Broken Weapons

[Wolfpack Six]

Hello all,

Quick question (I think)...  What does a broken weapon count as, RAW?  Is there a rule?  Or is it the GM's call?

Thanks,

WP6

[Atgxtg]

I think by RAW a broken weapon counts as nothing, it's broken! So by RAW most weapons that get broken are useless in combat, at least until they can be repaired. 

That said I could see a GM interpreting some broken weapons to be inferior forms on the same or smaller weapons. For instance a broken greatspear might count as an inferior spear with a reduction to skill and/or damage. A broken sword might count as a sword or dagger. A broken anything might count as an inferior club, etc. 

I think that if a GM does that though, he will need to make sure that the broken weapon is inferior in some way to a real version of the weapon. 

 

BTW, did this come up in play or is you interest only academic?

[Wolfpack Six]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I think by RAW a broken weapon counts as nothing, it's broken! So by RAW most weapons that get broken are useless in combat, at least until they can be repaired. 

That said I could see a GM interpreting some broken weapons to be inferior forms on the same or smaller weapons. For instance a broken greatspear might count as an inferior spear with a reduction to skill and/or damage. A broken sword might count as a sword or dagger. A broken anything might count as an inferior club, etc. 

I think that if a GM does that though, he will need to make sure that the broken weapon is inferior in some way to a real version of the weapon. 

 

BTW, did this come up in play or is you interest only academic?

Thanks.  Right now, it's more of an academic interest for a personal project that I've rejuvenated recently, and the question of what broken weapons are in game terms came up.

One of my notes had broken weapons counting as "casual weapons", as in the brawling rules (in that case, a broken weapon would be the equivalent of a dagger); but I don't remember if that's something I just made up or if it was something I saw somewhere else.  So I wanted to see if there was an official ruling on broken weapons.

I can't imagine, say, a sword that's blade is broken in half being completely useless in combat: you've still got half a sword to use... which is basically a dagger.

[Voord 99]

I can see a possible reason to err on the side of “not that much better than no weapon at all. “ “Breaks non-swords on a tie” is the main mechanical thing that pushes towards swords as the default hand-to-hand combat weapon.  Weaken that, and other weapons look more attractive.

I’m looking at maces in the early period when other knights are wearing chain, and thinking, “Well, when I get a tie vs a sword, I’ll have a problem.  But I’ll still be able to fight, and think of all the many other times when I’ll get +1d6 damage.”  In particular, if a Cymric knight can use their spear with Spear Expertise after it’s broken, saying “Now it’s a shorter spear” - even if you did the equivalent of treating it as a dagger (-1d6 damage), I think you might see a fair number of Cymric knights deciding that it was an acceptable price to pay for being able to raise two skills for the price of one and just getting Spear Expertise as high as possible.

That might or might not matter, depending on one’s preferences.    To me personally it would, because swords are the default melee weapon in the literature.  (Spear Expertise bothers me even as it is.)  So I’d say that one might want to rule, whether or not this is realistic, that a broken weapon is no longer properly balanced for being a weapon (or defective in other respects - my non-expert sense would be that a broken sword would not be much good to a skilled dagger fighter, because you can’t stab with it effectively).   So it’d be a completely new weapon skill - if a knight wants to be “The Knight Who Can Fight with a Broken Axe,” then they need to train that up as a personal speciality. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Voord 99

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Wolfpack Six said:

Thanks.  Right now, it's more of an academic interest for a personal project that I've rejuvenated recently, and the question of what broken weapons are in game terms came up.

One of my notes had broken weapons counting as "casual weapons", as in the brawling rules (in that case, a broken weapon would be the equivalent of a dagger); but I don't remember if that's something I just made up or if it was something I saw somewhere else.  So I wanted to see if there was an official ruling on broken weapons.

Except that brawling doesn't use a weapon skill.

3 hours ago, Wolfpack Six said:

I can't imagine, say, a sword that's blade is broken in half being completely useless in combat: you've still got half a sword to use... which is basically a dagger.

That would depend on how and where it breaks. Even a minor break might ruin a blade for combat. Anyone who ever used a cracked aluminium bat should understand that. Maybe you got a poor quality dagger, maybe the weapon broke at the hilt and now you have no safe way to hold it, maybe it works but hurts whenever the blade hits something, maybe it shattered into a hundred pieces. It's something of a case by case thing. Maybe the Gm could use a 1d20 roll to see how good/bad the weapon is or how much remains?

With most polearms the character is probably left with some sort of spear, or at least a pole or club. Most other hafted weapons would leave the character with a broken stick. Again it comes down to the weapon, the location of the break and severity. Many long speaks had points on either end, and so could leave a character with a longspear or two short ones. But there is no guarantee the weapon would break cleanly. 

In play most PKs would call for their squire for another weapon, probably a sword (which normally can't break).

. 

[Wolfpack Six]

1 hour ago, Voord 99 said:

I can see a possible reason to err on the side of “not that much better than no weapon at all. “ “Breaks non-swords on a tie” is the main mechanical thing that pushes towards swords as the default hand-to-hand combat weapon.  Weaken that, and other weapons look more attractive.

