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Rules Question: (Group) Extended Contest


mikyra

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Hello together,

it's the the stupid German again.
This time I am stuck trying to figure out the details of (Group) Extended Contests.

Trying to understand how things work here, there are still two questions, I didn't find an answer for.


QUESTION 1: Is it possible to Augment an Assist?

QUESTION 2: How to determine the Level of Victory in a Group Extended Contest?

It seems there either is some information missing, or there is another contradiction in the rules given on page 84 and page 82.

page 84

The section "Determining Climactic Consequences" here reads:

Quote

To determine the winning side’s victory level for a climactic scene, cross-reference with the second-worst consequence among the defeated opponents. If there is only one opponent, use his consequence of defeat.

The section "Determining Rising Action Consequences" on page 84 is missing any information how to resolve the LoV.

Using this information to cross-reference, I would:

(1) in a Climactic scene:
   (a) with more than one opponent: use the second-worst consequence among defeated opponents
   (b) otherwise: use the consequence of the only opponent present

(2) in a Rising Action scene:
  * scratch my head as no information is given

page 82

The box "Consequences and Group Extended Contests" reads:

If you win more than one exchange in either Rising Action or Climactic contests, and then need to determine a final level of victory [..] use the victory level you attained against the hero who contested against you with the highest target number.

Using this information, I would:
(1) BOTH in a Climatic and a Rising Action scene:
    use the LoV won against the opponent with the highest target number
 

 

 

Edited by mikyra
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7 hours ago, mikyra said:

QUESTION 1: Is it possible to Augment an Assist?

There's no explicit prohibition. I allow it in my games (and also allow bumps by Hero Points to Assists).

7 hours ago, mikyra said:

QUESTION 2: How to determine the Level of Victory in a Group Extended Contest?

It seems there either is some information missing, or there is another contradiction in the rules given on page 84 and page 82.

In a Rising Action scene, the results occur on an individual-by-individual basis, not as a total group.

So, you're simply looking at what each contest resulted in and then determining the outcome for each individual. 

In a Climactic scene, you go through and summarize all the resolution points against each individual.

For instance, keeping it focused on a couple PC's, let's say Gavren and his alynx Bobab are fighting three broo. Gavren is fighting two broo, so you're tracking two contests. Bobab is fighting the other broo. Gavren kills one broo (brings RP to 6 with say a difference of 3) and Bobab kills the other broo (brings RP to 5 with a difference of 1). Gavren drives off the last broo (it's RP's at 4 and Gavren at 3). The results show that Gavren is Hurt (as the second contest has difference = 1) while Bobab is Hurt (difference = 1).

If you have the same fight in Climactic scene, you total all the RP's for both Gavren and Bobab.  Gavren has 6, Bobab has 4. Gavren is Injured, Bobab is Impaired.

There's also a Winning Side consequence.  The second-worse result for the broo was Death, therefore the Victory Level was a Complete Victory. 

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8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Gavren drives off the last broo (it's RP's at 4 and Gavren at 3). The results show that Gavren is Hurt (as the second contest has difference = 1) while Bobab is Hurt (difference = 1).

Sorry, why did this contest end? Shouldn't it end only after 5RP against either side?

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16 hours ago, mikyra said:

QUESTION 2: How to determine the Level of Victory in a Group Extended Contest?

Reading the rules and by experience I would say that in GEC you determine the level of victories per opponent. It says in the rules (p. 80) "The group extended contest ends as soon as there are no active participants on one side of the conflict. The side with one or more participants left standing wins. Consequences to all participants are then determined." The individual level of victories (or defeats) are then decided by the climactic or raising consequences. I think this same idea is present in the GEC example (ending in p. 98).

I see that you are trying to find out what is the overall level of victory of the GEC (as we can do in Simple Contest, Group Simple Contest and Single Extended Contest). But do you really need that information, though? For example in the Hero and his Alynx vs three Broos the hero-side wins if the wins are two against one (so two broos defeated and one broo won). Then you just decide what are the final level of victories for the Hero and the Alynx and roleplay accordingly. The last broo probably (even if he won his contest) runs away.

Referencing my example in the other thread of the heroes trying to get pass the Lunars I devised a Group Extended Contest with two "opponents". One opponent was the abstract resistance of them just getting past the lunars. So winning this opponent they get to their goal. The other opponent was if the exchange with the Lunars gets bloody. They could score any combination of these and get different result.

Win-Win: They get past the Lunars and don't make themselves enemy of Lunars at the same time
Win-Lose: They butcher the Lunars and have to hide from them in future events
Lose-Win: They try to get pass the Lunars but are blocked. The exchange is still friendly and no harm is done.
Lose-Lose: Worst case. There is a fierce fight and they kill Lunars but are driven away.

In above case there really isn't final level of victory for the overall GEC. This is my way of thinking HQ and using the abstract opponents idea.

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3 hours ago, jrutila said:

Sorry, why did this contest end? Shouldn't it end only after 5RP against either side?

The broo ran away?... 

