Squaredeal Sten

I'm not on the inside, so don't know for sure, but god-talker seems to me to be unnecessary for Issaries. At least according to the old RQ2 references: Cult compendium says: "Temples to Issaries are rarely found except in cities or other major trade centers. Temples may also be set up in any place where many merchants temporarily meet. In either of these cases there may be more than one priest, and in such cases there will be an election among all the Initiates present to select one Chief Priest among them to be the High Priest. This must be renewed at least every year in a city, and in a temporary market place the status does not last more than a week at most. " and on the next page, "No special place is revered by the Issaries cult, although many places claim to be an ancient market where Issaries or his sons once stopped. These spots are all markets, and often have some ancient statue of the god nearby, but they are places of power only when a priest of Issaries is present. The cult considers every place where they make a Market Circle or store goods to be a seat of worship. " so what I get out of this is - the market spell makes a market and that is your Issaries temple [I would really like an authoritatve statement as to whether for Issaries the Create Market spell is also a Sanctify. It doesn't say that in RBOM.] but that last sentence says to me that that the Issaries market is their temple. - and the initiates present elect the chief priest from among the priests present, if there is more than one candidate. - and an "Issaries shrine" isn't really a shrine without an Issaries priest present. I don't think it says that if there is no priest an initiate can step up and be a "priest" for other purposes - though I can see room to interpret it that way, and if it's time to worship you should worship. It is not stated that an elected initiate would be a god-talker - but for the purposes of the cult that may not matter much. Nor is it stated that the market is a shrine instead of a temple. As a GM I would be tempted to determine how many Issaries initiates and lay members are present or are nearby, to ask if they have worshiped there recently, and to categorize the market's magical potential in accord with the site/shrine/temple size rules on p. 284 of RQiG. That would let an Issaries priest do rune spell teaching in a market of a city. "Holy Days of the cult are any market days, but like most Lightbringers cults they especially revere the Sacred Time, and set aside many days there to worship, especially Wild Day." so basically on any market day you can do your Issaries temple functions at the market. If you need a week for Rune Spell learning in a smaller or weekly market, in my game the ceremony can be concluded or started on "market day" / Wildday. YGMV, but an authoritative answer would be good..

Good point, since there are cults without priests but only rune lords, "Priest" above should be read as "Rune priest or Rune lord". i completely accept that correction. As for the limitations on God Talkers, if a god talker is operating a shrine and someone learns a spell there, I'd say the god talker must have given whatever assistance was required. And in the case of spirit spells, p.278 specifically says that they can teach spirit magic spells. But I just accept the more general limitations on god talkers on p.278, like not getting an allied spirit, and not being able to initiate new members of their cults.

RBOM does still have that wording. But Extension is the only spell that has that disadvantage. Other spells of indefinite duration, like Warding (RBOM p.102) and its relative Create Market (RBOM p.36) do not: and both of these last until the wands are removed. It appears it even persists past the caster's death. So I believe that the "still in use" provision is unique to Extension, and is not part of Sanctify, nor should it extend to all rune magic in general.

It's specifically stated that you can still take more rune points if you know all the cult spells. RQiG Page314, left column, third paragraph: "It is entirely possible that an adventurer has obtained access to all the cult's special rune magic .... In that case, no new spells are obtained... but the rune points pool still increases. This is especially likely with cults to minor gods." The limit of rune points with a given cult is the character's CHA (p.313)

Actually it was updated and defined clearly in the Red Book of Magic p.76. "When the ceremonies cease, the spell effects expire." And "Cult members can perform ceremonies within a Sanctified area as if it were a temple, such as replenishing Rune points." So it doesn't require Extension. As far as I understand it, the rune points are expended when a rune spell is cast - where do you find the cannot-recover rule?