Yeah, the whole thing with swords not breaking is really their "superpower", so to speak.

Semi-related question: Do Great Swords break (normal) Swords on a tie?

 

1 hour ago, Voord 99 said:

I’m looking at maces in the early period when other knights are wearing chain, and thinking, “Well, when I get a tie vs a sword, I’ll have a problem.  But I’ll still be able to fight, and think of all the many other times when I’ll get +1d6 damage.”  In particular, if a Cymric knight can use their spear with Spear Expertise after it’s broken, saying “Now it’s a shorter spear” - even if you did the equivalent of treating it as a dagger (-1d6 damage), I think you might see a fair number of Cymric knights deciding that it was an acceptable price to pay for being able to raise two skills for the price of one and just getting Spear Expertise as high as possible.

Well, if you're using a mace versus a sword, and the sword breaks the mace, you're left at best with a "headless mace" which, to me, would be a club (less effective mace).  At that point, would it be better to keep fighting with it, to fight unarmed, or to go for another weapon?  Maybe throw it like a rock while you're going for another weapon?  I suppose it would be situationally dependent.

Interesting point about Spear Expertise.  Even if a broken spear were to be treated as a dagger, the dagger is still less effective than a sword in terms of damage.

 

1 hour ago, Voord 99 said:

That might or might not matter, depending on one’s preferences.    To me personally it would, because swords are the default melee weapon in the literature.  (Spear Expertise bothers me even as it is.)  So I’d say that one might want to rule, whether or not this is realistic, that a broken weapon is no longer properly balanced for being a weapon (or defective in other respects - my non-expert sense would be that a broken sword would not be much good to a skilled dagger fighter, because you can’t stab with it effectively).   So it’d be a completely new weapon skill - if a knight wants to be “The Knight Who Can Fight with a Broken Axe,” then they need to train that up as a personal speciality. 

I don't disagree with your reasoning; just not sure I'd adopt the same approach.  Anyhow, I thank you for your thoughts on the matter.

[Wolfpack Six]

39 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Except that brawling doesn't use a weapon skill.

Right.  I wasn't saying that you'd resolve the combat as a brawl for the PK using a broken weapon.  He'd use whatever skill would be used based on what the weapon would be ruled as the equivalent of.  (Awkward sentence, I know...)

39 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

That would depend on how and where it breaks. Even a minor break might ruin a blade for combat. Anyone who ever used a cracked aluminium bat should understand that. Maybe you got a poor quality dagger, maybe the weapon broke at the hilt and now you have no safe way to hold it, maybe it works but hurts whenever the blade hits something, maybe it shattered into a hundred pieces. It's something of a case by case thing. Maybe the Gm could use a 1d20 roll to see how good/bad the weapon is or how much remains?

Maybe.  Just spit-balling here.

39 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

With most polearms the character is probably left with some sort of spear, or at least a pole or club. Most other hafted weapons would leave the character with a broken stick. Again it comes down to the weapon, the location of the break and severity. Many long speaks had points on either end, and so could leave a character with a longspear or two short ones. But there is no guarantee the weapon would break cleanly. 

Sure.  At the end of the day, a separate rule might not be worth the effort.  Still, I like to "What if?" things...

[Morien]

59 minutes ago, Wolfpack Six said:

Semi-related question: Do Great Swords break (normal) Swords on a tie?

Depends. In 4e, both great swords and swords are swords and thus unbreakable. However, in KAP 5.2, Great Swords break all other weapons save other great swords. Since this robs normal swords their unbreakable status, I dislike it and stick with 4e. Besides, I am not sure that it is not simply an editing error, given that it is the only place where swords are breakable. (I could swear I remember a discussion with Greg where the Great sword entry was supposed to read 'except other Swords and Great Swords', but I couldn't find it on the Nocturnal Forum archive on a quick search.)

EDIT: I found it in the errata thread: https://greathall.chaosium.com/Pendragon Forum Archive/index.php/t-1743.html " The italicised text should be '...unless it is a sword or a great sword as well.' " Alas, the link to the original thread is no longer valid, so it will take me a bit more time to track it down.

EDIT2: Found it: https://greathall.chaosium.com/Pendragon Forum Archive/index.php/t-1474.html

So spake Greg:

"FIRST: I would, and in fact thought I had, corrected the rule that Greatswords break swords
It ought to say that a sword, whether one- or two-handed
does NOT break on a tie"

Edited August 29, 2020 by Morien

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Wolfpack Six said:

Right.  I wasn't saying that you'd resolve the combat as a brawl for the PK using a broken weapon.  He'd use whatever skill would be used based on what the weapon would be ruled as the equivalent of.  (Awkward sentence, I know...)

Yeah, but the intent would be clear if not for you use of brawling. It would be closer to an improvised weapon.

2 hours ago, Wolfpack Six said:

Maybe.  Just spit-balling here.

Yup. I could see a little table that you'd roll a d20 on to see how much of the weapon is left that would determine the weapon type, and modifiers. Maybe something simple like half weapon = half skill or some such. 

2 hours ago, Wolfpack Six said:

Sure.  At the end of the day, a separate rule might not be worth the effort.  Still, I like to "What if?" things...

