Squaredeal Sten

You had a more detailed bargaining concept started with writing down goals. What steps would you suggest for carrying it out? For example, one possibility is to do opposed skill rolls and each "win" achieves one goal in the package. But if we do that, do we stop when the list of goals is exhausted? When one side's list of goals is exhausted? How do we decide whether the resulting package is acceptable or one side, having lost every point and gotten nothing, walks away?

And that's certainly OK with me. My purpose is to put a definite mechanic out in public in accord with the theme of the thread. This suggestion is intended to get players and GMs thinking about non-combat events. It has the advantage of knowability: It's a template to follow: Methodically suggests to GMs how to think about and prep background for those non-combat interactions. and suggests how to do persuasive rather than combat actions, using the adventurers' existing skills and lores and suggests identifying who is to be persuaded. If you want to skip die rolls and do in-character conversations that's definitely OK with me. I will personally try to push the adventurers into doing in-character conversation anyway, if only to define what they are trying to do. But when the player has Orate 5% and the character has Orate 60%, the die roll is intended to let the player play someone who can orate. Just like plenty of people who have never thrust a sword or a spear (or a rifle and bayonet, very similar to a 2 handed spear) can play characters who have Broadsword 90%, 2H Spear 90%. If you want to play a Mostali with a musket, do you have to have a real world skill with muzzle loading smoothbores? Now the next step is to do a similar template for a bargaining situation. The GM decides which of the two templates fits the situation and the adventurers' goals.

I am thinking that in a second round, the targeted groups' reactions to the first round might affect each other; that is, if the priestess and the chief change to be favorable, then in round 2 they might affect the weaponthanes and the farmers. Say a change to Interested or Inclined will affect the other groups favorably, while a Hostile or Suspicious change will be unfavorable. In this way the clan should move toward a consensus. What do you think of that as a mechanic for simulating the group?

I would treat each argument presented in the same session as an augment, and allow multiple augments. That has the advantage that all GMs and players are already familiar with the augment concept. A second round of persuasion will be handled by running through part B of the form again, since ALM's persuasion concept in Company of the Dragon is explained that way. Basically you wear down the target group(s) Resistance. A simple success is good for 1 step on the scale of 0-10 (though you should hope to begin with Resistance in the center of the scale - 10 is for persuading enemies!) It takes a special or a Critical to make 2 or 4 steps of progress. So you can persuade an Interested group in one round, but a Neutral group will take at least two. It seems to be oriented toward the idea that you will usually need more than one argument.

To me, the difference is that persuasion is for a yes/no result, and negotiation is for an exchange of actions, favors, or goods; and as you indicate, a probable result is "requires recompense of goods or favour" . Yes negotiation includes persuasion, or at least has to be preceded by persuasion: If I'm not persuaded that I want what you have to offer than I will not negotiate for it. Negotiation indicates the need to write down bargaining goals, as you outlined above. I am farther along on my thought about a template for persuasion than i am about negotiation. So let me give an example of the template i have in mind. I will attach a PDF form. It is arranged with the NPCs (individuals or groups) to be persuaded listed across the top. Let's say that my character is trying to persuade the clan to send a war party with her, to attack marauding scorpionmen right now, rather than waiting until after harvest or until the scorpionmen attack first. The primary person to persuade is the clan chief. Influencers are (just as arbitrary examples) the Ernalda priestess, the weaponthanes, and the farmers. The farmers want to get the harvest in first, the weaponthanes want glory, and the clan chief has to balance eating and safety. The clan chief starts as neutral to the idea, but feels Loyalty to the PC and the PC has some Reputation.. I arbitrarily say that the GM's concept of the clan is that the chief has 50% of the say-so. (He would never send out a war party against united opposition) . The Ernalda priestess has 20%, the weaponthanes 10%, the farmers 20%, the total weight of influence is 100%. The starting Resistance (IAW ALM's book) is 6, neutral, on a scale of 10 to 0. The PC first goes to the friendly priestess and appeals to their mutual loyalty and to the desirability of fighting Chaos. The GM decides that the PC's charm skill will be the basis of the attempt to persuade, but this will be augmented by their mutual loyalty and an appeal to Sartar lore (everyone knows scorpion men are a real threat.) The augments are rolled, a success and a failure) and the effect is a benefit of 20%. The PC's Charm is only 30%, but after augment she is rolling for 50%, and she gets a 32. Success! This will change the priestess' resistance from 3 to 2. The influence on the total decision is the difference between the chief's attitude (which is yet to be computed since the PC hasn't yet spoken to him) and the priestess's, times the priestess's 20% influence on the decision. The PC talks to the weaponthanes, who are neutral to favorable, appealing to glory augmented with the PC's reputation. The GM decides the underlying skill is Orate and it will be augmented by Reputation. But the Rep roll is fumbled! 20% unfavorable impact. Worse yet, the PC's orate roll is a 94, not quite a fumble. The total effect on the weaponthanes is a failure to persuade, but does not alienate them. There is a clan meeting... The PC addresses the farmers, who don't like the idea of fighting before the harvest, and the chief. She attempts to Fast-talk the farmers past their harvest time objection, and fails. ( She also failed the Orate roll, so the augment failure gave a penalty of 20%.) Luckily even this does not come out as a fumble. The address to the chief is more carefully prepared. First, the PC gave the chief a suitable gift. Then she succeeds with her Sartar lore and Reputation rolls! A total 60% augment. Her orate roll is a success, but not quire a special, and the chief's opinion improves by 1, he's moving toward being interested. The three influencer groups' effects are mixed, but the priestess is so favorable that the net result is to further persuade the chief a little, by 0.4. Therefore the Resistance is down to 4.6, interested. The meeting will continue.... Example use of Form for group persuasion.pdf