Makes sense to me. A sensible Initiate should welcome the priest's expertise in doing the rite right. After all he's the pro - do you go to a dentist, or fill your own teeth? But in that case in my draft shrine/temple re-opening scenario, outlined above, the site would lack that expertise - so would you say the rune spells available there would be more limited under the new management? However there is another aspect to this; Glorantha's 'bronze age' feel. What I have read and heard of Real World bronze age religions - and iron age too, extending into Christianity - is that priests were the intermediaries between god and man. That was just the assumption. For the ordinary man there was little of this "personal relationship with god" stuff: That is mostly from the European Christian reformation, it's 1400 AD thinking and not 4000 BC. A prophet or a hero might have a "personal relationship" with / be favored by his god. If you weren't claiming to be a prophet or a hero, keep your mouth shut. (Of course we know our Gloranthan player characters are all heroes in waiting.) So the idea that you would be just as well off if you left the priest out of your ceremony or sacrifice would strike the Bronze Age person as absurd. Everyone knew it didn't work that way. You might just as well leave the prayers out of your physician's prescription! I am not saying that your bronze age / iron age man couldn't see sacrificing if there was no priest and there was a need. The head of a household or of a clan might take that role for a family rite. I am definitely not saying that there was necessarily some super magical qualification for a priest: i know that for the Romans, election was enough: If you were elected priest of Jupiter, you did the job. No theological seminary appears to have been necessary. Just being of the Patrician class and duly elected and anointed. https://www.grunge.com/287952/inside-julius-caesars-connection-to-priesthood/   And in other (monarchist) polities where king was also priest, it appears that royalty was achieved in the usual ways: inheritance, politics, and violence; not in a seminary.

Done:

What can an initiate not do without a priest? Or without a temple or at least a shrine? Under RQiG? Picking this up from another thread, where it was off-topic from the original post- It seemed to me that the answer is: A] Initiate people. B] Teach magic (not ignoring the fact that a shaman can also teach spirit magic), which I (but not everyone) think includes the Rune magic sequence in which an initiate sacrifices POW and learns a new rune spell as well as increasing rune points.. C] It is not necessary to have a priest to replenish rune points, nor to be at a temple, though it certainly helps.. It's in four places in RQiG, but it's all there, see if you agree with my reading: The hard part of Replenishment is not the location, it's the day: On p.315: "...in worship of the deity at a temple, sanctified area, or other holy place to the deity on a holy day and succeeding with a Worship skill roll and an expenditure of at least 2 magic points." The "on a holy day" part does not seem to me to be severable from the other requirements. So that seems to me to be the most restrictive part of the formula. Not that I haven't participated in fudging it in a game, but that's Rules As Written. Location seems to me to be easy: (pp.244-246) A worship ritual must be held at a sanctified place, either a shrine/temple etc OR use the Sanctify rune spell. And you can replenish rune points on Sanctified ground or at a Site, as well as at the bigger shrines and Temples. The unique thing that the temple does for you is allow you to sacrifice POW to get additional rune points and learn new rune spells. (p.284). A shrine lets you get access to one specific rune spell. So it seems to me you can't do this at all at a Sanctified roadside spot. The Sanctify spell description specifically says you can use it (the Sanctified location) to replenish rune points. The worship roll requirement is not really very restrictive: A temple and/or holy day and/or sacrifice allows improving the % you roll to succeed in worship (p.315-316). Pp.245-246 say you can also improve that % chance of success in worship (or any other magical activity) by using meditation OR ritual preparation (but not both). P.315 goes on to say that even on a worship failure, you get at least some rune points replenished in some circumstances: In Sacred time; on a high holy day, or a seasonal holy day for your own cult. (But only at worship with your own cult, not with associated cults - that takes success in the Worship.) Nowhere do I see a clear requirement that only priests can lead worship. We know god-talkers also can, and god-talkers can be initiates (p.278). And if you read the description of initiates p.274-275, it says they must observe the cult holy days and sacrifice magic points during rituals, and they are required to take a role in rituals and the cult will teach them worship. Good teaching involves practical exercise, and it's the worshipper's rolls that gets them MP replenishment, not the priest's roll. So clearly the mere initiate does perform worship. Does the absence of a priest get the initiate off the hook for this duty of worship? What authorities seem to be unique to priests are that they can initiate; and can teach spells, including teaching sacrifice of POW for rune spells. And some rune spells seem phrased such that only priests will have them. It seems to me to be implied that priests will be the teachers of cult lore and worship skills, and will lead and organize Sacred Time ceremonies. P.275 "the secrets of the deity are revealed to the world through the priesthood." And i note the addition by Baron Wufraed, that "You missed page 184 under "sacrifice" (italics mine) So, assuming a character with basic Worship skill (5% base, typical +20% from cult initiation, +5 for skill/characteristic bonus => 30%), 2MP required for Worship, 7 additional MPs for %increase, gives one a total %age of 100 -- you'd have to really fumble the roll to fail. For many characters most of the MP sacrificed will be regained by the end of the Worship day. Addendum: One could interpret the clause on page 185 ("An adventurer gets a bonus to their Worship skill by performing the ritual on a date sacred to the deity:") to imply that one /could/ perform the Worship on ANY day of the week." And that same date point is where I participated in fudging it - Shiningbrow is not so sure as I that a priest is needed to sacrifice POW / learn rune magic: "I'm not sure that's true. In looking at p313, there is no mention of intervention or support by a priest (or other Rune Master). Also, I think it unlikely that shrines that give Rune Spells will usually be supported by a priest, and thus the Initiate is probably going to have to do it all themselves. (Yes, this is mixing the RP increase and the gaining of a new spell)" RQiG P.284 seems to me to be the key: that's where the book talks about gaining access to new rune spells 'at the temple", and the shrine clause is lower down. I do admit that doesn't say "with instruction by a priest". Am I unjustified in extrapolating to rune magic from spirit magic, where p.277 in the chapter on rune cults says about spirit magic "The priest performs a ritual in a holy place... this occupies a week of ritual and training during which nothing else may be done except for eating and sleeping."? I don't think I am unjustified in that extrapolation, because p.313 at the beginning of the rune magic chapter says "A cult member may sacrifice additional points of POW to the deity, increasing the number of Rune points with the deity and gaining greater access to cult special magic. The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer and meditation in the temple. ...." [emphasis is mine]. I admit it doesn't say straight out that a priest supervises and conducts this. But I envision learning a new Rune spell as being trained in the mythical connection to one of your god's deeds involving / acquiring that spell. Maybe that's just me, but I interpret 'in the temple' as not just meaning to be at the physical location, but also involving the instruction available there. It would make an interesting adventure for an adventurer to re-open and rehabilitate a shrine whose priest or god-talker had been killed, overrun by broos and scorpion men. Is the single rune magic spell obtainable there, a function of the site? Or of the priest / god-talker who used to be there? Does the adventurer have to do anything special to become the proprietor of the shrine? It says that to tend a site gives the benefit of replenishing rune points there (p.315). God-talkers "are often the only people to tend shrines" and it seems to me that they need appointment to "vacancies", referred to on p.278. I would think he or she might have to get the blessing of the temple to take up a god-talker position. Is it that way in your Glorantha? But on the other hand, in case of disaster maybe just cleansing the place and resuming sacrifice of MPs there would be enough to restore the shrine to functionality.