Perhaps not obvious, but you can discontinue a contest going against you, or break away from one to take other action.  In larger melees, this can occur more often. For instance, one character may be under attack by multiple foes and is close to losing while two others are fighting one major foe. One of the two latter figures might break over to help the struggling companion and engage the other figures.  It can get very fluid and you need to track each individual set of contests.

2 hours ago, jrutila said:

But do you really need that information, though?

Only if you want to bring forward some Benefit of Victory to some future encounter or action (i.e. give a bonus or penalty).

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Thanks a lot! Things seem to get clearer now.

Yes, of course I made the mistake to miss the distinction
  "per oponent vs overall" or "individual-by-individual vs total group"
both of you mentioned.

On page 84 it reads "the winning side’s victory level", so I guess the method explained there would only be used in the "overall" or "total group" case.

Or in other words to determine the LoV, I would:
 (1) use the box on page 82 to assign "per opponent" aka "individual-by-individual" LoV
 (2) use the information on page 84 to assign "overall" aka "total group" LoV

In this case information how to assig "total group" LoV during a Rising Action would still be missing.
But I agree, it is the "individual-by-individual" LoV that is a lot more interesting.

While I could follow the example given by @jajagappa, there still is another question, that due to broo 3 escaping from combat, I couldn't find out about.
I will try to demonstrate it with an example.

Example

Our hero discovers a Dark Troll and a Trolling trying to steal supplies from the larder. Of course he wants to chase them away.
Let's break the conflict down with two pairings:

Hero       1 W      Dark Troll  20
 -3 MOP     18      Trolling    14


I understand that both SoA and BoV are resolved at the end of the contest.
Yet I am not sure how to do this correctly.

QUESTION 3: How to assign State of Adversity (SoA) in the following scenario?

Let's imagine the contest ended like this:

Hero ||||    Dark Troll  ||||
Hero ||||    Trolling    ||||

Resolution in a Climactic Action is quite easy here.
I sum up the RP adding an additional RP on the losing side and cross reference with the table.

 Hero       4 + 4     -> dying
 Dark Troll 5 + 1    -> injured
 Trolling   5 + 1    -> injured


But in a Rising Action a problem arises.
This time I take into account the RP difference of all pairings in which one participant was eliminated from the contest.

 Hero vs Dark Troll = 1  -> Looser: Hurt  Winner: Hurt
 Hero vs Trolling   = 1  -> Looser: Hurt  Winner: Hurt

Cross referencing with the table it is quite easy to find out, that both the Dark Troll and the Trolling suffer an SoA Hurt.
But what about the hero? Does he
   (a) suffer an SoA Hurt twice?
   (b) suffer an SoA Hurt once - because only the contest against the opponent with the highest target number is taken into account?


QUESTION 4: How to assign Benefit of Victory (BoV) in the following scenario?

This time let's imagine the contest ended like this:

Hero ||    Dark Troll ||||
Hero ||    Trolling   |||| ||

I guess in this case the box on page 82 would apply.
So I would only take the pairing with the Dark Troll into account?

So in a Climactic Action I would follow the chain:

  loosers RP -> loosers SoA -> winners LoV -> BoV
     5+1     ->   injured   ->   major     -> +6

And in a Rising Action just lookup the RP difference

     5-2  ->  minor -> +3

 

Edited by mikyra
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First of all, it is Trollkin.

21 minutes ago, mikyra said:

QUESTION 3: How to assign State of Adversity (SoA) in the following scenario?

I would say in Rising action it is the option (b) because of p. 82 box. So Hero suffers Hurt only once.

 

27 minutes ago, mikyra said:

QUESTION 4: How to assign Benefit of Victory (BoV) in the following scenario?

I think you got it right.

 

One point to clarify of HQ. Remember the contest is always about what happens to the Heroes. The Climactic Action chain for Hero victory is only for finding out the Level of Victory. Even though it now reads that the Dark Troll is injured you should still think of the Major Victory and what does that mean. The Troll does not necesserily get injured in the process. So, always from the hero point of view.

 

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Of course it is a Trollkin !

"Trolling" is the German name translators of works like "Einführung in Glorantha" (Introduction to Glorantha)  came up with.
Just like a German "Drachenmolch" in fact is a Dragonewt.

Unfortunately writing up the example I forgot to translate the German "Trolling" back to an original "Trollkin". :)

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On 1/24/2020 at 8:07 PM, jrutila said:

So, always from the hero point of view.

Thanks for reminding me of this fact.

While the general idea is really nice and simplifies a lot of things – e.g. order in a Group Extended Contest and application of Multi Opponent Penalties to name just a few – I guess it will still take some time for me to get used to it.

Coming from other systems, I still find myself caught in a trap looking for symmetry that isn't meant to be there, from time to time.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

It may seem odd to answer ones own questions, but just in case someone else stumbles across the same problem, I decided to do it nonetheless.

On 1/24/2020 at 7:33 PM, mikyra said:

QUESTION 3: How to assign State of Adversity (SoA) in the following scenario?

