The Red City

[Elcid321]

So, in an adventure i found in the Dragons of Britain fanzine, called the King of the Red City, where in the end of the adventure, one of the characters may become king of the city, and it got me thinking, how would that work as a holding, the amount of money it would make, the improvements and the possible events.

So, do any of you have any idea of how it could work?

[AlHazred]

There was another adventure, "The Adventure of the Circle of Gold," where a character could become a king of a kingdom. Once the character swears fealty to Arthur (as High King), he can continue adventuring if he desires. The scenario appears in Tournament of Dreams and Tales of Mystic Tournaments. It includes a bit of discussion on how being a king interacts with errantry.

 

EDIT: As I remember it, there was a land record sheet for the Kingdom of the Circle of Gold in that adventure. Is there one in The Dragons of Britain magazine for the Red City?

Edited February 15, 2022 by AlHazred

[Elcid321]

1 hour ago, AlHazred said:

There was another adventure, "The Adventure of the Circle of Gold," where a character could become a king of a kingdom. Once the character swears fealty to Arthur (as High King), he can continue adventuring if he desires. The scenario appears in Tournament of Dreams and Tales of Mystic Tournaments. It includes a bit of discussion on how being a king interacts with errantry.

 

EDIT: As I remember it, there was a land record sheet for the Kingdom of the Circle of Gold in that adventure. Is there one in The Dragons of Britain magazine for the Red City?

Nope, no mention for that stuff in the fanzine, but thanks for the info, i'll check that book.

[AlHazred]

Looking at the adventure, it looks like the Red City is meant to be a small kingdom, with 5 fiefdoms. That might not even be as profitable as a regular baronetcy.

[Morien]

2 hours ago, AlHazred said:

Looking at the adventure, it looks like the Red City is meant to be a small kingdom, with 5 fiefdoms. That might not even be as profitable as a regular baronetcy.

I took those five fiefs to simply be those that were enfeoffed and available as prizes to the other PKs. If we go by KAP 4 scaling of bannerets, you'd expect about 50/50 split, so the 'kingdom' might be a small one with a £50 demesne and £50 enfeoffed manors, for a total of £100. However, if we go with BotW scaling of 10-20% enfeoffed, this would give the size of the full kingdom somewhere between £250 and £500. So about a regular baronial honour of £300 or so.

Given that the usurpers' army is 25 knights and 100 foot soldiers, about £300 would be in line of that. However, it is said that they are not popular rulers, hinting that the true power of the kingdom would be more. I would not go above £500 in any case, and even that might be a bit difficult to explain, given the geography. Unless you wish to invoke the Enchantment of Britain and have most of the Red City actually exist in Faerie, which is likely the case for the Kingdom of the Circle of Gold, given its geographical size (several days journey across) and isolation (traveling needed to even get to the border).

In the end, it is up to the GM, how big he wants to make it. If this is a climax of a story of a Glorious PK, who is retiring afterwards, I don't mind going big. It might be a bit more of an issue if the PK will continue to be active in play, since he has such a huge power base and a title that he would loom over the other PKs. If this has been more of an enterprise of equals, I would rather go for breaking up the kingdom, with each PK getting a £100 estate or something out of it, joined together in common defense. This would keep everyone on the same footing, but definitely reward them for their efforts.

[Elcid321]

12 hours ago, Morien said:

I took those five fiefs to simply be those that were enfeoffed and available as prizes to the other PKs. If we go by KAP 4 scaling of bannerets, you'd expect about 50/50 split, so the 'kingdom' might be a small one with a £50 demesne and £50 enfeoffed manors, for a total of £100. However, if we go with BotW scaling of 10-20% enfeoffed, this would give the size of the full kingdom somewhere between £250 and £500. So about a regular baronial honour of £300 or so.

Given that the usurpers' army is 25 knights and 100 foot soldiers, about £300 would be in line of that. However, it is said that they are not popular rulers, hinting that the true power of the kingdom would be more. I would not go above £500 in any case, and even that might be a bit difficult to explain, given the geography. Unless you wish to invoke the Enchantment of Britain and have most of the Red City actually exist in Faerie, which is likely the case for the Kingdom of the Circle of Gold, given its geographical size (several days journey across) and isolation (traveling needed to even get to the border).

In the end, it is up to the GM, how big he wants to make it. If this is a climax of a story of a Glorious PK, who is retiring afterwards, I don't mind going big. It might be a bit more of an issue if the PK will continue to be active in play, since he has such a huge power base and a title that he would loom over the other PKs. If this has been more of an enterprise of equals, I would rather go for breaking up the kingdom, with each PK getting a £100 estate or something out of it, joined together in common defense. This would keep everyone on the same footing, but definitely reward them for their efforts.

I actually never took into account the number of soldiers, but considrring that 10£ is supposed to give you 1 knight and 2 foot soldiers (+1 for garrison), you might be right that becoming king of the red city might me close to a barony, and of course, it being a port city, it adds to the land wealth. Thanks for the info.

[Tizun Thane]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:17 AM, Morien said:

Given that the usurpers' army is 25 knights and 100 foot soldiers, about £300 would be in line of that. However, it is said that they are not popular rulers, hinting that the true power of the kingdom would be more. I would not go above £500 in any case, and even that might be a bit difficult to explain, given the geography.

Computer is cheating ^^ I think this army have only fake knights (mounted sergeants) and brigands with bad moral as infantry. Good at frightening peasants, bad for fighting.

• 25 sergeants x 2£ = 50 £
• 100 x 1/5 £ = 20 £

You only need 70 £/year, and the usurpers probably squeeze their estate to the last grain. 

I would go with a little barony, with 5 enfeodded manors of 10 £ each (the suroundings) and a main demesne of 80 £ (the Red City itself). So, it's a beautiful reward, but still manageable without breaking the game.

[Voord 99]

Practically speaking, the intent seems to be to supply a distinctive campaign concept, so I think Tizun Thane’s suggestion is about right for the numbers, but I would keep it a kingdom* (i.e., the character becomes a pennath in KAP terms).

I think it’s a great concept for a campaign, especially for a group who doesn’t need the “training wheels” aspect of the early GPC and is playing the game a second time.  You can stand off a bit from the detailed BotW-style medieval-England simulation stuff and have a game that shades a bit more towards fantastic romance.  Arthur will still be the player king’s overlord, probably, but the relationship’s a bit different from being one of his actual barons.

*Not sure that Tizun Thane meant to imply otherwise, and they may have just meant that it would be about the same size as a barony.

[Morien]

3 hours ago, Tizun Thane said:

I would go with a little barony, with 5 enfeodded manors of 10 £ each (the suroundings) and a main demesne of 80 £ (the Red City itself). So, it's a beautiful reward, but still manageable without breaking the game.

Sure, if you wanted to go with the 'minimum possible', and keep the PKs roughly on the Vassal Knight level, with the leader elevated on an estate holder level.

Mind you, this would solve the geographical issues, too, as you can easily explain a small domain like this away. 🙂