Let's not confuse mimeo and ditto. They are different tachnologies! The subcult of Mimeo would take more time to prepare, and more skill to make Mimeo Masters - but also be capable of duplicating many more units. With ditto you have a pretty hard limit of about 300 pages duplicated. And - smoke belching? No, both can be hand cranked. The cult of mimeo could use extensive gangs of slaves to drive their machines.

Both good thoughts about events on the ground during the Great Winter. IMHO the prospect of over-fishing would not slow anyone down when starvation was at hand. It might slow the recovery down a couple of years later. And the whole Great Winter story is about being a step away from starvation, that's very consistent. Yes, I can see Esrolia and southern / coastal Heortland and God Forgot being a lot better off than Sartar during the Great Winter. And people moving toward food, that's natural. Also food in and from Prax, dry though it is . To me, who grew up in El Paso, the reported rainfall in Prax is not bad at all, and substantial agriculture would be practiced near the River of Cradles just as it is on the Real World Rio Grande, while away from the river RW cattle raising is just practiced with more acres per herd beast than in central or south Texas. It is just not true that the whole West Texas / southern New Mexico area is like the Jornada del Muerto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jornada_del_Muerto

Actually 10,000 years was just a round number. But I am aware of an archaeological find here in south Texas that involved an atlatl about 4,000 years old, as well as a bag woven out of plant fibers. And when white men arrived here about 300 years ago and started writing things down, the hunters were using bows. Now, there is noting in that that indicates the atalatl was invented 4,000 years ago, just that it was in use then and outmoded afterward. It seems to me you are correct, the atlatl was in use when modern humans encountered Denisovians, and also very likely when modern humans entered North America. That would indicate the period between invention of the atlatl in Eurasia and the invention of the bow in the Americas (perhaps independent of its invention in Eurasia and Africa) is at least 20,000 years, probably longer. So my 10,000 years is just a round number, it's on the order of 10,000 years - might really be 100,000 between the two inventions, is certainly more than 1,000. There was no patent office then.

