The Vincent Vendetta

[Conrad]

This question is more about GMing than any set game system.

One of my friends recently told me about a problem he and his group had with a player, who we’ll call Vincent (which is not his real name), and asked me what I’d do in the same situation. Vincent was part of a game with an ancient Japanese setting, and chose to play a ninja (disguised as a concubine) in a group of samurai, shugenja and priests. The GM explained to him that if the other players found out that he was a ninja, then according to the rules of the setting, he’d get his character killed. Vincent then went and acted very blatantly, killing an npc and wearing his bloodied armour while waving a bloody katana about for all to see. The outcome of Vincent’s actions was a humiliating death for his character. Which he blamed on the rest of the players. But the GM had told him, in no uncertain terms what would happen should his character blow his cover. It seemed that Vincent wouldn’t accept that he’d been stupid, and wouldn’t learn from his mistake.

This also happened again, in a game with an ancient Chinese background. After being told that Daoists were considered evil in the setting, and if his character was ever found out it meant death, Vincent chose to play one.

Again Vincent played his character so blatantly that the outcome was a humiliating trial and execution.

My friend then told me that Vincent wanted to get back at the Chinese setting GM in my friend’s game.

I asked my friend what he planned to do about this vendetta blurring into his game. My friend said he’d thrown Vincent out of his game without even telling to him why. I thought that was a little harsh, but when my friend said “What would you do with Vincent?” I was at a loss. My rules of “Give the players what they want, but make them work hard for it” didn’t seem to cover this dilemma. On reflection , and a couple of pints, I said that I’d try to talk the player out of the vendetta before throwing them out of the game.

What would you have done with Vincent? Would you have allowed him to take his vendetta into your game?

Edited April 10, 2011 by Conrad

[GianniVacca]

What would you have done with Vincent? Would you have allowed him to take his vendetta into your game?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Do you mean "Knowing that Vincent would take advantage of being able to play again in that very same campaign to exact revenge on the other members of the party, would you allow him back?". Er, the answer would be "no" then. If, however, Vincent insisted, I'd let him play a weaponless character. That would maybe calm him down.

Edited April 8, 2011 by GianniVacca
typo

[MrJealousy]

Wow, in 30 + years of roleplaying I don't think I've ever come across anyone that has taken a vendetta outside of a game. Seems to me that Vincent is deliberately trying to cause trouble, or he is just acting very immature.

Approximately how old is he?

We've had people play evil guys in a group of good guys, and on occasion they have been found out with the inevitable consequences. But I think my group is quite mature in outlook, so there wouldn't be any obvious evilness on the part of their character, and if they were caught I believe it would be more of a 'fair cop guv' rather than 'I will get you with my next character'.

There has to be a certain amount of flexibility, or compromise in players characters or you'd never get a decent mix of alignments and characters. So evil characters do turn up in our good parties from time to time, but the player knows the risks. I've done it, its fun literally getting away with murder.

Would I have allowed Vincent to take his vendetta into my game? No. I probably wouldn't invite him into any of my games.

But then I frequently run harsh games and punish the players on a regular basis, before giving them a carrot and moving on. I wouldn't expect any of my players to hold a grudge because of that.

[Conrad]

I'm not sure I understand your question. If, however, Vincent insisted, I'd let him play a weaponless character. That would maybe calm him down.

It looks like you understand my question perfectly Gianni. How would you stop his character obtaining weapons during a game and trying to further his vendetta without more enmity from Vincent?

Edited April 9, 2011 by Conrad

[Conrad]

Wow, in 30 + years of roleplaying I don't think I've ever come across anyone that has taken a vendetta outside of a game. Seems to me that Vincent is deliberately trying to cause trouble, or he is just acting very immature.

Approximately how old is he?.