 

Reading the box on page 82 again, I found the following piece of information.

Quote

In a Rising Action contest, if you win more than one exchange, you can theoretically be hurt multiple times—once for each contest you win with a difference between results of 1.

So the correct answer is option (a): During a Rising Action the hero would suffer the SoA Hurt twice.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK guys, so here is another oddity.

This time it is about Disengagement in a Group Extended Contest.

source 1: The box "Disengagement in Group Extended Contests" (page 81) reads:

   Original scores remain intact if you renter a group extended contest after having disengaged from it [...]


source 2: The text of the section "Disengaging" (page82) reads:

   In a climactic scene, however Resolution Points scored during contests you disengaged from are still taken into account when determining consequences.
   In the case of a group contest, consequences against you are determined as soon as you disengage [...]

 

Putting the information of both sources together the following scenario seems to look rather strange to me.

Scenario: Hero A and his teammates are fighting a group of Dark Trolls in a Group Extended Contest.

  • in round 2: Things seem to turn out bad for Hero A, so he decides to disengage.
    Hero A    Dark Troll
    ||||      ||

    According to source 2 Hero A immediately suffers SoA Impaired
  • in round 5: Things seem to turn out even worse for Hero A's teammates, so he decides to rejoin the contest, trying to take out the Dark Troll once again.
    According to source 1 Hero A's score remains intact.
    Hero A    Dark Troll
    ||||      ||
  • in round 7: Hero A manages to remove his opponent from the contest without taking a further scratch.
    Hero A    Dark Troll
    ||||      |||| |
  • in round 8: The last opponent of Hero A and his teammates is eliminated from the contest.
    Ouch! Hero A suffers another SoA Impaired from the score that stayed intact.

QUESTION: Is disengaging from and rejoining a Group Extended Contest really meant to be handled this way?

Edited by mikyra
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5 hours ago, mikyra said:

Ouch! Hero A suffers another SoA Impaired from the score that stayed intact.

It's not "another" impairment. Hero A is Impaired at the point of disengagement. Subsequent activities (including re-entering the combat) have a -6 penalty.

Hero A's final total at the end of the combat is still at 4 as they took no further damage from Dark Troll, so they simply remain Impaired.

Now if Hero A came back into the fight, but fought Great Troll instead, the results of the fight with Dark Troll remain as-is (even if someone else kills the Dark Troll).

The result say in round 8 is the following:

Hero A    Great Troll
||||      |||| |

In this case Hero A has a result of 4 vs. Dark Troll and a result of 4 vs. Great Troll, for a total of 8. That's much worse - Hero A is now Dying (but it was a great and heroic deed!).

Does that help clarify?

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Thanks a lot. Things seem to make perfect sense now.

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It's not "another" impairment.

It was exactly this mistake I made, missing the fact that the only idea of determining consequences as soon as a hero disengages is to make him suffer a (possibly lower than the final) penalty early. 

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1 hour ago, mikyra said:

It was exactly this mistake I made, missing the fact that the only idea of determining consequences as soon as a hero disengages is to make him suffer a (possibly lower than the final) penalty early. 

Once a hero disengages, they can take other (non-direct combat) actions, so this highlights that they may be doing so while Hurt or Impaired (e.g. could be adding a magical Assist such as healing).

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It seems I am in trouble again.

This time I am trying to figure out how to treat the "losers" add 1 to the Resolution Points scored against them rule in case of Disengagement during a Climactic Action.


QUESTION 1: In an Extended Contest does a disengaged participant suffer the additional RP, because he loses the contest instantly?

QUESTION 2: In a Group Extended Contest does the last participant standing suffer the additional RP if he disengages, because he makes his team lose instantly?

QUESTION 3: In a Group Extended Contest, does a participant, whos team loses the contest a couple of rounds after his disengagement suffer the additional RP, because he belongs to the losing side?

 

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10 hours ago, mikyra said:

QUESTION 1: In an Extended Contest does a disengaged participant suffer the additional RP, because he loses the contest instantly?

QUESTION 2: In a Group Extended Contest does the last participant standing suffer the additional RP if he disengages, because he makes his team lose instantly?

QUESTION 3: In a Group Extended Contest, does a participant, whos team loses the contest a couple of rounds after his disengagement suffer the additional RP, because he belongs to the losing side?

It's a group effect. After the entire Group Extended Contest is done, and you've figured out the RP against each of the losing participants, add +1 to the result for each of them. They suffer the result because they are the losing side.

A participant who has disengaged is presumably still potentially active (i.e. could rejoin the fight because they are not yet at 5 RP in any one contest).

So you have to determine what the result of the disengaging participant is. If they ran away, and now out of the action, and there is no other action to perform, then the contest is done, losing side is penalized, and the character who ran away should be penalized too because their side lost.

If they are still present, what does the opposing side do? Kill them to finish the contest? Ask them to surrender? Etc. There's some final decision needed to conclude the contest. Once that is done, then the losing group is penalized, including the disengaged character.

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