Clarifications

[Barak Shathur]

I don't think these issues qualify as typos or errors, but it might be a good idea to clarify the writing a bit regarding shields in the following instances (that have as far as I can tell been carried over from BGB):

 

P. 48 Parry

“At the gamemaster’s discretion, your character can parry with a 

weapon or shield from a related or similar category, with the roll 

being Difficult.”

 

(All shields use same skill as per page 132 “Shields”, so should never be penalised for belonging to a different category from other shields. If you mean one can parry with a shield using half the skill of a weapon one is more proficient with, this should be made clear)

 

P. 125 Parry

“Shield armor points and hit points (AP/HP) are used only when dealing with damage done 

directly to the shield itself, as in an attack to try and destroy a shield or parrying weapon (page 142); “

 

(Shouldn’t it read ‘shield or weapon armor points and hit points’?)

 

P. 130 Armour

“Where shields are also used, a successful shield parry may not be enough to stop a blow, and damage from the attack can 

potentially pass through the armor value of the shield and to its wielder.”

 

(Is there a difference between shields and other parrying weapons in this respect? If there isn't, the text is misleading. Shouldn't it read "shields or parrying weapons"?)

 

P. 132 Shields

“Shields do not generally lose hit points when 

struck by normal blows, and they are not very easy to knock free from a 

defender’s grasp. Usually, only powerful blows (special successes or better) 

will damage a shield, and the only way to lose one is through a fumble.”

 

(Again, is there a difference between shields and other parrying weapons in this respect?)

 

P. 132

“Your character can also use a shield to attack an opponent. The 

chance is the same as your character’s Shield skill rating, as shield training 

usually incorporates offensive use as well as defensive. Shields generally 

use the knockback as their special success, though some types of shields 

are spiked and can use the impaling special successes.”

 

(Does this function as for two weapons?)

[Mugen]

Maybe someone with a copy of the new BRP book could tell if the wording has been changed ?

Edited April 8, 2023 by Mugen

[Barak Shathur]

Everything except the part about attacking with a shield is identical in both versions. 

[Barak Shathur]

Since DreadDomain mentioned it in the errors thread, I'll add my bit here since it's not really an error per se. It would be helpful with more clarification regarding Close Combat, Closing and Weapon Length. Perhaps combat examples that exemplify how these are supposed to work in practice. 

Combat movement: it might be helpful if it was mentioned under "Move" on p. 125 that a human can sprint 50 m if not performing any other actions, including parry or dodge.

First Aid: can further attempts be made after a fumble? One might infer no, since failure has that effect, but it could be stated clearly if this is the case for fumbles too.

Damage and hit locations p. 133. Damage equal to or more than HP in Abdomen or Chest: does the character start bleeding 1 hp per round only after ten minutes (two turns) have passed?

Edited April 9, 2023 by Barak Shathur

[pansophy]

8 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Since DreadDomain mentioned it in the errors thread, I'll add my bit here since it's not really an error per se. It would be helpful with more clarification regarding Close Combat, Closing and Weapon Length. Perhaps combat examples that exemplify how these are supposed to work in practice. 

If you really want to go full-in on those rules, then here is my take on it.
Essential Read (in suggested reading order): Weapon Length (p.156), Close Combat (p.145), Closing (p.145)

(START) The longer weapon (1) attacks first - or (2) the longer weapon decides to keep the shorter weapon at bay and makes an Attack roll.
1) then the shorter weapon attacks, while the longer weapon user can defend DIFFICULT. Next: (3)

2) then the shorter weapon needs to Parry or Dodge. If successful, the shorter weapon closes in and can attack; go to (1). If unsuccessful, the shorter weapon is kept at bay and cannot do anything this round to close-in to the long weapon user. Go to The START.

3) Normal combat rules, the long weapon now acts at normal DEX rank (still being at a disadvantage: Parry is DIFFICULT, can only either Attack, Parry or Dodge).

8 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Combat movement: it might be helpful if it was mentioned under "Move" on p. 125 that a human can sprint 50 m if not performing any other actions, including parry or dodge.

Depends ... If you use the 5m per unit suggestion from page 21, then yes. But the same section also reads 'An average rate of movement in combat is 3 meters (yards) per unit'. So, Combat movement is only 30m.

Decide which you like and when to use which - and be consistent about it.

8 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

First Aid: can further attempts be made after a fumble? One might infer no, since failure has that effect, but it could be stated clearly if this is the case for fumbles too.

Nope. Each wound can only be tried to be healed once (p.41) - under system notes: 'Only one attempt may be made per wound.'

8 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Damage and hit locations p. 133. Damage equal to or more than HP in Abdomen or Chest: does the character start bleeding 1 hp per round only after ten minutes (two turns) have passed?

Looks like it. Bleeding out is serious, as you only have one attempt to heal each wound. Depending on how many wounds your character received, this might be a one or nothing chance ... let's hope there is a good healer around, otherwise it is time for some new character ... 

Well, not quite. Each round your character has the chance of stopping the bleeding by making a Stamina roll. But that's all he gets. He might be using those Power Points for re-rolls, though, if you have that optional rule in place.

[Barak Shathur]

3 hours ago, pansophy said:

1) then the shorter weapon attacks, while the longer weapon user can defend DIFFICULT. Next: (3)

Ah, but here is where confusion arises. Under 'Close Combat', it sounds like what you're saying here. But at the end of 'Closing' it says "As noted in Close Combat, a short weapon-user can close on a long weapon with a successful Dodge or parry." So here it doesn't mention being kept at bay, it sounds like the short weapon-user needs to dodge or parry in order to attack at all. Perhaps Chaosium can add "being kept at bay" if this is how it's supposed to work.