I met the guy once, he is about mid forties in age. I think his behaviour is a mixture of immaturity and either ignorance, or stupidity. From what I've been told of his behaviour he seems to have an inability to learn from his mistakes. I was wondering if just kicking him out of a game without first trying to show him the error of his ways was too harsh. But then again my own players are never as petty as this guy appears to be, so maybe I'm more willing to show some tolerance of such behaviour because it is uncommon in my experience as a player and GM.

We've had people play evil guys in a group of good guys, and on occasion they have been found out with the inevitable consequences. But I think my group is quite mature in outlook, so there wouldn't be any obvious evilness on the part of their character, and if they were caught I believe it would be more of a 'fair cop guv' rather than 'I will get you with my next character'.

I've played evil characters before, and they usually got what they deserved at the hands of other player characters. But I never felt inclined to blame them for the actions of a character I knowingly played as nasty.

There has to be a certain amount of flexibility, or compromise in players characters or you'd never get a decent mix of alignments and characters. So evil characters do turn up in our good parties from time to time, but the player knows the risks. I've done it, its fun literally getting away with murder..

I agree that it makes for a more interesting game, but the player only temporarily gets away with murder. The other PCs always end up administering justice, at least in the games I've played in!

Would I have allowed Vincent to take his vendetta into my game? No. I probably wouldn't invite him into any of my games.

But then I frequently run harsh games and punish the players on a regular basis, before giving them a carrot and moving on. I wouldn't expect any of my players to hold a grudge because of that.

Gianni and Mr Jealousy thanks for replying.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Conrad

[rust]

In our campaigns it is very rare that a player character gets killed by the other

player characters, but it has happened. If the death of the player character is

caused by a stupid decision of the character (player) and justified by the inner

logic of the setting, I expect the player to accept it without complaints and to

move on without holding a grudge - in the end, it was he who killed his charac-

ter.

If the player is unable to understand and accept this, I will explain it to him, but

only the first time it happens. If he does it again, I will tell him to search for ano-

ther game to join - my Rule 1 of gaming is never to do it with people who cannot

distinguish clearly between game reality and the real world.

[Conrad]

If the player is unable to understand and accept this, I will explain it to him, but

only the first time it happens. If he does it again, I will tell him to search for ano-

ther game to join - my Rule 1 of gaming is never to do it with people who cannot

distinguish clearly between game reality and the real world.

I agree with you Rust. Let the guy know that he is being stupid with his vendetta, and if he can't handle that, then oust him. I'm glad that such players as "Vincent" are rare, and that most players that I've met are mature and good humoured about what happens in a game. Even if they occasionally try to take on a Phung with only a pen knife, and have a perverse love of juggling antimatter grenades!

Edited April 9, 2011 by Conrad

[Aycorn]

This simply takes me back to my own personal rule: only play with mature friends who you know aren't going to be bozos. Period.

[Conrad]

This simply takes me back to my own personal rule: only play with mature friends who you know aren't going to be bozos. Period.

And thereby hangs a problem. Unless other trusted people have witnessed immature behaviour from this kind of player and warned you, you may inadvertantly let such a creature into your game.

[filbanto]

I think your friend has taken the easy way out by not telling Vincent why he is no longer welcome at the game. It also sounds like your friend has made a supposition that Vincent is out to sink the game if he is allowed to play. This may not be the case. He may have realized he acted like an ass and wants to make amends.

Your idea to talk about it over a couple of beers is an excellent suggestion. He should be sympathetic about the fate of Vincent's characters and also tell the guy he (your friend) did not like the way things played out. Your friend should let Vincent know his concerns and then set clear expectations for behavior in the next game. Let him know he gets the boot if things go poorly a third time. I'd have him write up a new character who "fit in" with the game better and go from there.

[GianniVacca]

How would you stop his character obtaining weapons during a game?

Well, if you read the Celestial Empire , you will notice that -- except during troubled times -- the Chinese had very little access to weapons. In the Judge Dee novels, people are usually killed with nails, stones, knives... because historically the average Chinese did not have access to swords or pole arms, only constables and soldiers did.