Dreamland a variation upon a theme or?

[Gray Raven]

To introduce myself, I am a writer of fantasy novels that are set in Dreamland.  Here are the 'rules' of how I imagine Dreamland to function for the purposes of my novels.

My own exploration of Dreamland has been influenced by Myers and, of course, Lovecraft.  Although I have read and enjoyed Lumley's works, I have tended to imagine a significant difference from his version and even Lovecraft's.

That divergence starts with the effects of death in the Waking World on the Dreamer.  I don't like the idea that a Dreamer can obtain immortality.  I prefer that Dreamland is crafted by living Dreamers from the Waking World and thus impacted by cultural differences of those Dreamers who reside in differing time zones in the Waking World and in different times as well.  Thus, Lovecraft's Dreamland was significantly the product of the 1920s-1930s of New England.  I imagine that even in those years, Dreamland, as seen through the eyes of Waking World Western United States Dreamers, let alone Dreams of Australia, Japan, Korea, China, etc, would be significantly different.

To explain the seeming immortality of King Kuranes and Randolph Carter was a combination of the power of a Dreamer to warp time influenced by their own subjective perspective and perhaps aided by Nylarthotep's own capricious gift to the Dreamer.  Thus, it only seemed like those Dreamers were immortal.  They lived out each dying moment of their Waking World life as if it was hundreds if not thousands of years to them.  With my new rule that death in the Waking World ends a Dreamer's existence. Both of these Dreamers no longer live in Dreamland if a person in the year 1940s+ visits that realm.  The Dreamland crafted by a powerful Dreamer is sustained by the acceptance of living Dreamers and those native to the land itself.  Places and objects created by a Dreamer can live on after a Dreamer dies in the Waking World if the consensus of the still living Dreamers unconsciously still appreciates that creation.

This, of course, would affect the incorporation of ideas made by Lumley.  Since he, too, assumed that Waking World individuals can gain immortality in Dreamland.  According to my idea, those two main heroes in this novels only seemed to have immortality and a long existence in Dreamland beyond their physical Waking World deaths.  Again I would assume that from their subjective perspective, they did have all those adventures but that their Dreamland existence ended when their Waking World bodies died.  I also assume that Nylarlathotep aided their lingering Dream existence with its own powers.

The point of all of this is that my own Dreamland, set in the 1979-1980s of Dreamers who live in the San Francisco Bay Area, experiences a different world of this realm than Lovecraft's and Lumley's creations.  In such a setting, the individuals of Lovecrat are not alive during the Dreaming of my characters; they are simply legendary figures.  

Another notion is that my Dreamland occurs with Waking World 1980 Dreamers, and they would not encounter Lumley's Hero series characters since Lumley described events of Dreamland whose 'existence'  occurs in books published in 1986+.  Therefore it is a Dreamland that did not exist when my characters encountered Dreamland in 1979-1980.

Now the early writings of Gary Myers that were published prior to 1979 would be 'canonical' to Dreamland for my purposes since they describe a Dreamland that occurs simultaneous to when my Dreamers enter Dreamland. 

Now all of this means that when your scenarios occur matters.  Are you playing in the 2020s?  Where in the Waking World do your characters live?  The Dreamland they encounter would be somewhat different than Lovecraft's and Lumley's.  Your Dreamland would be affected by the cultural influences of the Dreamers; as I mentioned, a Dreamer from London would not experience the same Dreamland as a Dreamer from Hong Kong.  Different time zones and different cultures of the collective Dreaming of Waking World Dreamers would shape Dreamland to meet those Dreamers' subjective cultural biases.  Although they would all be able to visit the cities of Ulthar and Dylan-Lean there could be subtle differences between the experiences of those Dreamers.  

This also raises the question of the events of the history of Dreamland.  If a Dreamer from New York circa 2023 and a Dreamer from Hong Kong circa 2023, travel to Dreamland, my assumption is that those two individuals would not encounter each other due to the effects of when they were visiting Dreamland in their respective Waking World sleep.  My assumption is that if a New York Dreamer killed a native of Dreamland who resided in Ulthar, that native would be dead when the Hong Kong Dreamer walked the streets of Ulthar.  

I wanted to try to give a certain reality to the workings of the Dreamland. 

What do you all think of my radical and possibly blasphemous alterations to the Mythos?  My own Dreamland mythos have other assumptions and alterations to the mythos, and I could explain them if anyone is interested in my ideas and wants to explore this variation of Dreamland.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EricW]

I think absolutely 1970s dreamland would be different from 1920s dreamland, but 1920s dreamland should still be reachable. The Great Race from "The Shadow Out of Time" could psychically possess intelligent beings from their future, and Cthulhu has its share of ghostly presences lingering from the past, so I don't see why dreamlands of the past or future wouldn't be accessible, and fully populated by visitors from that era. 

