness rune and Issaries doesn't have that. Find Gold would use the Fire rune. There may be Find spells which could be cast with more than one runes. Which raises an interesting question... what Rune would Sorala's Find Magic matrix use? Oh, a POWx5 as it's a matrix, that's easy. But if it was her own spell from Lhankor Mhy...

Also, it leaves problems, such as, what are Aldrya's runes? Well, now that the Bestiary is out we now know that they are Earth and Plant, so you can't cast Accelerate Growth with your Fertility rune. But before the Bestiary was out, that was an unanswerable question. Asrelia, does she have the Fertility rune? Can an Ernaldan use Fertility to cast Bless Grave, or does it have to be Earth? We don't know, because we don't know Asrelia's runes (without referring to an old publication or the internet - it's Luck and Earth, apparently).

In fact there's an unanswered question in the rules already - if your Seven Mothers priest gets Shield from Hwarin Dalthippa, what runes can they use to cast it?

Have you thrown those into the RQ questions thread?

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

"Blast you for being a bunch of narrowheaded men! Violence is not the only option. Ernalda, grant my your blessing to show these woolheads that there is always another way!"

(Note that an Ernaldan getting this emotional is already a sign of extreme agitation...)

Fair... but hopefully rare.

You're actually helping my argument here... if an Ernaldan Priestess is resorting to using this spell in the meeting, it should be something really important and serious... and not just a random "I want Tacos for lunch" (champion or food...)

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

Perhaps the HeroQuesting section will have its own book, as Jeff keeps expanding it.

Basic rules for it certainly don't. MRQ managed to do up something effective, and combine it with their version of God Learner Sorcery...

However, a huge GoG book should have listings for various HQ myths... or, as you suggested, its own book.

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Happens all the time. Its "acceptability" depends on what god gets brought in and how powerful they are. Your community of Neolithic farmers gets visited by a tattooed stranger who wants you to help him fight against the lowlanders. Your spirits and elders, led by your Light Priest, say no, but the stranger says his god is mightier than yours. He challenges your Light Priest to the Contest of Manifestations. The Light Priest agrees and summons forth a a light as bright as the sun. "I am the light of the Sky," he says. The stranger laughs and a dark storm gathers in the sky, blotting out the sun and the blue sky. A terrible explosion is heard, as a thunderbolt crashes down upon the Light Priest, slaying him. "I am the King of Storms," he says.

The shaman says that the Storm King is a dangerous and deadly god, and that god is more powerful than the light of the Sky Dome. Your village agrees to let any adult who chooses to follow the Storm King into war. The stranger offers gifts and plunder, and many agree to follow him.

 

I agree it happens,

However, the acceptability example you used is light-years away from the example I was using. Your example is one that I would understand and agree with. It is intentional and aggressive.

And doesn't really relate to the use of Charisma to woo your peers in the Tribal Council meeting.

p 315... "Using a Rune spell literally channels part of the power of a god to affect the Mundane World; it is not an invisible act! The caster always exhibits some form of manifestation of the
magical powers at their disposal. The caster might appear to grow larger (even if their SIZ is unaffected), burn with an inner glow, crackle lightning from their fingertips, or even start to physically resemble the image of the deity."

(some might argue that the 'burn with an inner glow" might be very subtle...)

No, the Ernalda Priestess is not casting that spell in the middle of the meeting with the Lunars and Yelmalians in occupied territory just to get the upper hand in a debate...

Is she doing in the council meeting with the Orlanthi, LM, Issaries, etc etc tribal council? Still, in my Glorantha, I'd consider it grossly inappropriate and disrespectful to the other leaders.

38 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So if a Chalana Arroy has Heal Body, and they happen to have a higher Earth rune than Harmony or Fertility, they can't use Earth to cast Heal Body because Earth isn't a Chalana Arroy Rune? I'm not so sure about that.

Essentially you are saying that there should be a rule that says "A Rune spell can only be cast using a Rune that the originating cult has listed". I can see the argument in favour, it's essentially an extension of the Common Rune Spell rule. I'm undecided on it right now.

"A Rune spell can only be cast using a Rune that the originating deity has listed".

After all, that's the power they're channelling.

(It'd be curious that many Chalana Arroy initiates would have an Earth higher than either Fertility or Harmony). And, as per Associated Cults spells, you have to use the Rune of the deity that provides the spell.. Ernalda is not providing the spell to CA.