Good points, great idea on writing down goals of negotiation. I think it is important to distinguish between persuasion and negotiation. These seem to me to need two different templates for game mechanics. Just as opposed skill rolls and the resistance table are two different mechanics for different situations.

The skill opposition system you advocate is the resistance table. I can see that applying when two sides are making opposed arguments. I'd like to distinguish between two opposed sides arguing and attempts to persuade. That shiuld be part of the template provided to the GM.

i don't think we should be trying to duplicate combat. There are no hit locations in persuasion, nor is there armor. I do think that there is persuasion of one person, and of groups, and those are different. There is more detail and more steps in persuading groups. There are methods of persuasion (and IMHO the existing communication skills cover that adequately, except for (1) gifts / bribery), and (2) past favors owed. There may be several different people or groups to be persuaded. This is a GM construct but the GM should be provided a checklist or template for constructing the situation. (And there is direct and indirect persuasion, that is you can persuade "influencers". That's part of the same GM construct.) There are predispositions / attitudes to be changed. Those are like NPC stats. By the way, Loyalty % will provide such a pre-disposition, even though you may want to rescale loyalty % to an attitude points scale. The GM should be provided a template and process for the pre-dispositon and for resolving attempts to change that pre-disposition. Augments apply to both combat and communication. i don't see any reason to modify that. There should probably be some bonus for using information about / appealing to the target's interests, prejudices, and history. Discovering those interests and history should be done via role-playing and customs % and lore%. That discovery will be the stuff of active role playing, not just a single 'die roll to discover stuff".

And he got away from us before we could ask him! My own guess is that he was capable of dealing with ambiguity, indeed made a game that often uses ambiguity to generate story and adventure. And if he were still around he might simply tell us to each deal with it in our own way. Which leaves us back at the many RW examples of "female" not equal to "passive", and how those will fit into our games.

Actually in my proposal I use the same technique those 18th century longitude projects used: i rely on a unique celestial observation as the synchronizing method. In this case not the transit of Venus across the sun, but instead Yelm's daily emergence from the underworld. I do not assume that Yelm follows the same exact schedule from day to day. Given a flat Glorantha, sunrise should be simultaneous all over the lozenge.

I have no problem making an authentically bad map: I did it a few sessions ago in my campaign, and charged a player about 20 lunars for it. I drew it freehand, so the distances are not exact. And I included some details and not others - which is the case with all maps, even modern topographic maps. It's the difference between google maps map default view and their aerial photo view. Anyway, I drew it to the spec that i was given, in the context that the party was in, and interpreted it as a Lhankor Mhy initiate in the Jonstown Library might, putting in reasonable details given that said initiate did not know what the party intended let alone what would unfold in the campaign. And indeed at that time even I did not know which way they would choose to go to reach their goal.

