Hate (Saxons)

[piersb]

So my players did chargen last night for the GPC, and unless I'm missing something (which I don't think I am) it's possible to get through the family history version of character generation with Hate (Saxons) at 0 if your ancestors manage to avoid all the major Saxon battles. (Mostly by dying young.)

I offered anyone who didn't have it at 2d6+6 for general anti-Saxon purposes (on reflection should've been 3d6) but no-one took it. So about half my PKs now are all "Well, yeah, I suppose the Saxons did murder a lot of people - but they never did any harm to me or mine."

Gonna let it ride. Should be interesting.

Edited September 8, 2021 by piersb

[piersb]

Oh, and one of them made it all the way to the battle of Mount Damen!

[Morien]

1 hour ago, piersb said:

So my players did chargen last night for the GPC, and unless I'm missing something (which I don't think I am) it's possible to get through the family history version of character generation with Hate (Saxons) at 0 if your ancestors manage to avoid all the major Saxon battles. (Mostly by dying young.)

If they are from Britain (and hence influenced by the Night of the Long Knives, 463), they would get Hate (Non-Berroc Saxons) at 3d6.

But sure, if they are Aquitainians or from Estregales or Brittany, no worries.

[piersb]

May well be intended, but not RAW.

5.2 says the 3d6 from ordinary chargen should be ignored if you're using Family History and any Hate (Saxons) Passion taken from there instead; and your grandfather doesn't get to roll on the Night of the Long Knives table if he's already dead.

As it turns out I actually quite like the idea that not all PKs get a Hate (Saxons) unless they want one. I think it'll play well with my group that some have it and some don't.

(Also, if they change their minds later, it's not like they'll be short of opportunities to pick it up.)

[Morien]

1 hour ago, piersb said:

and your grandfather doesn't get to roll on the Night of the Long Knives table if he's already dead.

Your GRANDfather never gets to roll on that Passion, since he is already dead. It is his death during NotLK that gives a bonus for the FATHER to roll on that Passion, but the father rolls REGARDLESS. It explicitly says: "FATHERS" (or in the case of South Counties "EVERYONE").

Trust me, I know how it is supposed to go. I was the contributing editor for the book and helped Bob to write it and plot through these various 'if...then' plot lines.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Morien

[piersb]

The singular event for 463 specifically mentions your Grandfather dying, and mentions your Father not at all. And then says in the very same event "Your father rolls on every further event," which I took to mean "Not including this one."

I am absolutely happy for you to tell me that's not RAI and the Father was supposed to get 3d6; I suspected as much. But it is RAW. And I've chosen to go that way.

My Pendragon Is Varying.

[piersb]

(I've also decided to go for an all-or-nothing Chivalry Bonus at 96.)

[Morien]

5 hours ago, piersb said:

The singular event for 463 specifically mentions your Grandfather dying, and mentions your Father not at all. And then says in the very same event "Your father rolls on every further event," which I took to mean "Not including this one."

I am absolutely happy for you to tell me that's not RAI and the Father was supposed to get 3d6; I suspected as much. But it is RAW. And I've chosen to go that way.

Oh, mea culpa. You are talking about KAP 5.2 Salisbury Family History. I am talking about Book of Sires. Sorry for the confusion.

5 hours ago, piersb said:

My Pendragon Is Varying.

Which is totally fine.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Morien

[piersb]

32 minutes ago, Morien said:

Oh, mea culpa. You are talking about KAP 5.2 Salisbury Family History. I am talking about Book of Sires. Sorry for the confusion.

Eh, no worries! Seemed likely we were talking about different editions-slash-options...

[Hzark10]

Yes, the original 5.2 rules did not include all the options Veli and I included in Sires.  Greg agreed with Sires and also contributed text to the book. But, keep us posted as to your campaign.  I think it will have some interesting twists, especially when Cerdic/Cynric  shows up.

[piersb]

Will do!

There's a Wiki/Campaign Journal at https://the-liminal-blade.obsidianportal.com which (right now) is just full of Me Setting Things Up, but should soon be filled with my players telling their stories about the stories...

Next week will be the first actual session, and we are all excite.

[creativehum]

First, @piersb, I want you to run your game exactly as you want, so I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Secondly, I'm looking at a PDF of KAP 5.2, and maybe the print text and the PDF text are different in some ways, or perhaps there are several revisions of the PDF. I don't know.

But I do know I'm looking at the year 463 on p. 63 of the KAP 5.2 PDF and it says:

Quote

 

Events Table: 463*

“Night of Long Knives” treachery: Grandfather murdered. Your family gains Hate (Saxons) Passion 3d6+6.

 

[emphasis added]

Now, again, maybe I have a text of this edition different than others, but in the text I have the Player Knights are definitely going to have a Hate (Saxons) -- and most likely be very passionate about it. Every member that the player rolls up for his PK in at least the Uther Phase is going to have this roll because the roll is imposed on the family... not grandfather or the father.

So, yes... the PKs all end up with a Hate (Saxons) if you use the Family History. At least in the text I'm looking at right now.

[Hzark10]

I had not looked at the books when I addressed this earlier. I have now. 

The original text has what you have from KAP 5.0, pg. 48; 5.1 also say the same on page 48;  And 5.2 also says the same.  So, I have to agree with Creativehum that it IS in the print. What Veli states also is correct. Those whose families lost a grandfather at the Night of Long Knives would get this Passion, while those from the continent, Estregales, Picts, would not.  But, you (Piersb) are also correct in YPMV.  

Remember, it is YOUR game.   

 

[Morien]

4 hours ago, creativehum said:

So, yes... the PKs all end up with a Hate (Saxons) if you use the Family History. At least in the text I'm looking at right now.

I read it the same way that piersb did, actually. Your Family gets the Hate (Saxons) 3d6+6 IF AND ONLY IF the Grandfather is killed at the Night of the Long Knives. If the Grandfather is long dead, he doesn't get this event, and you skip straight to the father's events.

Now Book of Sires changed this a bit, so that even if YOUR Grandfather wasn't murdered, you still got the Hate at 3d6, because of the shock and horror of the treachery of the Saxons, the slaughter of the Cymric Nobility (including the liege of the Father, if he is from almost anywhere south of the Wall and north of the Channel, except Estregales) and the subsequent raiding and occupation of the main cities and towns.

[Leingod]

42 minutes ago, Morien said:

(including the liege of the Father, if he is from almost anywhere south of the Wall and north of the Channel, except Estregales)

Unless of course your PK is from Glevum/Gloucestershire, since Eldol managed to fight his way out.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Leingod

[creativehum]

Yes, that makes sense.

For my game I would house rule it much as BoS does. The Hate Saxons 3d6 is something I consider Cultural, not personal. The 3d6+6 is the personal-family value.

Buy I see what he was saying now.

[piersb]

Just suddenly occurred to me that you could end up with Hate (Saxons) 24.

Ouch.

[Morien]

1 hour ago, piersb said:

Just suddenly occurred to me that you could end up with Hate (Saxons) 24.

Bah, they are just learning to use the Dark Side at that stage. If you are using the (utterly broken) critical Passion mechanic from KAP 5.2, that is just the beginning. Soon enough they will have Hate 30+...

A bit more seriously, though, I have some views on the inheritability of (especially high) Traits and Passions, too, and I tend to impose a starting passion limit of 19, regardless of the bonuses. Those are just house rules, though.

[piersb]

I've taken on your houserule that Passions no longer auto-increase with a crit after they hit 20 (because of the geometric ladder).

Immediate Experience Roll + Check Too seems perfectly cromulent.