Inheritance, widow's portion and such issues

[The Wanderer]

Let's say this scenario: a PK has three manors. One is his original one (granted). The other two: one comes with his wife as dowry (heiress) (gifted or granted manor? dunno) and the last one is gifted by the Countess Ellen.

The knight dies, and his eldest son is still too young to inherit and become a knight.

So... my questions are:

1) Is the dowry land of a heiress gifted or granted? Is her dower (widow's portion) equal to his dowry?

2) Assuming Countess Ellen will name as guardian his uncle (the player's knight until the son becomes knight himself), what exactly will be the widower's portion in this case?

3) What portion of the land will inherit the eldest son when he becomes a knight?

4) Will the son inherit his mother's widow's portion when she eventually dies? And what if she marries again?

Thanks in advance.

[Morien]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

1) Is the dowry land of a heiress gifted or granted? Is her dower (widow's portion) equal to his dowry?

Granted, since gifts are not inherited. (Normally, that is. The liege lord may re-gift them to the heir, but a heiress implies it was a grant.)

Her widow's portion is 1/3rd of the dead husband's lands. Since the third one was a gift, that goes back to the liege, meaning that she gets 1/3rd of his original one and 1/3 of her own manor. But note that her guardian (the liege, since obviously the father is already dead, or husband if she remarries) would take control of her portion and take care of her.

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2) Assuming Countess Ellen will name as guardian his uncle (the player's knight until the son becomes knight himself), what exactly will be the widower's portion in this case?

Doesn't change. It is still 1/3+1/3 manors. However, the Countess might simplify things and just tell the uncle to rule both manors and deliver an agreed-upon amount of render (like £4) to the Countess for the widow's upkeep. (£4 = 10% Family Expense + 10% DF from the two £10 manors.)

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3) What portion of the land will inherit the eldest son when he becomes a knight?

 The eldest son (of both the previous PK and the heiress, I assume) will inherit both manors, but the widow mother will keep her widow's portion (1/3+1/3) until she dies. In practice, though, she might seek to relinquish part of those lands to her son so that the son may support a family more easily. (You can do it by dumping the Chaplain in order to support the kids and hoping you don't need a clerk and be able get the spiritual guidance from the village priest...)

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4) Will the son inherit his mother's widow's portion when she eventually dies? And what if she marries again?

Once the widow dies, those lands return to their original owners/heirs. So yes, the son will recover all those lands.

If the widow remarries, the new husband will control the widow's portion and derive income from it, until she dies (see above).

Edited April 3, 2020 by Morien

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Let's say this scenario: a PK has three manors. One is his original one (granted). The other two: one comes with his wife as dowry (heiress) (gifted or granted manor? dunno) and the last one is gifted by the Countess Ellen.

The knight dies, and his eldest son is still too young to inherit and become a knight.

So... my questions are:

1) Is the dowry land of a heiress gifted or granted? Is her dower (widow's portion) equal to his dowry?

If an heiress it is granted. .If she is an heiress then her land came to her from her father and will pass on to her eldest son.

If she is a widow then she isn't an heiress, as  the land came from her husband and her potion (typically 1/3rd the estate) is hers only to provide for her well being. So once the dies the land would pass on to whoever got the rest of the estate. Typically the eldest son of the knight the widow was previously married to. 

 

Now there can be odd situations where a woman can be both, especially if she is in the upper nobility, like if she was the daughter of a Count but married a Duke, but then, each holding would depend on where it came from. At least that's what is supposed to happen. In reality the son of a Duke and Countess might have enough political and military clout to claim and hold more than he is supposed to.

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

2) Assuming Countess Ellen will name as guardian his uncle (the player's knight until the son becomes knight himself), what exactly will be the widower's portion in this case?

Well in this case:

Manor #1 (his original manor): would pass to the eldest son, and someone would be appointed by Countess Ellen to serve as regent, or she might act as a guardian and run the land herself. A widows potion (1/3rd the manor) would be set aside to maintain the widow, and this would pass on to the son upon her death.

Manor #2 (From the wife): would go to the eldest son as well, assuming that the eldest son is also the eldest son of the wife/heiress, which is almost certainly the case. But if she did have a son from a previous marriage he would be in line for the second manor. Again, a widows potion (1/3rd the manor) would be set aside to maintain the widow.

Manor #3 (The Gift from the Countess): Would go back to the Countess as gifts only last for the life of the recipient. I  believe the wife would still get a widows portion as above to maintain her.

 

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

3) What portion of the land will inherit the eldest son when he becomes a knight?