A scattering of time travellers wandering through different dreamlands could add some interesting scenario starting points. Obviously you could attach various dangers etc. to exploring the furthest reaches of dreamtime. 

But its your game - do what you want 🙂

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by EricW

[g33k]

Affixing Dreamlands to progress according to the Dreamers' eras seems interesting & probable; but not to be strictly-adhered-to!!!

Dreams from any given era could be suffused with degrees of ancient histories, myths, faerie tales, "golden-age" romanticizing over the past, etc etc etc...  All changing with both new archeology & paleontology but also as pop-culture & fads push different memes & tropes into people's consciousness... of late, dreams-of-cthulhu (largely unrelated to any reality of mighty Cthulhu; just the pop-culture imagery!) likely exist in the Dreamlands, as do the currently-popular "Zombie Apocalypse" tropes.

But equally, dreams and speculations about the future, both wondrous and horrific.  1950s-1970s Dreamlands likely had sections of blasted nuclear wastelands, crawling with mutants.  Technophiles of all eras likely dream of spotless gleaming utopias (that undoubtedly feature prominently in the nightmares of those more -phobic than -philic with their techno- ).

As long as you're drawing from multiple sources, Gaiman's Sandman seems an obvious source of inspiration (graphic novels and Netflix-series both).

Edited October 21, 2023 by g33k

[g33k]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:12 AM, Gray Raven said:

...

That divergence starts with the effects of death in the Waking World on the Dreamer.  I don't like the idea that a Dreamer can obtain immortality.  I prefer that Dreamland is crafted by living Dreamers from the Waking World
...

There's too much good story potential there, IMO, to utterly abandon the idea to one absolute rule.  Personally, I would just make such "immortalities" be very very (very!) rare.

You don't need to rule-out rare/occasional immortalities, in order to have the Dreamlands largely follow the progress of the Waking World:  adopt roughly a "one dream, one vote" policy, and even very-powerful immortal Dreamers cannot hold much sway over the Dreamlands formed by the collective dreams of the mortal magnitudes.

Even if you say an immortal Dreamer is a thousand years old... that's nothing in the face of the hundreds of millions dreaming their modern dreams.

(however, such a thousand-year-old Dreamer may be a very-dangerous foe to an individual adventurer-dreamer, or an adventuring-party thereof!)

[Gray Raven]

G33K wrote: You don't need to rule-out rare/occasional immortalities, in order to have the Dreamlands largely follow the progress of the Waking World:  adopt roughly a "one dream, one vote" policy, and even very-powerful immortal Dreamers cannot hold much sway over the Dreamlands formed by the collective dreams of the mortal magnitudes.

Even if you say an immortal Dreamer is a thousand years old... that's nothing in the face of the hundreds of millions dreaming their modern dreams.

(however, such a thousand-year-old Dreamer may be a very-dangerous foe to an individual adventurer-dreamer, or an adventuring-party thereof!)

Ahh, but I do fall into the trap of consistency.  Even the realm of Dreamland should operate according to come set of rules/laws of physics, even if they are different than the Waking World physics.  Since in the Waking World, Dreamers do die, it makes sense that their Dream selves will also cease to exist. 

I agree that under extraordinary circumstances, with the Aid of Mythos Magick, a mortal Dreamer could leach out the life force of others to maintain their existence.  Thus, if King Kuranes and or Randolph Carter are immortal - they are so because they are using Mythos magick to sustain their continued existence - draining the life force of others. 

Now, since in my version, I do not consider either King Kuranes or Carter to use such magick, I, therefore, conclude that they do die and cease to exist.  Which is why a Dreamer in 1980 would not encounter them.

[Gray Raven]

G33K wrote: Affixing Dreamlands to progress according to the Dreamers' eras seems interesting & probable; but not to be strictly-adhered-to!!!

Dreams from any given era could be suffused with degrees of ancient histories, myths, faerie tales, "golden-age" romanticizing over the past, etc etc etc...  All changing with both new archeology & paleontology but also as pop-culture & fads push different memes & tropes into people's consciousness... of late, dreams-of-cthulhu (largely unrelated to any reality of mighty Cthulhu; just the pop-culture imagery!) likely exist in the Dreamlands, as do the currently-popular "Zombie Apocalypse" tropes.

But equally, dreams and speculations about the future, both wondrous and horrific.  1950s-1970s Dreamlands likely had sections of blasted nuclear wastelands, crawling with mutants.  Technophiles of all eras likely dream of spotless gleaming utopias (that undoubtedly feature prominently in the nightmares of those more -phobic than -philic with their techno- ).

