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Venharl the Climber and the Karandoli


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Since the official version is that Argrath's father was Maniski, does that mean the genealogy tracing him through Venharl the Climber in King of Sartar is wrong/referring to someone else, or is it just a case of someone switching out a name on accident and everything but the name of Argrath's father is the same? Or is it now going to be the genealogy of some other important NPC? It just seemed pretty detailed to be something that's just totally non-canon now.

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5 hours ago, Leingod said:

Since the official version is that Argrath's father was Maniski

Remember that this is noted in KoS too p.13: "Argrath was the son of Maniski Two‑sight5 a weaponthane (6) of the Karandoli (7) Clan of the Colymar Tribe.(8) Maniski was killed when Argrath was three. Argrath’s mother was called the Triceratops Queen (9)"

And p.129 (and repeated p.148, and noted in the genealogy p.149): Argrath revealed his ancestry. “My father was Maniski, as honorable and brave a warrior as has ever walked among the Sartari. My mother was Yanioth Two‑sight, the huntress who ran down the red deer in the Dog‑rat valley. Everyone knows her mother, for she was the daughter of Arene Thunderqueen, who commanded the triceratops to destroy Janastan. Arene Thunderqueen’s mother was famous, for she was Minara, the good one of the three sisters who staunched the wounds of Kostajor Wolf-Champion. Everyone knows the three sisters were daughters of Onelisin Cat‑Witch. “Princess Onelisin was the daughter of Prince Saronil Sartarsson, the First Prince of the land. Onelisin was the sister of kings: Jarolar was her elder brother, and he was famous for fighting the Lunars. And King Tarkalor was her younger brother, who is the most famous king of Sartar.”

And p.154 notes: "Argrath Liberator, son of Maniski, son of Orlgard, of the Karandoli Clan"

However, as another odd fragment there is p.200 written by a scribe of Pennel Source and recorded as "My brother’s letter, from Pavis": "I am Arnbord, Son of Venharl, of the Karandoli Clan and the Colymar Tribe. I am a poet, and I am a man of the chief of this camp.

Assuming the last is a contemporary document from Pavis, then who is the "chief of this camp" other than Argrath.  So, maybe the jealous poet Arnbord presented the tale to Leika but wrote his own genealogy into it?

5 hours ago, Leingod said:

or is it just a case of someone switching out a name on accident and everything but the name of Argrath's father is the same?

I would say the latter. 

However, this lineage was part of the origin of the "Many Argraths" approach of the HW/HQ period. 

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Arnbord shouldn't be able to claim the Karandoli clan membership either... King Ortossi disappeared during a hunt held by King Sartar in Telmori (or Sazdorf) lands, and his clan disappeared shortly after. New Pavis was founded only about 50 years later (or 75 years if you use the misleading date in the Pavis Box). Old Pavis opened up only 40 years after the disappearance of the Karandoli...

The chief of the camp could have been anybody. The Lunar occupation of Pavis lasted only 14 years and a season or two.

There is a possibility that Argrath revived the Karandoli clan, but then there is little evidence that he ever set foot in Pavis (new or old) after lighting the Flame of Sartar. The Colymar King List provides another clan name for a later king that nobody has heard of before...


From what we know about Argrath's youth from the Prince of Sartar comic, he would have been initiated to the Orlmarth clan, as he herded sheep on the Starfire Ridges, and have been exiled within the same year. He lived on the stead of his uncle and aunt, who apparently were slain in that raid on the stead.

Four female generations may have migrated quite a bit across the map. Onelisin belonged to the royal "clan", and her children may have been born to that, too. Minara was a cat witch as well, which indicates a potential lack of long term marriages, and possibly a short term marriage or two leaving a child to a local clan. Arene's thunder-beast feat may have happened just about anywhere.


The Karandoli clan was destroyed at least twice, and reliably immediately after fielding a king of the Colymar. Since the second Karandoli king of the Colymar has a Black Spear heritage through Maniski Firebreath, it looks like the remaining Karandoli after their destruction in the Zarran War received original Colymar nobility and were reformed, unusually under the same name (unlike the Taraling clan and the Antorling clan, both of a triaty overcome by the Colymar and destroying one clan each of those triaties). Both the Taralings and the Antorlings received nobility from a Black Spear clan lineage.