THe eldest son should get 2/3rd of Manors #1 and #2 under normal circumstances, and get the reamining third  upon the death of his mother (or if she joins an abbey and becomes a nun). 

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

4) Will the son inherit his mother's widow's portion when she eventually dies? And what if she marries again?

Yes he will get it when she dies. If she marries again does't matter here as her lands belonged to her previous husband, not her current one.

 

The easy wayto look at this is that land is supposed to go to the eldest surviving legitimate (usually, but illegitimate sons did get land on occasion) son of the original landholding knight. Daughters only get land if there is no sons to grab it first, and then the daughters are supposed to split it equally. But and land that a daughter gets will pass on to her eldest surviving legitimate son as above. If there is no son or daughter, go back up the family tree a step and re-figure from there using the same rules. 

Wives only get land temporarily as a sort of pension to provide for them for doing their duty as wives.The idea being that a knight wouldn't want to have his wife become homeless if he died valiantly in battle. Then it continues on to whoever would have held if if the wife hadn't existed.

Key that in mind and it usually becomes easy.

 

Now all that said, the rules for  "Male Primogeniture" weren't ally formalized and locked down until the latter middle ages, and there were tons of exceptions.Things like who was moore popular or had the bigger army or the most money tended to play a factor.

 

 

 

[Atgxtg]

5 minutes ago, Morien said:

. Since the third one was a gift, that goes back to the liege, meaning that she gets 1/3rd of his original one and 1/3 of her own manor. But note that her guardian (the liege, since obviously the father is already dead, or husband if she remarries) would take control of her portion and take care of her.

So basically she would still get a third of that last manor to maintain her, right? Otherwise the widow of a knight with only a gifted manor would be in trouble if he died first. 

 

 

[Morien]

13 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So basically she would still get a third of that last manor to maintain her, right? Otherwise the widow of a knight with only a gifted manor would be in trouble if he died first. 

She would be in trouble, since the gift manor reverts back to the liege at the death of the original recipient. In such a case, there would have been an alternative dower that would have been agreed upon by the groom and the bride's guardian, such as her dowry set aside for her to live on/remarry with, if the husband dies first. The dower is a contract between the would-be-husband and his would-be-wife's family. He cannot promise her the land, since it returns to the liege. The liege has not promised to maintain the widow with land; he has just promised that land to the knight for the knight's life, that is all.

Also, I hasten to note that the guardian does not have to, and usually doesn't, maintain the widow with the full amount of the dower. So while in the example given in above, the widow ought to be getting around £4 to live with (after SD obligations), the guardian would probably pocket between £2-£3 and support the widow at Ordinary level. Same thing if your marry a widow as a vassal knight: since she is bringing in £2 extra as widow's portion but the wife & kids is already accounted for in your £6 upkeep, that £2 is Free Income*, baby! This is why (landed) widows are so desirable!

* Check with your own GM. Some would just add her Widow's Portion CR to yours and calculate the SD and other expenses accordingly. Which admittedly is something I might do as well, in order to keep it consistent with a case of a widow who has a full manor as her Widow's Portion. The point is, it would be basically still be a boost to the husband's holdings while she is alive. Also, arguments about the agreed upon dowers and giving them over to the widow or her guardian were rife, too, giving a good opportunity for a (would-be) husband to champion the widow's cause. (Reference: Eleanor of Leicester.)

Edited April 3, 2020 by Morien

[The Wanderer]

 

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

If she is a widow then she isn't an heiress

She is a heiress of her own father, and the widow of her husband! I didn't express it well, sorry!

...

With all this dower and widow's thing... then, when the PKs begin the campaign, when their father die and they inherit one manor... then the manor only gives them £6.5 right? as 1/3 (£3.5) goes to her mother as the dower!! 😰😱 I didn't realised 'til now!!

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

She is a heiress of her own father, and the widow of her husband! I didn't express it well, sorry!

No problem. Just to clarify she is only a widow of the recently deceased PK, right?

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

...

With all this dower and widow's thing... then, when the PKs begin the campaign, when their father die and they inherit one manor... then the manor only gives them £6.5 right? as 1/3 (£3.5) goes to her mother as the dower!! 😰😱 I didn't realised 'til now!!

Yup, though as Morien pointed out above she probably won't get the full £3.5. A lady typically only needs £2 in upkeep for her and her maid, and she would still be "on the hook" for some of the manorial expenses, so I suspect it works out closer to £2.5, leaving her £0.5 for discretionary funds.. All it all it probably works out about the same as before the husband died, only that there might be a bit of a crunch if/when the son marries. Or, at least it would if he didn't have two manors!

