Wraiths in Bestiary

[GAZZA]

There appears to be a bit of "versionitis" for wraiths; spirit combat is no longer MP vs MP as is implied by the Wraith description:

"If the wraith overcomes the victim’s magic points, the victim loses 1D3 magic points and must take double the result as damage to a random part of his body"

It isn't clear here whether or not the first attack (versus CON, and reducing STR, CON, or INT) is on the resistance table, but the fact that the Wraith has a listed Spirit Combat skill implies that the subsequent rounds are normal spirit combat (except that it does hit point damage as well). At the very least this is quite unclear; it appears that the RQ3 description here needs a bit of tidying up.

[Diana Probst]

I've read that as an ordinary spirit combat, and the first time the wraith does damage, it has that special result instead; the chance to overcome the adventurer's MP.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Diana Probst

[Akhôrahil]

Also note how the attacks take place on SR 1. This makes it seem like it's not actually Spirit Combat (which always happens on SR 12). On the other hand, its attacks are described as "Sprit Combat", using (one would think) the normal Spirit Combat rules.

This is either an unedited remnant of an earlier version, or a major deviation from the regular rules. It doesn't really make a lot of sense as written - anyone attacking it in Spirit Combat will strike at SR 12 under the normal system with an opposed roll, which means that it could do damage twice in a round (sr1 and SR12), but then, it doesn't have a printed Spirit Combat damage...

This is what I think makes sense: ignore all the parts about MP vs MP and SR 1, and just say that it does 1D3 Spirit Combat damage and twice that to a location. 

It's still not clear how the first round effect interacts with Spirit Combat, though.

Gods, what a mess!

Edited March 3, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

You're right, I suspect the wraith's damage on subsequent rounds needs to be re-scaled. I don't know if the increase in Spirit Combat loss (from a flat 1D3 to a more usual 1D6+1) should result in the wraith's damage also doubling.

Actually, I think it's not that bad. The only mistake is "overcomes the victim's magic points" should be "overcomes the victim's Spirit Combat". The "special form" is just 1D3 and 2x that for HP, instead of the normal scaled roll.

Edited March 3, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You're right, I suspect the wraith's damage on subsequent rounds needs to be re-scaled. I don't know if the increase in Spirit Combat loss (from a flat 1D3 to a more usual 1D6+1) should result in the wraith's damage also doubling.

Actually, I think it's not that bad. The only mistake is "overcomes the victim's magic points" should be "overcomes the victim's Spirit Combat". The "special form" is just 1D3 and 2x that for HP, instead of the normal scaled roll.

It's also not obvious how the first-round attack works. Is it separate from Spirit Combat?

[PhilHibbs]

49 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's also not obvious how the first-round attack works. Is it separate from Spirit Combat?

Yes, it's POW vs CON I think from memory. A resistance roll, followed by a variation of spirit combat on subsequent rounds.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, it's POW vs CON I think from memory. A resistance roll, followed by a variation of spirit combat on subsequent rounds.

That would mean that Spirit Combat doesn't happen at all in round one, which seems weird if the PC wants to attack it.

(What makes this weird is that while Spirit Combat has a sensible system, it's a very different kind of system compared to regular combat.)

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

That would mean that Spirit Combat doesn't happen at all in round one, which seems weird if the PC wants to attack it.

(What makes this weird is that while Spirit Combat has a sensible system, it's a very different kind of system compared to regular combat.)

If the PC has some means of initiating Spirit Combat, then they can do that just like they could with any other spirit entity. Like a shade, if it Fearshocks you on round 1, that does not put you in spirit combat. Why should a wraith's special ability do so? It initiates spirit combat on round 2, unless you can start it earlier.

Edited March 4, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If the PC has some means of initiating Spirit Combat, then they can do that just like they could with any other spirit entity.

But in that case, the Wraith gets two chances to hurt you in the round - first the initial first-round attack, and then a chance to win in Spirit Combat.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

But in that case, the Wraith gets two chances to hurt you in the round - first the initial first-round attack, and then a chance to win in Spirit Combat.

Round one, it gets its attack in POW vs CON. You can hit it with a magic weapon or spells.

Round two onwards, spirit combat starts and you can beat down its MPs that way, or hit it with a magic weapon. Or both.

[GAZZA]

I am certainly glad I asked! Wraiths are hardly rare, and I don't believe I would have come up with that from the text. Cheers.

[Akhôrahil]

What it especially brings up is how dubiously the new Spirit Combat rules mesh with the rest of the combat system. Don't get me wrong, the Spirit Combat system of opposed rolls makes every kind of sense, but it doesn't fit very well with the rest of the rules, due to being systematically different.

It might be easier to just say that Spirit Combat is Spirit Combat Attack/Spirit Combat Parry, and so on, just like regular combat.

[PhilHibbs]

18 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

What it especially brings up is how dubiously the new Spirit Combat rules mesh with the rest of the combat system. Don't get me wrong, the Spirit Combat system of opposed rolls makes every kind of sense, but it doesn't fit very well with the rest of the rules, due to being systematically different.

It might be easier to just say that Spirit Combat is Spirit Combat Attack/Spirit Combat Parry, and so on, just like regular combat.

I agree with the sentiment, it would be nice to unify simple rolls, opposed rolls, attack/parry, and spirit combat into one consistent mechanic. In practice it's not easy, otherwise they would have done so.

Spirit combat has always required an opposed roll. It used to be POW vs POW or MP vs MP. Now it's an opposed skill roll, with a clarification for what happens on a tie.

Combat is defend-optional, you can decline or be unable to parry/dodge and the system works just fine. That's why it needs to be different to regular opposed rolls - it needs to work in both modes, opposed and unopposed, and it needs a full page table to compare attack and parry result levels. If spirit combat worked like physical combat, it would have to have that kind of complexity added and I don't see the need, and I like the way that it is mechanically different. It makes it more mysterious and scary. HeroQuest, for me, made the mistake of making all game mechanics identical.

I guess this is drifting off the wraith topic and into something more philosophical.

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I agree with the sentiment, it would be nice to unify simple rolls, opposed rolls, attack/parry, and spirit combat into one consistent mechanic. In practice it's not easy, otherwise they would have done so.

It's quite doable, but it's not doable while keeping the game maximally RQ2. That seems to have been the number one design priority.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[gochie]

The wraith section is definitely a bad copy/paste. Maybe make it deal 1D3 physical damage anytime it deals spiritual damage to the adventurer.

If you want to be real hardcore, make it deal the same amount of physical damage as spiritual damage (probably 1D6+1 or something, which isn't far off of the original numbers).