Again, one thing that's missing from RQ in order to make the game a little easier on players is the use of common names for magic... So, instead of Heal Body, there should be Chalana's Joy, and Ernalda's Blessing of Health. If we had those as part of the rules, then there wouldn't be an issue which Runes to be using.

This currently doesn't seem to be a rule, and in fact there's a line that runs contrary to it in the RGQ book "rolls a Rune affinity the adventurer shares with the spell" (my emphasis)

Cool! Not surprised!

Congrats, and good luck!

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Again, this happens in many Gloranthan stories. Gods show up, and people either acquiesce, summon their own gods, or run away. Sometimes the "gods" have a contest and people carefully watch who wins. 

I'm still not getting whether you think this is ok all of the time, or only some of the time... (even if that 'some' is 'most')

5 hours ago, Marty Jopson said:

I hear what you say @EpicureanDM and @lordabdul about the laundry list of names and places. I think one of the issues I have, and suspect it would be an issue for any new-comer to the game is the tendency of Gloranthan material to be written in character. Consequently the text makes the assumption that the reader is also in character and thus has a pile of background knowledge on the setting - hence the laundry list. It's great for Glorantha-philes who can then see all the subtle nuances being brought out. It is also a good way to highlight the way there is no absolute morality in Glorantha and "alignment" is relative. But for a newb it is confusing. To be honest, I find it a bit bamboozling despite playing the game in RQ1, 2 and 3 iterations - I was never into reading up on the background at the time. I think this is a real problem for RuneQuest and its potential in the future. Was a beginners set / box / book being planned? I hope so and I hope that the powers that be( @Ellie, @Jason Durall, @Jeff ) make sure to do blind testing on complete Glorantha newbies - i.e. hand them the game and see how they cope with no other input.

Thanks all for the recommendations. I will pick up Kingdom of Heroes and the Voices pdf. I will let you know how I get on...

You've managed to say exactly the sort of thing I've been thinking as I read through the Source Book. And, like you, I started on RQ back at first edition (without reading the backgrounds etc... I usually played the weird stuff that the others didn't)

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The very idea that anyone would even consider saying "lets not call upon Odin in this duel" is just bizarre and inconceivable to me. When Ubbe fought a duel with a king in the final season, of Vikings, he literally calls upon Odin to give him strength, and gets up and pounds the king into the dirt. It's like asking a Christian not to pray before a meeting, or a martial artist to not do their kata warm-up or focus their Chi before a competition.

9 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Yeah, I would, because this would be exceptionally weird. its the kind of thing a gamer would do, but not people in the real world. Prayers and supplications to the gods before a duel were pretty standard. That's invocation. That's magic. The fact that it is hokum in the real world doesn't mean that people didn't do it, or that they were like, 'Hey, he's praying! That's cheating!'. The whole idea behind medieval dueling was that God would choose the righteous person. Equally, depending on era, duelists brought their own weapons which may well have been 'enchanted' by priests or master smiths. That's not forbidden. People aren't going to fight a duel without doing everything they can to change the odds in their favour.

But... would they allow the guy to wear his Bear shirt so he could transform? (ie, go Berserk) Some things in some situations are acceptable. At other times, not.

In the other example we're using, and to try for an analogy, if there's a meeting (say, the Lunars are chatting with the Orlanthi and Yelmalians about property rights, tariffs, taxes and tributes), and someone brings down their deity with a big showy flash of light and huge glowy aura - how will the others react? "Oh, cool - yeah, ok, you've convinced us"? or...???

Which, as I've said, takes us back to the OP question - is such magic flashy or not? If it's not obvious, is there a good reason for that? Lie is specifically written with "undetectable casting".

Here, obviously, is where our Gloranthas differ... (I'd probably have that initially the spell has a glowy effect and a calling down light... which fades after about 10 seconds, but the caster has a very strong aura about them (not that people can usually see auras).

18 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

It's merely have and have nots. 

I don't disagree. The have nots aren't always pleased to be so, or to have the haves showing off.

5 hours ago, Alexandre said:

This is interesting and is a disconnect that is happening in my game. The assistant shaman has a strong rating in the Man rune (for maximum spell efficiency, if nothing else!). So he should be civilized, should like what is made by man (warm baths?) etc. but this seems to be contrary to what you expect a shaman to be. 