As far as the male/female roles topic and the Gloranthan cults go, though, I see the Gloranthan cults and their gods as archetypes as in Jung's psychology. Possibly Greg Stafford was influenced by Jung. The field of psychology has moved past both Freud and Jung, and i have trouble with Jung's 'collective unconscious", but they had some great insights. And there are some Real World behaviors that are just human, while another species will do other things in the same environment. I do believe some behaviors are "hard wired". A live example can be seen in my dog, a golden retriever. She is much more of a pack animal than I am. She is hard wired to adore me, returning my affection for her fivefold. She is intelligent (goldens are a much more intelligent breed than others), but dogs don't seem to be able to deal with ropes and leashes without entangling themselves, and never learn why they are getting entangled - that's just one thing humans are naturally good at and dogs are not. And I observe that goldens in general are much more hard wired to be affectionate to humans, and to house train themselves, than other breeds such as dachsunds. That doesn't mean she only does hard wired stuff: For example she opens doors that have door handles instead of knobs, which is something her predecessor (also a golden) never did. Anyway, I do believe some behaviors are 'hardwired', though I don't personally believe religion is such a behavior; Instead I think it's just taught young, at ages at which children just soak up everything they are taught (and people have been taught for tens of thousands of years), therefore it's widespread. But I am willing to roll with Greg Stafford's opinion when I play in his game, that's called suspension of disbelief, which is necessary to enjoy any fiction. Back to the reason I mentioned Jungian archetypes: I see Ernalda as one female archetype. As discussed, there are many others in the game's cults. And there is room to interpret Ernalda as not-passive. For example: Esrolia in general appears to subscribe to a slightly different set of archetypes in which women lead - not that men can't lead, but that the Esrolian women judge men are too impulsive to make the best leaders.

What makes you sure that Glorantha has a horizon? If Glorantha is not round but flat, then you won't have an Earth type horizon otherwise known as the limit of observation caused by the curvature of the earth. No mast heads of ships appearing first as they approach. I had thought that extremely distant objects wouldn't be visible only because the atmosphere is not perfectly clear, and because of obstructions like trees and mountains. So from a seaside mountaintop you should be able to see all the way from Genertela to Pamaltela, but not able to actually make out what is there. No estimating the size of Glorantha from measuring the angle between the vertical and the sun at noon and then taking a known distance as part of the arc around a round planet! But estimating the size of Glorantha from celestial observations is still possible: You have a flat world, and would need simultaneous observations of the sun as it goes though the sky: Eatimate east-west distances by measuring the two acute angles of the right triangles formed by the western point A, the sun, and the eastern points B and C. Since Yelm will be directly overhead in the east first in Kralorela and only overhead near the end of the day in Loksalm, the trick will be to use two duplicate water clocks to measure time after sunrise, and to observe your angles at the same moment. if you have paced off the distance between western points B and C you have the one known distance that you need, and can compare the triangles A-Yelm-B and A-Yelm-C, find a ratio of sides A-B to A-C, and derive your distance A-C.. Several sets of such simultaneous observations taken during the day should give a range of calculated distances, enabling estimation of a distance and a distribution of error. Do observations hourly for several days until your margin of error is acceptable. Now do you have to invent trig tables which are not a RW bronze age thing -? No you don't! The Bablylonians evidently did triangles without the concepts of cosine and sine. https://www.zmescience.com/science/math/oldest-example-of-applied-geometry-babylon-05253/

Yes, that is very helpful of you. I can see that there is room to zoom in on the Sambari tribe. Probably more than i will expect to see in the forthcoming Sartar book, but I have so special insight into that. Something in the vein of the Dregs / Cups of Clearwine series.