Argrath, of the lineage of Maniski Firebreath, gives him a Black Spear clan pedigree. That is quite different from "Son of Maniski, son of Orlgard", especially since Maniski Firebreath's father was "Kagradus, the son of Dorasor Durulz‑lover, son of Robasart, son of Anamorl who stood beside Colymar the Founder in battle." (p.175)

"Maniski Two-Sight" is somehow a condensation of a patronym (Maniski) and his mother Yanioth's nom-de-guerre. That source also names his grandmother Arene as Argrath's mother.

Or possibly Arene and Yanioth are sisters, and one is the foster parent, along with her husband, the ones slain by the Lunar raid. Minara was slightly older than Kostajor, who is still alive and whose sons still lead the Telmori - one those in Boldhome, the other the tribe in the hills. Kostajor's grandson is less than a dozen years younger than Argrath, but then he is from a later (tribal) marriage of Helkos (after losing his first wife, Terasarin's older daughter, a few years before the Fall of Boldhome in the Holy Country). Having two couples of parents of Argrath, siblings with their respective marriage partners, makes some limited sense. Having Karandoli clansfolk on a stead near the Starfire Ridges does less so.


The Karandoli have a clearly separate migration history from the Black Spear clan, and arrived in their lands in the Brambleberry Hills after the Malani migration (i.e. with the Lysang, Namolding and the Antorling predecessor already in place). The fifth Colymar king welcomed the Hiordings as the first non-Black Spear clan into the tribe, the sixth Colymar king was of the Karandoli clan (which must have joined shortly after the Hiordings, and possibly the Jenstali who would have lived southeast of Apple Lane). The Varmandi tragedy must have been ongoing in those years, too, first losing their hold on the Greenstone Temple which they had re-awakened, then losing land to the Tree Triaty clans in Arfritha Vale.

The "Kardarv and Jenestni" clans in Malani tribal tales likely are the Karandoli and Jenstali.

The Brambleberry Hills are no longer under cultivation, and neither are the valleys to either side.

Where is Eagles Mountain? Argrath boasts of the impossible pasture used by his great-great-grandfather Gordangar the Red on its flanks. Was this prior to the destruction of the Karandoli by the Jenstali intrigue/the hideaway of Venharl Ortossison, or during that time?


One detail that has me a bit stumped is the factoid that Venharl the Climber was an associate of the Temple of the Wooden Sword's Eril Silksword, and the other two apparently companions of Leika during that time who received Venharl's clandestine help. According to other sources, Argrath's biological father fell at the siege of Boldhome, and his biological mother four years later. Londra's adventures started only around 1610 or so, two years before Argrath's inititiation. I suppose that the members of the Wooden Sword had been too young even for the Household of Death, and that Londra's Wooden Sword temple may have been an attempt to achieve similar fame. There is a chance that Argrath's father was a guard for the Household of Death.

Could Venharl have been the adoptive father of Argrath, who was killed in the Lunar raid?

Yanioth clearly used to live in the former Karandoli lands, as she hunted deer in Dog-Rat Valley. We don't know whether she did that prior to her marriage with Maniski or afterwards. We do know that Argrath was taken in by his uncle and aunt after her death in 1606.

Telling how it is excessive verbis


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  • 1 year later...

Something I only just realized with regards to this. Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes has, in its detailed write-up of the Orlmarth clan, a certain Orlgard Kenstrelsson serving as the lawspeaker. Said write-up is as follows:


Lawspeaker: Orlgard Korlmarsson (Wgy) is an elderly thane from a rival bloodline of the chief ’s. He is wise and discerning, and knows every legal procedure and tactic. He was never a warrior and knows little about fighting (but much about dying as his father, brother and two sons all died fighting the Empire), but his advice to farmers is relied on by the more prudent carls of the clan.

In the non-Venharl genealogy, Maniski's father is given as Orlgard, and this Orlgard had two sons who were killed by the Lunars, which would be a good match for the father and uncle that Argrath lost to the Lunars. Might this be Argrath's paternal grandfather? Granted, it conflicts with the Karandoli origin thing, but frankly I've given up on understanding any of that.

On an unrelated note, I'd guess this Orlgard is the son of Korlmar Kentventsson, King of the Colymar from 1552-1558. For his bloodline to be called out as a rival that of the sitting Orlmarth chieftain (which has produced two notable and well-regarded kings in living memory), such a pedigree would be no stretch.

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