There was (maybe still is) in northern Pakistan (way up in the more isolated mountainous region) that animists (basically 'shaman', although that's actually  a form of cultural appropriation) live in a non-nomadic or barbarian society - ie, they live in houses, and do all the usual stuff that city-dwellers do.

Shinto is not too far off as well (but, depends on definitions...), and that's very much in civilised society relating to a Man Rune. Not only are they honouring the ancestors, but also the local spirits as well (could probably use the word 'deity' here too).

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

And are illuminated so much that they glow in the dark...

True.  I"m just pointing out that in Glorantha, there is the weird and wonderful.

So, a Stormbull with Harmony is possible!

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Nope. I checked the cults originating Charisma, and each of these cults has one of the runes. It would be weird for a cult to have non-associate magic using a rune different from the cult's (or its subcult's) runes.

Under that reading, Charisma from Ernalda uses Fertility, Charisma from Yinkin uses Beast, and Charisma from Eurmal (also for Orlanth) uses Illusion.

It also suggests that associate magic using an element rune may be useless to the associate cultist if she doesn't have a rating in that element (yet).

Yep... (as in, yes it's true, but...)

However, I understand the logic you give.

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think an associate spell is linked to the associate cult's runes, though. Orlanth gets Charisma from Eurmal, there's not reason he has to use an Eurmal rune to cast it. He could use Beast, Illusion, or Fertility. Shield is tricky, though. Chalana Arroy gets it from Orlanth, does she have to use an Orlanth rune? I guess so.

P283 - yes, you have to use the associated cult's Rune for the spell... which would be as @Joerg has it written above - if you get Charisma from Ernalda, you'd probably need to use Fertility, if you get it from Yinkin, you'd probably need to use Beast... ie, shouldn't get to use whichever Rune is your highest... I'd say it's actually 3 different spells, from 3 different deities, and we meta-gamers just happen to use the same name for it for convenience sake.

21 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I could still change my opinion (especially after talking to my players) since my Glorantha technically doesn't exist -- I haven't started playing yet   But this is all very interesting because it helps me form a clearer mental picture of what the world should feel like, and also points at any problem that might arise at the table... I can totally see my players arguing at length about this specific topic, so it's nice to be warned in advance so I can establish early what magic is and isn't in my game.

If that's the case, the first thing to do as GM - before even starting - is to decide what visual and other sensory effects your spells will have... if any!

And, what's the general attitude to using magic in various situations... especially on/around friends, clan members, etc.

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I could still change my opinion (especially after talking to my players) since my Glorantha technically doesn't exist -- I haven't started playing yet   But this is all very interesting because it helps me form a clearer mental picture of what the world should feel like, and also points at any problem that might arise at the table... I can totally see my players arguing at length about this specific topic, so it's nice to be warned in advance so I can establish early what magic is and isn't in my game.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?6216-If-Spells-and-Abilities-Were-Written-How-My-Players-Use-Them

D&D, but still a bit apt...

Perhaps we should try for an RQ version?? 😛

Gelmollan is still Lkankor Mhy or Humakt.

I get the Water to Glass - just the wrong word (because we think we know what glass is...). Stasis, to me, is fine. If it was Water to Ice, it'd need the Cold rune!

Ecstasy - make it a ritual like the Issaries Market spells... 15 min, plus Etxension otherwise. Instead of contagious, just make it an area affect. (might not be your intent, I know, but still....).

OTOH, you could just create a Passion Spirit for Ecstasy, having the same/similar effects, with contact making the spirit leave the first person and going to the next.

Just now, RHW said:

I couldn't find it in RQG, but I might've missed it.

p181

1 hour ago, RHW said:

The old RQ 3 version of this skill might work better and is at least somewhat canonical. Doubles unarmed combat base damage if you roll under the Martial Arts skill I think? So 2d6 kicks, 2d3 fists.

The current version works pretty much the same...

1 hour ago, RHW said:

though I do wonder if you might need a different mother than fog, which conjures neither truth (fog is Illusion)

My first thought as well.....

Orlanthi are (shadow)cat lovers...

27 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Sure, but that was already addressed previously in this thread...<snip>

 

Perhaps, but I don't agree that the analogy actually fits.

I"m sure all the council members also have 'aides', and can get in lots of information (not quite realtime, but possible... I can see the Lhankor Mhy sorcerer being asked to supply answers to questions using magic).

The examples you (and others) have used like this are more like an Augment than an invocation to the Goddess.

