Height Advantage etc

[soltakss]

Does BRP still have a bonus for having a height advantage?

I can't find it in the rules, but it was always there in RQ.

What about other situational modifications? Attacking from the side/from behind?

[Mankcam]

Well quickly skimming through my rulebook which is laying here, it looks like there are combat rules for Big/Small Opponents, and also rules for Superior/Inferior Position. They're not exactly what you're after, but they could provide an idea on how to tweak height and flanking (Ch7: Spot Rules p211, BRP BGB).

Edited April 27, 2011 by Mankcam

[soltakss]

Thanks - I didn't spot those. I'll have a look this evening to see if they suit a Shieldwall on the top of a hill.

[soltakss]

Just had a look - Superior/Inferior Positions does the trick.

I suppose that Fortified Position could apply as well, but that gives the Shieldwall a huge advantage.

What do you think? Should a classic Shieldwall defence (A line of warriors side by side with shields interlocked) get the Fortified Position benefits? Basically, attacks on them become Difficult. If so, how many breaches stop it becoming a Shieldwall? My gut feeling is that if you have 2 people on either side then you have a Shieldwall. If one of those people go down then you lose the benefits (because of having to adjust the shield position , cope with any interlopers etc) but you still count as being in a Shieldwall when deciding if other people are in a Shieldwall.

So, if we have a Shieldwall consisting of 10 men in a circle, with 1 adjacent to 2 adjacent to 3 ... to 10 adjacent to 1. Man 5 goes down, so men 3,4,6,7 lose the Shieldwall advantage but men 1-2,8-10 don't. If the Shieldwall closes up so that 4 and 6 are adjacent, then everyone gets the Shieldwall bonus again.

[Mankcam]

I'ld probably go with the Cover & Fortified Position rules, yep it does give the Shieldwall formation a big protective advantage (opponents attacks at Difficult), but I guess the soldiers within may probably have the Enclosed Environment modifier which puts them at Difficult as well (although I'm not sure I like that - I'ld probably say because they are trained to fight in formation they only receive -20% to their attacks whilst in formation with other trained soldiers in a shieldwall). They'ld still have other benefits, such as fighting with superior numbers, and of course, the AP provided from their shields.

Yes, you'ld have to adjust the advantage according to any incapacitated warriors who have broken the wall, like you said.

I'm not sure if the BRP ROME book has anything on Shieldwall, I don't have it with me to check. I remember that it does have some additional spot rules to illustrate some facets of ancient combat, such as a variant Shield rule, but I'm not sure if there is anything in there regarding combat formation.

In any case, I think you're looking in the right area for making a fair ruling on it.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Mankcam

[soltakss]

Shieldwalls

A Shieldwall is a battle formation where a line of warriors stand side by side and link shields. This has several advantages:

· Warriors are less likely to be outflanked

· Warriors can be supported by their comrades on either side

· A Shieldwall is difficult to penetrate and offers a highly organised formation

· Warriors in the second rank can step through and replace fallen comrades, preventing the enemy from gaining ground

· Warriors further back can use missile fire to deplete the enemy's ranks

A Shieldwall is in place if 5 or more warriors stand side by side and link their shields in an organised manner. Any character in the front rank (Rank 1) of a Shieldwall is deemed to be in a Shieldwall if the two characters to either side are standing with shields interlocked. If a character loses his shield or falls down then the two men either side lose the Shieldwall advantage, but characters to their side still gain the Shieldwall advantage from them being in formation. This is because the men beside a fallen character have to regroup to reform the Shieldwall or must cope with the enemy who has caused the breach or is within the Shieldwall formation. It takes an Action to take the place of a fallen member of a Shieldwall or to reform a Shieldwall

Characters in a shieldwall have several advantages:

· They can use their shields to cover locations, effectively giving them extra armour on certain locations and giving them a different location chart

· They cannot parry with their shields but they can Dodge normally

· They get the benefits of the Fortified Position Spot Rule (BRP p225)

· Opponents cannot easily manoeuvre around men in a shieldwall

· Characters in the second rank (Rank 2) of a Shieldwall can use Long weapons against enemies attacking the Shieldwall, but this is a Difficult roll

· Characters behind Rank 2 can throw weapons at enemies attacking the Shieldwall, but this is a Difficult roll

· A shieldwall on the top of a hill gives those in the shieldwall height advantage, as explained in the Superior Position Spot Rule (BRP p232)

Location Melee Missile Add Shield APs?