So based on that I defined these pieces of basic information for 1622 ST, in the Great Winter - Personalizing the Firebull clan of the Sambari tribe - note COD orlanthi name gen male p.55;p.59 female Located at N end of Stormwalk Mts, S of the Rokarth clan, not on the king’s highway. Was the core of the Firebull rebellion in 1615- suppressed harshly – these people have not benefited from the Lunar trade and bear grudges – but were thoroughly beaten. and have suffered from the visitations of the Bat- considered suspect by the lunars, many were enslaved and exported to Peloria or to Sundome or to Prax. Chief: Barnestan. Air 90%, proud; movement 90%, daring; Mastery 90%, persuasive. Motivations: to preserve clan in this time of trouble, to cling to power, to recover enslaved clan members. Personalizing the Rokarth clan of the Sambari tribe Located along the king’s highway on the border with Balmyr tribe, E of Wilmskirk, the clan has long profited from the King’s road. Not sympatheric to ambushes on the road, cowed by Lunar army, Chief: Andrinyan. Air 90%, violent; movement 90% daring; mastery 90% persuasive Motivations: pride, to cling to power. Did not participate in rebellion, previous chief was killed. Personalizing the Vari clan of the Sambari tribe Located along the king’s highway farther E of Wilmskirk, the clan has long profited from the King’s road. Otherwise, small land holding but profitable valley land. Chief: Jarkar , Air 90%, proud, inspirational. Motivations: to lead his clan, preserve them Personalizing the Jerending clan of the Sambari tribe Located north of the king’s highway and of the Stream, S. end of the Quivin mts, Chief: Hantristar. Air 90%, proud, inspirational. Motivations: to lead his clan, preserve them Grey Fox clan of the Sambari tribe Located south of the king’s highway and the north end of the Stormwalk mountains, Involved in mining, Punished by the Lunars after the 1615 rebellion, Some of their land has been taken for the Temple of the Reaching Moon, and many enslaved to build it. Chief: Hantravanth – younger than most chiefs (his predecessor was executed, fed to the Crimson Bat) , his bearing is proud Air 90%, proud Motivations: preserve his clan in this time of trouble Squat Oak clan of the Sambari tribe Located along the king’s highway to the Khleldon border and Goodfork, the clan has long profited from the King’s road. Visited by the Crimson Bat in 1620. Chief: Serenana – long hair elaborately braided piled on top of her head. Tatooed with a green dye, wears a long skirt and an open bodice, exposed breasts. Earth 90%, pragmatic; Fertilty 90%, protective; harmony 90%, empathetic. Motivations:enure survival of her people and their way of life. With the Great winter, supports the warbands

Yes, backward planning. Because there are almost infinitely many possible women's initiations and myths. So design the one(s) you want to reach the adventures you want to GM. But don't make the women's initiation the same as the men's. That would be boring. You have decided passivity is not the essence of femininity. I don't argue with you, as I am married to a non passive woman and was borne by one. Now decide what is.

OK so just six Sambari clans: Jerending, Rokarth, Firebull, Vari, Grey Fox, Squat Oak

Has anyone done any public work defining the Sambari tribe clans? I note that there is a Sartar clan map in Well of Daliath, that shows the following clans in the Sambari area by eye - though it doesn't have tribal boundaries- From west (Wilmskirk) to east and north to south: Wildcat Danist Arl Duroli Jereni Bird Jerending Rokarth Firebull Vari Grey Fox Squat Oak - not sure whether this is Sambari

Congratulations on going hard copy with Black Spear, 10/22/21. I just ordered my copy.

combine that with the Sacred Time rolls pushing bandits into poverty with a significant chance that their children die - see p. RQiG - pp422-423 - It seems to me that they should really consider the choices of being hardcore bandits vs. going into exile far enough away that the kinslaying is not known. Yes, take that advice about asking the players what their characters want to do.

That's a little off topic, but- Always thought it was an avenue of trade rather than a manufacturing center. Ducks taking cargo all up and down that river system in Sartar, anywhere from Nochet to past Jonstown. They get paid for that. There must also be agriculture and aquaculture. but you'd have to imagine some exportable products there. Sort of like Real World Springdale, ARK, which is home to at least three big trucking companies, and there are also an awful lot of chicken farmers there.

I'm not much of a movie fan, certainly not enough of one to have a mental library of the ones that don't work. And if i did, why would I show you a crappy one? So here is another good one. Now here is another, very different, movie with 100% non combat interactions. What do you see happening here? I think I might be able to translate the bits of this movie into Runequest mechanics, the whole thing from end to end, not just this scene. It also reminds me of a heroquest. There are several more associated clips from the movie on Youtube- Anyway, It's a wonderful life seems to me to have 'stations" like a heroquest. That is NOT true of all dramatic scenes and movies, so let's not try to force all non-combat interactions into the same mold. I see a lot of room to make 'social' rather than 'combat" role[playing that occupies a fair amount of time and occupies the players' minds, far beyond "take one roll and then we'll go on to the next combat.". And i think it can be done with a mix of roleplaying (the players must make decisions, have and execute a plan) and Runequest mechanics: Skill rolls, opposed rolls, plus multi-step persuasion tracking and /or multi-target influencing, depending on the story line and game situation. To me the tricks are (1) To succinctly give a limited set of models for the GM and players to follow, so we are not writing a whole new 300 page book which they won't take the time to read, (2) to put the 'social" and persuasion action choices into the players' repertory, if it isn't already there. And as I observed in the previous thread,in the absence of models to follow both the players' and the GMs' openness to this depends on their life experience. So few people do party politics in real life! (3) to execute this with enough drama that it is interesting. This is something that i see a lot of GMs, writers, and directors do better than I, so I'm here to learn. For extra credit, here is a quiz: Who better represents the American fighting hero, John Wayne or Jimmy Stewart?