Yeah, it's not something that would come up all that often in the game. It would generally mean a knight wielding a breakable weapon without a squire or backup weapon, or the ability to get another weapon. 

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Morien said:

"FIRST: I would, and in fact thought I had, corrected the rule that Greatswords break swords
It ought to say that a sword, whether one- or two-handed
does NOT break on a tie"

That makes sense and is what I assumed was meant. If anything a greatsword would be more likely to break than a sword, not less. The same leverage that makes a greatsword hit harder also works against it as far as breaking goes. It's the same reason why ancient bronze swords tended to be shortswords. Everything else being equal (and everything else never is equal), the longer the blade the more likely it is to bend or break.

[Voord 99]

35 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, it's not something that would come up all that often in the game. It would generally mean a knight wielding a breakable weapon without a squire or backup weapon, or the ability to get another weapon. 

The time when it would come up most would probably be in battle, at least if using the BoB.  Squires can be lost fairly easily if they’re inexperienced, and mechanically it doesn’t matter for your Glory or Unit Results what you’re fighting with, as long as it doesn’t affect your chances of winning an opposed roll.

Outside battle, I think use of the Combined Actions rule would probably make it come up a little more often.  That is, until chivalry becomes a serious factor in how knights behave.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Voord 99

[Morien]

As for broken weapons, I go "broken = unusable". Time to switch weapons, and all knights carry at least a dagger with them as a last chance. Granted, I allow Defensive rearming to be done using the highest 1H weapon skill. Since you are focusing on your shieldwork, it makes sense to me that it is your best shield use, regardless which weapon you are trying to draw. YPMV.

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Voord 99 said:

The time when it would come up most would probably be in battle, at least if using the BoB.  Squires can be lost fairly easily if they’re inexperienced,

True, but I'd espect most knights to have a sword with them and swords generally don't break.

6 hours ago, Voord 99 said:

and mechanically it doesn’t matter for your Glory or Unit Results what you’re fighting with, as long as it doesn’t affect your chances of winning an opposed roll.

Which a broken weapon would. By RAW it's pretty much as Morien runs it. Broken = "unusable".

6 hours ago, Voord 99 said:

Outside battle, I think use of the Combined Actions rule would probably make it come up a little more often.  That is, until chivalry becomes a serious factor in how knights behave.

No so much. A knight could always drop a broken weapon and draw his sword. In fact the weapon breakage rules make the sword very appealing compared to other weapons.  MOst players would probably rather fight defensively and rearm than fight with a broken weapon at some penalty and get hit.

[Voord 99]

On 8/30/2020 at 12:36 AM, Atgxtg said:

Which a broken weapon would. By RAW it's pretty much as Morien runs it. Broken = "unusable".

Oh indeed - I mean if you changed the rules in the way that the OP is suggesting, and you could continue to use a broken weapon.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Voord 99

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Voord 99 said:

Oh indeed - I mean if you changed the rules in the way that the OP is suggesting, and you could continue to use a broken weapon.

Then just how useful that might be would depend on how much of a penalty was placed upon the broken weapon. If a broken greatspear counted as a spear with a -2 modifier or even -2/+2 it might still be useful when pressed, but not preferable to an unbroken weapon. Perhaps a damage die reduction might be better than a skill penalty?

[Morien]

6 hours ago, Voord 99 said:

Oh indeed - I mean if you changed the rules in the way that the OP is suggesting, and you could continue to use a broken weapon.

I don't think that is a good idea. If an hafted weapon breaks, what you are left holding is a short, light stick. Now, I could see a great spear or a halberd breaking giving you a quarterstaff that could still be useful, or a Great Axe/Mace/Hammer giving you a poor club, but if all a club and a quarterstaff are their own weapon skills, then you should use the new weapon skill, surely. That being said, I am a proponent of Weapon defaults being significantly higher than 0, so I could see half a skill using that new weapon (club -1d6 damage, quarterstaff (2H) the basic damage). Probably still better than going for your fists, but you probably would want to go for your sword in the majority of the cases. Which pretty much was the whole reason for having a sword in the first place, as your backup when your primary weapon (usually a spear or a polearm) broke/rendered otherwise unusable like the enemy getting past the pike or you dropping the weapon.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Morien

[Call Me Deacon Blues]

So, I generally agree that if a weapon is broken, it's unusable, full stop. I think I did have a player use a broken lance once for some reason though at least once, but I don't remember context or what I ruled. Off top my head, I'd say at best, any broken weapon should be -1d6 damage and a -5 to your skill. Maybe even make that reflexive. I already house rule that similar skills can also sub in for weapons at a penalty, like you can use the Axe skill to wield a great axe with a -5 penalty, -10 of the skills are more tenously linked like axe and mace or greatspear and halberd, -15 if there's hardly a connection at all, like dagger and greatspear (at least they both stab) or sword and axe. And -20 of there's basically nothing in common for how they're used, like axe and spear. It's hardly ever come up, and the decisions are more art than science. I would probably rule that a great weapon broken might count as the smaller version without taking the additional penalty, depending on how it broke. Maybe.