Head 19-20 20 No

Left Arm 16-18 18-19 Yes

Right Arm 13-15 16-17 No

Chest 12 11-15 Yes

Abdomen 09-11 07-10 Yes

Left Leg 05-08 04-06 No

Right Leg 01-04 01-03 No

I can't get this to format correctly in a table. Can't remember the syntax and my googlefu doesn't seem to help ...

Edited April 27, 2011 by soltakss

[ORtrail]

I must admit that I see combats as a chance for the characters to shine in more-or-less single combat situations. The heroic one-on-one battles being ideal.

So, my eyes tend to glaze over when we get into mass combat situations. Nevertheless, I find this thread interesting. Several questions spring to mind though.

To attack a shieldwall formation, why not arc your missle weapons up and over the front row or two? I can't see attacks on the back ranks getting a difficult modifier, but then again it's more indirect fire, so....

Now, applying all this to the old Greek phalanx? It would seem hard for anyone on either side to really hit anyone. I guess it oftened turned into more of a shoving match, so how would you handle this?

I'd hand wave a good portion and narrate the progress of the battle, giving the characters chances for single combat and a morale/leadership bonus for doing well that could help their side win the day.

Once again we see that BRP can get all detailed and crunchy if you want, or just played fast-and-loose. I have my preference, but like seeing how the other half lives.

[filbanto]

I like a lot of this! My shieldwall knowledge comes from miniature gaming for the most part so take suggestions with that in mind:)

A shieldwall would not make it harder to outflank a group of warriors. Arguably it might be easier since the shieldwall would not be as mobile as a looser formation. It is really as good as the flanks it is anchored on. If you can get your warriors flanks protected by terrain or a mobile force like cavalry you have a very effective defense. If not, any enemy commander worth his salt isn't going to charge you head on. Your flanks also play into the size of the shieldwall as well. Two or three warriors could lock shields across a dungeon hallway for instance.

Only medium or large shields can form a shieldwall. The hit location table looks good for a medium shield. I think a large one would cover the legs as well. Against missile weapons I would allow warriors to crouch behind their shields and cover their heads as well. If you're not using hit locations you could rule that the shield always provides its armor points or has a percentage chance of doing so.

Movement while maintaining the shield wall would be slow. Half MOV at most and maybe slower. I'd argue against letting someone in the shieldwall use a Dodge. I picture Dodging requiring a bit of room to do though.

I think that historical reconstructions of shield wall battles picture one force slowly creeping up on the other while skirmishers are pelting everyone with missiles. When the two shieldwalls finally connect it basically comes down to a giant shoving match. If one side can push the other enough to break its cohesion a slaughter begins. If not it is the side that tires out first that loses. You may be able to replicate this with some kind of STR and CON resistance rolls (based off the sizes of the opposing forces).

[filbanto]

To attack a shieldwall formation, why not arc your missle weapons up and over the front row or two? I can't see attacks on the back ranks getting a difficult modifier, but then again it's more indirect fire, so....

I'm sure that was done. I know the Late Romans trained to hold shields locked in a couple of rows to protect against missile fire.

Ultimately I believe the shield wall was the "Tank" of its day. It went into decline as the nature of warfare changed to become more mobile when heavy horses could support a fully armored fighting man.

[Camillus]

Now, applying all this to the old Greek phalanx? It would seem hard for anyone on either side to really hit anyone. I guess it oftened turned into more of a shoving match, so how would you handle this?

I'd hand wave a good portion and narrate the progress of the battle, giving the characters chances for single combat and a morale/leadership bonus for doing well that could help their side win the day.

Once again we see that BRP can get all detailed and crunchy if you want, or just played fast-and-loose. I have my preference, but like seeing how the other half lives.

I'd use the Resistance Table - give each side a Phalanax (PHA?) rating and test them against each other. If the defenders are defeated (their PHA falls to the point where they automatically lose) then their formation is broken or they start taking casualties (or both).

I'd get PHA by doing something like total SIZ as a baseline with a modifier for the quality or skill level of the troops e.g:

• *0.5 for raw recruits (skill level 25% or less) or pressed levy;
  
• *0.75 for inexperienced troops (skill level 26-50%), motivated untrained volunteers or demotivated professionals;
  
• *1.0 for professionals (skill level 51-75%) or demoralised elite;
  
• *1.25 for elite (skill level 76%+)
  

I'd add other modifiers, for instance for a last stand (could be good or bad), and the quality of leadership. Leadership could either be a round to round modifier or once at the beginning or at key points in the exchange.

[soltakss]

I'm more into individual heroics, myself. The idea of smashing a Shieldwall or heroically defending it against a charge of Berserkers would do it for me.

Interesting ideas about unit combat, though, something that BRP probably needs.