As far as i can see, we have competing theories of what is dramatic and engaging for the players. It it lots of die rolls? it it hit locations? Is it "dramatic" action, that is rising action and a final resolution? And we keep coming back to combat examples. But the topic is non-combat "social" things that are engaging. And using movies for examples of "dramatic"- Let's cast our minds to some non-combat moves and non-combat scenes. How about the jury scenes of "Twelve angry men"? What would you say happened there? Some sort of climactic moment? It didn't have hit locations.

Thoughts: As others have indicated, what got them outlawed and by whom makes a lot of difference. Your bandits have a choice; Stay near home, or leave and try to get a new start where they are not outlawed. For instance go to Prax - or north to Peloria - or south to Esrolia - hell, catch a ship to Pamaltela and work their way as rowers!. What do the players want to do? How far do they have to go before they outrun their Reputation? So your bandits capture someone who is On the Other Side and yet is Ransomable. How do they go about collecting the ransom? Will the folks paying the ransom try to double cross them, or to hunt them down afterward?

The first thing is for the GM to be open to having non-combat actions be significant to the adventure. Given that - it's probably good not to invent too much in the way of mechanics, not good to just bulk up the rules. But just as rules about how to handle fighting tend to put fighting in the GMs and players' minds, some advice on how to handle non-combat things is good for actually having non-combat interactions. Here is one such piece of advice that I appreciate: Andrew Logan Montgomery proposes a way of handling roleplayed persuasion of individuals , on pp 98-100 of The Company of the Dragon. This is guidance for methodical GM'ing. This can obviously also be applied to persuading groups: First, establish the NPC's starting resistance on a 6-point scale from Hostile to Enamored. Assign Points of Resistance to the points on that scale, he suggests 10 to 0. Hostile is 10, Neutral is 6, Enamored is 0. The PC's or PCs' goal is to reduce resistance to 0. At 0 = enamored, the NPC(s) do what you ask. If Resistance ever rises to 11+, it's over, the character is not going to be persuaded. GMs get general advice on pacing; Use your own judgment and sense of pacing (how many rolls per hour, how many persuasive interactions per session). Trying to persuade someone to marry you is probably a multi-session thing. The player(s) have to decide and announce what they are going to do to persuade. The GM decides what skill or skills apply to the player character's action(s). Examples already on the character sheet are charm, bargain, orate, lore, fast talk, intimidate.... Augments can be done. Bribery and gift-giving are not covered in ALM's advice. But considering the gift-giving in the background material, I would personally suggest that the GM assign augment % to the impact of a gift, just as there is a % bonus to worship from various sizes of sacrifice to a god (RQiG p.316). Use some judgment here: A big gift to a poor person would be a small gift to a king, so scale the impact according to the target's annual income. And remember, kings and chiefs may expect a suitable gift when you come to see them, even before you begin to persuade. And some are greedy, some are not, so giving no gift to a greedy king would be a negative augment. Anyway, after a little role play the player now rolls vs. that skill%, and the result adds to or subtracts from the target's Resistance: +4 for a fumble, -4 for a critical, other values in between: failure is 0, doesn't move the needle. A simple success is -1. A special is -2. ALM's advice is that this should be handled a little differently for a bargaining situation where an agreement is being hammered out and "it's about getting the better end of the deal": In this case both sides will make their series of persuasion rolls. If one side's Resistance is 8 when the other side reaches 0, then the deal is a disaster for the disadvantaged side (that is, the 8 side didn't make concessions and the 0 side did.) . If it ends at, for example, 1 and 0 then the agreement is not one-sided.