 

[Morien]

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

A lady typically only needs £2 in upkeep for her and her maid,

Actually £1 + £0.5, and that is assuming that she will have her own maid rather than sharing one at the court of the liege. It could be that the money (and the extra £0.5) goes to the upkeep of the underaged children, instead, who also become wards of the liege lord normally.

But yeah, the point I was making before is that since the 1-manor-knight's £3.5 Widow's Portion takes also care of about £1.5 worth of footsoldiers, this means that what the PK is losing to his mother is only the remaining £2, which can be filled in by £1 DF + £1 Chaplain being removed, leaving him with enough funds to support a wife and kids. In other words, the PK just loses the DF (the chaplain is more of an RP aspect, the GM can handwave that). Of course, if the GM wants to make it real simple, just calculate the new expenses based on 2/3 of the CR, with the other 1/3 and obligations going to the widow's guardian. So the 2-manor heir would have a CR of £13.3, meaning DF £1.3, and SD of £7.3, which comes nicely to about 1 knight (the new PK) and 6 footsoldiers, with £0.3 left over to top off the upkeep of the Widow's Portion knight. Simple and easy.

Or the GM can make it even simpler and assume that the mother dies shortly thereafter, or that the liege appoints the PK as the guardian for his own widowed mother, meaning that she simply takes the place of one of the courtiers. Problem solved. YPWV, after all. For instance, I don't really use the rules for the relief: the tax you are supposed to pay when you inherit your holding, equal to the annual income of the holding. I am having hard time figuring out where the average NPC knight gets that money, especially with the 2:1 transfer rate of render to treasure, and the need to find dowries for the younger daughters, etc. I mean, assuming he lives for 20+ years, you can just about make it, by saving all of your DF, but this is somewhat counter to the implied intent that DF is mostly spent as it comes. Many PKs generally manage it, though, being much more active in adventuring and in battles, gaining loot, but the same is not usually true to the NPCs. Especially as many of them would die young in battles, too. Anyway, since I didn't bring up the relief at the beginning of the campaign, I am not about to introduce it more than half-way in.

 

[The Wanderer]

So...am I understanding well... the beginning PKs don't have DF because of his mother being alive? In that case I did it totally wrong 😅

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

So...am I understanding well... the beginning PKs don't have DF because of his mother being alive? In that case I did it totally wrong 😅

He probably has some DF, say £ 0.5, as his mother would be accountable for one-third of the manorial expenses too. He might even have a little more if there are no other children to provide for freeing up another librum. 

But overall not much has really changed except the young PK takes his dad's place.Mom probably has a little more say in the running of the manor and still holds the purse strings as before, but chances are "sonny Boy" could get the full DF from his mom, assuming it for a good reason. Of course, MOm might not consider a new Hill Pony to be a good reason.

I suppose how much of an issue that all ends up being depending upon the personalities of the people involved and how money wealth there is. If Dad left his son £50 from previous wars then the son probably won't worry much about the DF, or if his mother spends it all on a new dress. If Dad left nothing, and the Saxons are demanding tribute, then no one will be happy.

[The Wanderer]

I think I will not bother the PKs with their moms right now, because if I didn't do it before there's no reason for doing it now... but I will apply it with the next generation of knights

[Atgxtg]

On 4/4/2020 at 11:10 AM, The Wanderer said:

I think I will not bother the PKs with their moms right now, because if I didn't do it before there's no reason for doing it now... but I will apply it with the next generation of knights

With the way land works you don't really need to. For the most part the manor generates enough income to cover the expenses and upkeep for everyone and give the knight (and his family) £1 in Discretionary Funds. With two manors the knight would get £2 in DF. That all you really need to know. You don't have to worry about how much Mom gets, how much the stable boy gets and so on. The detailed breakdown is nice to have, and somewhat useful for putting things into context (like how much better off the Steward is compared to the Lacky), but for the most part it can be ignored.  IMO, that was kinda the point behind the new economic model- it simplified things considerably.

Besides the PK would be more worried about paying off the inheritance tax.

[Morien]

14 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

With two manors the knight would get £2 in DF. That all you really need to know. You don't have to worry about how much Mom gets,

Only if the PK is the guardian of his widowed mother. Otherwise, that 33% Widow's Portion with its rights and responsibilities will go to Mom and through her, to whoever her guardian is (liege lord or new husband). Which leaves the PK with £13.3 -> DF £1.3. No biggie. And yes, if the GM wants, it is VERY easy to handwave away. Generally, it is less headache for me as the GM and more RP opportunities for the Players when they remain in charge of their female kin.