Anyway, it seems that our Gloranthas vary in a fundamental way, and none are likely to change views (although, @PhilHibbs did say he painted himself into a corner...). In that, if the magic is obvious, then it's ok. If it's subtle (and needs to remain hidden) then perhaps it's not... However, if it is open and obvious, then people just might wonder why it is that you feel you need to use it (obviously, these would be the people with an opposing viewpoint)

(Quck edit - Charisma uses the Illusion, Fertility and Beast Runes.... FWIW)

9 hours ago, lordabdul said:

It is indeed interesting because if it was a Charisma skill, or, say, a Charisma "advantage" (for systems with advantages/disadvantages or other types of traits that don't say "Magic"), we wouldn't be having this conversation, even if the description for such a trait was along the lines of "your character has the favour of the Gods" or something.

To add to @Oracle's reply, there's also the very visible (when you know how to look) manipulation techniques that exist on Earth, and that are directly relevant to Charisma. I guess it also relates a bit to what @Bill the barbarian was saying about politicians but, indeed, depending on the situation and the context, someone shaking your hand, holding your shoulder, making eye contact, or asking for small favours first (FITD technique) could be considered acceptable, frowned upon, or unacceptable. How many times have you been to an electronic store and the salesman tells you "oh I've got that same model at home myself, it's a really good choice"? That's definitely visible and (for most people) noticeable, but it still happens.

Depending on how your Gloranthans view these things, in different contexts, a spell may or may not have a visible or noticeable component. I'm pretty sure the form of spells have a bit of an evolutionary component, where the specific form of some spell might have changed across the ages to "survive". Other forms of that spell might have "died" a long time ago (nobody used them anymore) because they were not as effective as other forms. In a Glorantha were noticeable Charisma spells are seen as "wow that person is really impressive, they've got the blessing of the Gods, etc. etc.", the spell might get fancy or even tacky. However, in a Glorantha where Charisma is seen as a sleazy manipulation technique, "cheating", "manipulation", whatever... it might have "evolved" into an invisible spell that requires magical detection to figure out if it's been cast. I think it's fine as long as things are consistent, and as long as players know what to expect -- again, I wouldn't like spending points on Charisma only to be told I can't use it at this important clan meeting my character is going to because NPCs will get mad at me.

Going back to the OP - if Charisma has an in-game obvious effect, which wouldn't be like the "advantage" or skill or trait.

And, it is specifically calling upon the Goddess to empower the person with a power that they themselves don't actually have (differentiating between the power itself, and the ability to call upon the power - which is closer to your 'advantage' above).

Using the above techniques described about eye contact, etc, is already included in the skills - Charm, Orate and Fast Talk. However, analogising to Earth, we'd be really pissed off if someone was able to hypnotise us into doing things we're not happy with. Or dropping Roofies into drinks.

That salesperson says "I've got that exact same model at home" is perfectly ok if they do (or, you believe they do). But, when you hear them say that to every customer about every brand, then you'd be pretty pissed off (mostly at yourself for being gullible)

I don't think anyone has suggested Charisma (and its ilk) can't be used - including in those important clan meetings. I have suggested that perhaps people may not want it

On 5/13/2019 at 6:23 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Not sure where "just because it suits your personal goals" comes from, if someone is arguing from a position of personal aggrandisement at an important tribal council then they will be treated with suspicion regardless of their use of magic. 

I'd like to think that, but it's not always clear.  The battle of the queens in Notchet would be an example of this.

On 5/13/2019 at 6:23 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Those are entirely different kinds of actions to using your powers of persuasion, and Charisma is just another of those powers of persuasion. The fact that it is a magical ability is entirely irrelevant.

And, here we disagree... especially when we're talking about calling upon the Gods.

Q: Do Charisma and Glamour stack? As Shield and Protection/Countermagic do? Or (Weapon)Trance and Bladesharp?

Just pointing out... Create (Great) Market only uses the Harmony Rune - no Man involved.

Oddly enough, Charisma (from Ernalda) uses Beast, and not Man (along with Illusion and Fertility!)

I imagine the Peace Rune spell also uses Harmony, and not Man.

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

I have never seen the Storm Bull presented as a carrier of Harmony.

Show me a Berserker embodying Harmony... Show me how mindless rage fits in with Harmony.

And Dorastor has Broos and other Chaos creatures that are civilised, polite, and even act as healers...