Subere; Mother of Xentha so Grandmother of Argan Argar. So would Subere be an associated cult of Argan Argar? Not in Cult Compendium. but.... It would seem to me that at a minimum, Subere would figure in Argan Argar cult lore. Kyger Litor " stepped forth to mate with the Man Rune for her mistress, Subere, also called Hell Darkness. " "Mistress" is the feminine of "master". So that's another Subere mythical connection. So would Subere be an associated cult of Kyger Litor? Not specifically in Cult Compendium. but.... Cult compenduium does say "Other Darkness Deities Trolls can, in general, worship most Darkness deities as associated cults, though they gain no special spells for so doing unless they actually join the other cult. "

RQiG P.284 seems to me to be the key: that's where the book talks about gaining access to new rune spells 'at the temple", and the shrine clause is lower down. I do admit that doesn't say "with instruction by a priest". Am I unjustified in extrapolating to rune magic from spirit magic, where p.277 in the chapter on rune cults says about spirit magic "The priest performs a ritual in a holy place... this occupies a week of ritual and training during which nothing else may be done except for eating and sleeping."? I don't think I am unjustified in that extrapolation, because p.313 at the beginning of the rune magic chapter says "A cult member may sacrifice additional points of POW to the deity, increasing the number of Rune points with the deity and gaining greater access to cult special magic. The sacrifice requires a full week of prayer and meditation in the temple. ...." [emphasis is mine]. I admit it doesn't say straight out that a priest supervises and conducts this. But I envision learning a new Rune spell as being trained in the mythical connection to one of your god's deeds involving / acquiring that spell. Maybe that's just me, but I interpret 'in the temple' as not just meaning to be at the physical location, but also involving the instruction available there. It would make an interesting adventure for an adventurer to re-open and rehabilitate a shrine whose priest or god-talker had been killed, overrun by broos and scorpion men. Is the single rune magic spell obtainable there, a function of the site? Or of the priest / god-talker who used to be there? Does the adventurer have to do anything special to become the proprietor of the shrine? It says that to tend a site gives the benefit of replenishing rune points there (p.315). God-talkers "are often the only people to tend shrines" and it seems to me that they need appointment to "vacancies", referred to on p.278. I would think he or she might have to get the blessing of the temple to take up a god-talker position. Is it that way in your Glorantha? But on the other hand, in case of disaster maybe just cleansing the place and resuming sacrifice of MPs there would be enough to restore the shrine to functionality. Has this gotten too fat from the original 'rune spells vs. spirit spells' intent of the thread/ Should I put it into its own topic? .

I agree - Esrolians streams don't freeze over. Sartar streams might not freeze over often enough for anyone to develop ice fishing skill. Then the Great Winter arrives - what's the chance someone invents ice fishing? RW, nearly none, it's like inventing the bow 10,000 years after you have the atlatl. So ice fishing takes 10,000 years to get there after you invent the fishhook. Does a Gloranthan hero do it and feed his clan during the Great Winter? IMHO, the question is: Can he roll his Devise skill?

OK, so the consensus seems to be that the non-rectangular or oversized warding area will fail, the characters should know in advance that it will fail, and the GM should simply tell the players "Your character knows that smartass munchkin idea won't work" or words to that effect.