 

[Atgxtg]

Just now, Morien said:

Only if the PK is the guardian of his widowed mother. Otherwise, that 33% Widow's Portion with its rights and responsibilities will go to Mom and through her, to whoever her guardian is (liege lord or new husband). Which leaves the PK with £13.3 -> DF £1.3. No biggie. And yes, if the GM wants, it is VERY easy to handwave away. Generally, it is less headache for me as the GM and more RP opportunities for the Players when they remain in charge of their female kin.

Yes, technically it would to to the guardian of the widowed mother, but that would most likely be the knight, and my point was that we don't have to over complicate this. 

 

  

[The Wanderer]

The thing is that he cannot be the guardian because he is 16 and still a squire (of another PK), so the guardian will be his uncle (the brother of his father, and household knight of the manor).

Also, he is not the son of the widow, but the son of the first bride of his father.

What a mess!! 😱 Hahahaha!

 

[The Wanderer]

What I did, is that the widow made a deal with the uncle and countess for being maintained with 3£ for her and her children (who are the half brothers of the squire-PK). The rest of the land is stewarded by the uncle until the squire reaches the age and becomes a knight, when he will inherit everything but will have to keep maintaining her and her children until she dies or the children grow. 

[Morien]

4 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Also, he is not the son of the widow, but the son of the first bride of his father.

Say goodbye to the heiress' manor then, as far as that son is concerned.

ONLY the heiress' own children will inherit the manor. Did the dead PK have any children with her? If not, then the whole heiress' manor returns back to her (her guardian), and her guardian will marry her off to someone else (new husband takes control of the manor). Most likely this is some loyal, skilled household knight that the Countess wishes to reward.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Morien

[Morien]

2 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

until she dies or the children grow. 

OK, so the heiress does have children. Were these the PK's or did she have children from a previous marriage (I assume not)? It is her ELDEST (legitimate) son who inherits the manor, no matter which marriage.

Also, the Widow's Portion is for her lifetime. Why is she accepting this crummy deal for a boy who is not her own child, hurting her own children in the process?

[Atgxtg]

9 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

The thing is that he cannot be the guardian because he is 16 and still a squire (of another PK), so the guardian will be his uncle (the brother of his father, and household knight of the manor).

If the PK is still a squire then he doesn't have to deal with any of the manor or it's income. THat only happens when he is knighted. 

Now the liege lord would assign someone to run the manor until the PK is old enough, possibly even the widow. Or maybe even marry her off to some knight who can benefit from the extra income for a few years. 

9 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Also, he is not the son of the widow, but the son of the first bride of his father.

What a mess!! 😱 Hahahaha!

 

Yeah. In that case, depending upon how old the widow is, she might not have a guardian.

Generally speaking guardians were usually were heiresses, not widows. Typically the widow was independent, except that she would get married off to somebody.

But you can really make this as simple or as complicated as you want. 

The key thing is what character is the player running for the next few sessions?

[Morien]

40 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Generally speaking guardians were usually were heiresses, not widows. Typically the widow was independent, except that she would get married off to somebody.

My reading of KAP 5.2, p. 50, is that the widow needs to be widowed a second time before she gets to exercise control over her fief. Granted, it talks about widowed heiresses, but I don't see why that would be different for non-heiress widows. BotEnt errataed that to 3 times widowed. 

However, it would actually make for a better game* if the widows (heiress or non-heiress) become completely free of guardians as soon as they are widowed, as it makes the ladies more free to exercise their own will. This would increase the agency of any Player-Lady, too, not that I have been too strict about that so far anyway. Also, it allows the Player-Ladies make a play for the wardship of their children, allowing the campaign to continue more smoothly. I think I will actually introduce that 'royal proclamation' in the next Spring Court in our game, which is nicely at the start of the Romance Period anyway.

* Unless the Players of the PLs actually like navigating the burdensome patriarchy.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Morien

[Morien]

4 minutes ago, Morien said:

 

quoted rather than edited. I didn't see an easy way to delete a post, at least not yet.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Morien

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Morien said:

My reading of KAP 5.2, p. 50, is that the widow needs to be widowed a second time before she gets to exercise control over her fief. Granted, it talks about widowed heiresses, but I don't see why that would be different for non-heiress widows. BotEnt errataed that to 3 times widowed. 

I thought that was just here ability to refuse a marriage not guardianship.

3 hours ago, Morien said:

However, it would actually make for a better game* if the widows (heiress or non-heiress) become completely free of guardians as soon as they are widowed, as it makes the ladies more free to exercise their own will.