Also, it would be helpful if Chaosium could clarify throughout these three passages when they're talking about 'short' weapons (in contrast to 'medium' weapons) and when they mean 'shorter-than-long'' weapons, i.e. both medium and short weapons.

 

 

[Saki]

Piggybacking on the topic for rules that could use clarification - one thing I found confusing in BGB was for magic, it states spells need a resistance roll to work on a target, but some spells instead list that a target can try to dodge them.  Does a Blast spell for example require a cast check, then a resistance roll to affect the target, and then also allow the target to attempt to dodge it?

 

Another rule that is unclear is Slung Shields, which seem to make shields more effective when you aren't using or wielding them.

[DreadDomain]

17 hours ago, pansophy said:

If you really want to go full-in on those rules, then here is my take on it.
Essential Read (in suggested reading order): Weapon Length (p.156), Close Combat (p.145), Closing (p.145)

Agreed. Actually, Stormbringer and Magic World are much clearer if only because they cover the topic in 1 section intead of 3. The keeping at bay maneuver is not included though.

13 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Ah, but here is where confusion arises. Under 'Close Combat', it sounds like what you're saying here. But at the end of 'Closing' it says "As noted in Close Combat, a short weapon-user can close on a long weapon with a successful Dodge or parry." So here it doesn't mention being kept at bay, it sounds like the short weapon-user needs to dodge or parry in order to attack at all. Perhaps Chaosium can add "being kept at bay" if this is how it's supposed to work.

Also, it would be helpful if Chaosium could clarify throughout these three passages when they're talking about 'short' weapons (in contrast to 'medium' weapons) and when they mean 'shorter-than-long'' weapons, i.e. both medium and short weapons.

In the Weapon Lenght section,there is a sentence ommitted in UGE that is in BGB (and similarly in Stormbringer and Magic World). This omission might be intentional or not. Either way, it totally messes up how longer weapons and short weapons interact together.

Quote

Armed with a medium or short hand-to-hand weapon, the attacker can parry or Dodge. He cannot attack until Dodging successfully. The player (or game master) should state that the character is slipping inside the guard of the long weapon-user. 

To be fair, this is probably the intention of this bullet in UGE "Weapon Length". At first I read "can attempt to hold off" as a reference to "keep at bay" in the close combat section but it's probably just a generic expression. Note that under this rule, the short-weapon-user can use "parry or Dodge" to slip inside. Also, note the last sentence I have bolded. Once "inside the guard" the long weapon user is at a serious disadvantage (as you would expect)!

Quote

A long-weapon-user can attempt to hold off a short-weapon-user, who must make a successful parry or Dodge to bypass their guard. Once the short-weapon-user has slipped inside the guard of the long-weapon-user, attacks against the long-weapon-user are Easy and attacks against the short-weapon user are Difficult. Parries by the long-weapon-user are Difficult. 

The way I understood and played the game before (long weapon user = LW, short weapon user = SW). This was my interpretation of the Stormbringer/MW/BGB rule

LW and SW engage. They are at long weapon range:

1) LW strikes first irrespective of DEX Rank. The SW can parry or dodge normally. If the SW has successfully dodged (not parried) the attack, proceed to 2). Otherwise, proceed to 3)

2) The SW slips inside the LW's guard. They are now in close combat (which is a subset of being in melee combat). SW can now attack and LW can dodge normally or parry at difficult. 

3) The SW cannot attack this round but can attack to slip inside LW's guard by succeeding at a dodge roll. If he suceeds they are now in close combat and move to the next turn. Note that SW could also attempt to disengage by succeeding at a dodge roll.

For the following rounds, use normal DEX Ranks and proceed with close combat if SW has closed or with normal melee combat if he hasn't.

In BGB, keeping at bay is a defensive maneuver that works the same as 1) above except that no damage is inflicted and many opponent can be kept at bay. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by DreadDomain

[DreadDomain]

The more I read the UGE sections the more I believe 95% of the useful text is under "Weapon Length" and the "Close Combat" and "Closing" sections are mostly confusing things.

[Barak Shathur]

10 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

The more I read the UGE sections the more I believe 95% of the useful text is under "Weapon Length" and the "Close Combat" and "Closing" sections are mostly confusing things.

Agree. Still, it feels like the sections make slightly more sense in the new edition.

 

11 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

3) The SW cannot attack this round but can attack to slip inside LW's guard by succeeding at a dodge roll. If he suceeds they are now in close combat and move to the next turn. Note that SW could also attempt to disengage by succeeding at a dodge roll.

Don’t you mean the LW can attempt to disengage using dodge?

Another question that arises is whether it’s only short weapons, not medium weapons, that are subject to being kept at bay and can enter close combat with long weapons. It’s confusing, because ‘short weapon’ is a category, but can also simply mean ‘shorter than the long weapon’ . This is another reason why I think it would be nice if they dropped the weapon lengthened categories and just used SIZ. 

Another grammatical confusion is the wording around ‘closing’ and ‘close combat’. Sometimes closing seems to mean entering melee distance, sometimes it seems to mean entering close combat. Every time I read those paragraphs my head spins. 
 

If they could just put it all in one single section a lot would probably be cleared up. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Barak Shathur
Typo