It's in four places in RQiG, but it's all there, see if you agree with my reading: The hard part of Replenishment is not the location, it's the day: On p.315: "...in worship of the deity at a temple, sanctified area, or other holy place to the deity on a holy day and succeeding with a Worship skill roll and an expenditure of at least 2 magic points." The "on a holy day" part does not seem to me to be severable from the other requirements. So that seems to me to be the most restrictive part of the formula. Not that I haven't participated in fudging it in a game, but that's Rules As Written. Location seems to me to be easy: (pp.244-246) A worship ritual must be held at a sanctified place, either a shrine/temple etc OR use the Sanctify rune spell. And you can replenish rune points on Sanctified ground or at a Site, as well as at the bigger shrines and Temples. The unique thing that the temple does for you is allow you to sacrifice POW to get additional rune points and learn new rune spells. (p.284). A shrine lets you get access to one specific rune spell. So it seems to me you can't do this at all at a Sanctified roadside spot. The Sanctify spell description specifically says you can use it (the Sanctified location) to replenish rune points. The worship roll requirement is not really very restrictive: A temple and/or holy day and/or sacrifice allows improving the % you roll to succeed in worship (p.315-316). Pp.245-246 say you can also improve that % chance of success in worship (or any other magical activity) by using meditation OR ritual preparation (but not both). P.315 goes on to say that even on a worship failure, you get at least some rune points replenished in some circumstances: In Sacred time; on a high holy day, or a seasonal holy day for your own cult. (But only at worship with your own cult, not with associated cults - that takes success in the Worship.) Nowhere do I see a clear requirement that only priests can lead worship. We know god-talkers also can, and god-talkers can be initiates (p.278). And if you read the description of initiates p.274-275, it says they must observe the cult holy days and sacrifice magic points during rituals, and they are required to take a role in rituals and the cult will teach them worship. Good teaching involves practical exercise, and it's the worshipper's rolls that gets them MP replenishment, not the priest's roll. So clearly the mere initiate does perform worship. Does the absence of a priest get the initiate off the hook for this duty of worship? What authorities seem to be unique to priests are that they can initiate; and can teach spells, including teaching sacrifice of POW for rune spells. And some rune spells seem phrased such that only priests will have them. It seems to me to be implied that priests will be the teachers of cult lore and worship skills, and will lead and organize Sacred Time ceremonies. P.275 "the secrets of the deity are revealed to the world through the priesthood."

Well for the time being in my own campaign, for Dark Season i gave the party some diplomacy (despite the weather) and a minor heroquest. From which some of them picked up some rune magic, this is better than gold. And one strange magic item. However the same issues apply for Storm Season - only worse weather. Anyway, I have questions about ice fishing: How hard is it to bore a hole in the ice without iron tools? How Gloranthan is it, in your opinion? Not for immediate application, I have no fisher players in my campaign.

if GM'ng the '+20% throw javelin" scroll, with no other info? I'd have to define some stuff as the GM before I let them gain that scroll.. I would personally define that one as: Enables the player to do skill Research rolls on the javelin skill, without having to do the Experience rolls to succeed, (but having to do a read/write roll to use the scroll). And for several seasons of this Research to gain +1d20% on javelin skill per season up to a maximum total of +20%, but not to exceed 75% skill before characteristic bonuses. In contrast to the usual skill Research roll of 1d6-2%, this one has no downside: if you roll a 1 your skill doesn't go down. That's how I would do it. YGMV.

As far as I can see, they would be used in Researching a given skill or characteristic improvement. Instead of your character searching through a library or observing other people who display what you want, then theorizing successfully or unsuccessfully about how to improve, these scrolls are right on the money for what you want and provide the distilled experience of an expert in (fill in the blank) who wrote them to tell you exactly how to improve. And you don't have to find and hire an expert as you would for Training. So to me, they would provide a boost to your character's skill or characteristic Research [IAW pp.417-418 of RQG]. It would probably make x% of skill improvement a sure thing, up to a maximum of 75%; alternatively allow skill improvement of 1d6% or 1d8% or even 1d10% improvement instead of the standard 1d6-2% (Yes, ordinary research can give you a skill loss!). Or characteristic STR, CON, DEX, or CHA improvement of 1D3 instead of 1D3-1, up to species max. This Research would still take just as long, though. The book can tell you how to lift weights to improve your STR, but I expect it's not magical, so your muscles still take two seasons to improve. Specifics depend on the source / the GM's generosity.