THat's what I was thinking. I beleive it is more closer to history, too. Pedragon's use of male primogeniture is also very simple but not quite how things worked in the medieval period. Male primogeniture came about at the tale end of the period in order to stop all the infighting and silliness that had dominated succession previously. It was practically a free for all.

3 hours ago, Morien said:

This would increase the agency of any Player-Lady, too, not that I have been too strict about that so far anyway. Also, it allows the Player-Ladies make a play for the wardship of their children, allowing the campaign to continue more smoothly. I think I will actually introduce that 'royal proclamation' in the next Spring Court in our game, which is nicely at the start of the Romance Period anyway.

* Unless the Players of the PLs actually like navigating the burdensome patriarchy.

Yup, plus with the pace of play, it's probably eaiser than introducing a NPK guardian for tree to eight game sessions before the heir takes over. I ususally just assume "mom" runs the manor until the heir matures.  

[The Wanderer]

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

The key thing is what character is the player running for the next few sessions?

Ok here it is, the family tree (just pay attention to the names, as the ages are not actualiced...)

William (PK; with two manors, one gifted, one granted) marries Bernadette and have two children, Eduard (now 16 y.o.) and Markus.

Bernadette dies and William luckily marries Elizabeth, whose dowry includes one manor. They have four children (their eldest male son is Egbert, now 5 y.o.).

Now William is dead, and the player after playing two years with Julius (William's uncle, and also a veteran knight of his household) wants to play with Eduard as squire of another PK.

Does the widower keeps the whole manor she "provided" (as dowry) to the marriage? Or does she keeps a regular widower portion of 1/3 of each manor? What happens with the rest of the landholding until Eduard comes to age? And when he eventually comes to age? And after Elizabeth dies?

Edited April 6, 2020 by The Wanderer

[Morien]

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Does the widower keeps the whole manor she "provided" (as dowry) to the marriage? Or does she keeps a regular widower portion of 1/3 of each manor? What happens with the rest of the landholding until Eduard comes to age? And when he eventually comes to age? And after Elizabeth dies?

The heiress' manor belongs to her bloodline. So it goes to HER eldest son, Egbert, who becomes a ward of someone, possibly even the same uncle. Elizabeth gets 1/3 of the landholdings held by the husband (with the exception of the gifted manor, see below), so 1/3 of her own manor and 1/3 of William's original manor. Yeah, it is a bit unfair towards Elizabeth, but she never exercised independent control over her inherited manor away (only as William's wife). But assuming we don't put her into guardianship, too, then it would explain why she would be keen on getting the guardianship of Egbert at least. In this scenario, she would control her own manor and 1/3 of William's original manor.

The gifted manor goes poof as soon as William dies. It returns to the liege lord (the Countess). End of story.

When Eduard becomes an adult, he is entitled to his father's manor. However, Elizabeth will get the 1/3 Widow's Portion until she dies. When she dies, that 1/3 returns back to the original manor, and its current holder (either the uncle if Eduard is still underaged, or Eduard if he has been knighted and taken control of his father's manor).

Same thing with Egbert when he grows up, with regards to his mother's (Elizabeth's) manor: 2/3 if Elizabeth is alive, whole manor if she is dead.

[Luca Cherstich]

On 4/4/2020 at 9:39 AM, Morien said:

For instance, I don't really use the rules for the relief: the tax you are supposed to pay when you inherit your holding, equal to the annual income of the holding. I am having hard time figuring out where the average NPC knight gets that money, especially with the 2:1 transfer rate of render to treasure, and the need to find dowries for the younger daughters, etc. I mean, assuming he lives for 20+ years, you can just about make it, by saving all of your DF, but this is somewhat counter to the implied intent that DF is mostly spent as it comes. Many PKs generally manage it, though, being much more active in adventuring and in battles, gaining loot, but the same is not usually true to the NPCs. Especially as many of them would die young in battles, too. Anyway, since I didn't bring up the relief at the beginning of the campaign, I am not about to introduce it more than half-way in.

Since you have been speaking of relief ...

If I well understood Book of Warlord p. 29, if you want to inherit you must pay TWO different taxes, one added to the other:

- "Primer Seisin" = one year of Income 

- "Relief" = £10 for common manors or, for estate holders, £5 per supported knight in the Servititium Debitum.

 

It sounds like a LOT of money! What happens if one does not pay?

I mean: I know that you do not use it but, if I do want to use it, what happens?

Will the Sheriff just take your holdings until you manage to get the money for the King?

And, furthermore, are these taxes also for ALL vassals (whether you are a vassal of Count Roderick or a direct Vassal of the King), right?