What do you imagine most Sartartites, or Esrolians or Tarshites for that matter, doing in Dark season and Storm season? In Sea season the farmers sow, in Earth season they reap. In Sea season the caravans set forth, in Earth season they return. (Do you want to be on the road in a snowstorm?) Herders lead the herds forth in sea season, pasture them in high pastures in Fire season, bring them back down in Earth season, put then in the barn and feed them in freezing weather - or slaughter excess animals in Dark season. Fishers probably fish a lot less when the weather is stormy and their fingers freeze on the oars and rigging. Obviously seasonality doesn’t affect crafter occupations that are done indoors – or occupations that have to be done regardless of the weather. Or merchants with a shop, in contrast to the caravaners. Or scholars and librarians. It would be a good time for entertainers. Yes I have read p.140 of RQiG. “Spouting cheerful stories before their crackling fires” is good for a while, but seems to me to be a recipe for cabin fever after 8-16 weeks. Yes, prepare for Sacred Time – more in Storm season though. I imagine more cult instruction would be done in Dark Season – though the RQiG training rules don’t give extra rolls for winter. I imagine farmers would do a lot of home craft production: Weave in bad weather when you gardened in good weather. Folks who use stone tools can knap flint. Drill holes in shells for beads. Fishers can make nets. If you have the skill this is the time to make arrows. Fix the plow. Dig a new privy, until the ground freezes. Cut wood for that crackling fire? No, you’d better do that in warm weather and give it time to dry out. Green wood smokes too much. Hunt? As long as the weather isn’t too bad. Orlanth initiates who can sense weather changes will be safer than others hunting in these seasons. - What else?

Considering that the instructional scroll can be re-sold after the purchaser (or looter) does his or her training - that scroll should be worth more than the standard training cost for the skill in question. Almost twice as much: You get the value of the training and then you get your cash too. Probably worth maximum value to a Lankhor Mhy who can copy it - or to the LM temple who can set an industrial process going. Wouldn't your player whose character is low CHA like "How to make friends and influence people" in his native script? How much is he willing to pay, just as an experiment?

I have to confess that you have lost me. There is a great opportunity for someone to publish a well illustrated treatise on Gloranthan astronomy in the Jonstown Compendium. Chap 1: The Gloranthan celestial bodies. Chap2: The associations and meanings of the observed celestial bodies. Chap 3: The Gloranthan night sky, by season. Chap. 4: How they move. Chap. 5: Challenges of Gloranthan celestial navigation and calendrical prediction.

Now here is a question for everybody: let's grant for a minute that the Warding area won't work. Either you don't like the shape, or the players did the math wrong and it's really a 120 sq. meter box. Or a 1000 sq. meter box. How are you going to GM that Warding spell's failure? I can see a couple of different ways; Will you allow them to put up the corner markers, spend the rune point - and it doesn't warn or protect them? Will you tell them the rune spell failed, rune point not spent? (if so, will you give them a hint as to why?)

I believe that is the wrong way to frame the question. It's not necessary for the universe to consciously calculate area or to tell you in words if you ask. I have a counter-example for you to consider: Buoyancy. How much weight can you put into a boat or on a raft before it sinks? it is possible to compute volume and weight, calculate density, and answer the question. But the universe is not doing that. Density is a human concept, invented so that humans can predict what the universe actually does. We can have a rule on buoyancy that gives a density formula. We might have such a rule in RQG if the issue came up much. But in the absence of such a rule I wouldn't allow a player to load a canoe to the gunwales with lead and float down the river standing on it. (The issue of how much cargo - does come up: it came up a few days ago in a RQG game i am in, how much cargo can I get into one wagon and on two pack animals, or do I need two wagons? The GM told me it looks like I need two wagons.) In the case of Warding or Market, we do have a rule that says there is a limit to the spell's area of effect and here is how to calculate that limit. That's just saying there is a magical-natural limit,and it's knowable for game purposes. It's not saying that the universe is consciously doing a calculation and will give you an answer in words. The canoe either floats or sinks, the warding either works or it doesn't. The universe will be consistent in both cases. It is possible to calculate the result in both cases. But before people could calculate buoyancy, the boat still sank or floated.

"If you consider the ancient Greek legends..." Actually if you just consider the Real World history and the archaeology. For example in at least one city, displaying phallic symbols (sculptures) outside your house! That's definitely farther than any of us would go in the Real world today. https://www.mykonosgreece.com/the-phallus-phallos-in-ancient-greece/ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259468154_Penile_representations_in_ancient_Greek_art So no, an unvarnished display of ancient Greek legend OR reality would not be acceptable for a juvenile audience today.