 

I agree!  Legends, myths, and tales are all influences that would shape Dreamland when a Dreamer enters the realm.  Those myths, legends, tales, etc. would be part of the conscious ideas of natives and the conscious or unconscious ideas of Dreamers who visit the realm.

[Gray Raven]

Now, someone may ask, what about the priest guardians Kaman-Thah and Nasht?  Are they immortal?  In my own version of Dreamland, these two natives of Dreamland are, in actuality, the titles of a role assigned to that position by Nyarlathotep.  Thus, from the moment of creation of the realm of Dreamland, there has been assigned two natives to take on this role.  The natives have a natural life span; the specific individual eventually retires and is replaced by another to take on that role.  So long as Dreamers who come to Dreamland perform the rites and participate in the public rituals associated with the Temple of the Outer Gods, these roles are being given the power to do their job.  However, if Dreamers who come to the realm fail to participate in the rites, then there can come a time when Kaman-Thah and Nasht can no longer keep out certain Dreamers.  In my version of Dreamland, in 1933, this very thing happened, and anyone could venture into Dreamland from that year forward.  This sets the stage in my version of Dreamland for some interesting conflicts, issues, and dangers for natives and Dreamers.

[g33k]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:12 AM, Gray Raven said:

To introduce myself ...

I forgot to say:  hello, and welcome!

[Gray Raven]

On 10/21/2023 at 3:07 PM, g33k said:

As long as you're drawing from multiple sources, Gaiman's Sandman seems an obvious source of inspiration (graphic novels and Netflix-series both).

I really do like Gaiman's Sandman series.  I loved the Netflix live version they did of it.  However, Gaiman's Sandman would not match up with Lovecraft's Dreamland since Morpheus and the other Endless beings, I think, would conflict with Lovecraft's Mythos Gods and how they work and the kind of power they have.  I don't see that Morpheus would be willing to subordinate his power over Dreams/Dreamland to the Lovecraft Mythos Gods.  Obviously, a GM could incorporate elements into their Dreamland as they see fit.

[Gray Raven]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:07 PM, EricW said:

I think absolutely 1970s dreamland would be different from 1920s dreamland, but 1920s dreamland should still be reachable. The Great Race from "The Shadow Out of Time" could psychically possess intelligent beings from their future, and Cthulhu has its share of ghostly presences lingering from the past, so I don't see why dreamlands of the past or future wouldn't be accessible, and fully populated by visitors from that era. 

I agree that perhaps beings from the Great Race might be able to enter Dreamland directly.  I also agree that a specific Great Race individual, say R'lph, could inhabit a Waking World person in 1910 and then travel to Dreamland, then later R'lph inhabits a different Waking World person in 1930, and so on.  Thus, R'lph would have access to the differing time periods of Dreamland.  However, the Waking World person would still be locked in their own specific time and place.  When they inhabit a Waking World person, the Great Race does not transpose that person in time; they just study that person in their time and place.  At least as far as my reading of The Shadow Out of Time.

Therefore, I don't think that some Waking World human in 1980 could directly enter the Dreamland of the 1930s, i.e., Lovecraft's described version with its specific history.  Unless a Waking World person gets access to a Time Machine or a Time traveling spell.  

Always remembering the important Rabbinic principle of 'Your mileage may vary', and thus, your own variant of Dreamland could function differently than I'm describing.  I'm just trying to say that I prefer a consistent set of the laws of physics to describe how the Waking World and Dreamland would function.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 minutes ago, Gray Raven said:

I really do like Gaiman's Sandman series.  I loved the Netflix live version they did of it.  However, Gaiman's Sandman would not match up with Lovecraft's Dreamland since Morpheus and the other Endless beings, I think, would conflict with Lovecraft's Mythos Gods and how they work and the kind of power they have.  I don't see that Morpheus would be willing to subordinate his power over Dreams/Dreamland to the Lovecraft Mythos Gods.  Obviously, a GM could incorporate elements into their Dreamland as they see fit.

one of the things about the Dreamlands is that it is not the "Lovecraft mythos" per se. I mean, yeah, he created it, but the elements of Dreamland are nightmarish or beautiful in their own way that does not conform to the cosmic horror of his non-Dreamland works. There are shared elements in both (like ghouls), but the Dreamland has an much less grim outlook. In fact,The Dream-Quest has a beautiful ending: the Dreamer reaches the heavenly city. It's his own city of Boston in the summertime when he wakes up, and even The Cats of Ulthar is more like a folktale about justice than a horror story.

If I were to run Dreamlands, I don't know if Gaiman is thematically exactly what I'd use as an inspiration because the protagonist is a person, heroic or not (or feline!). It's definitely not a problem with mythos gods per se, moreso that there is a different kind of mystery in the theologies of the Dreamlands. I'm not sure if this is the right description but it seems more Dunsany in tone.

[Gray Raven]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

one of the things about the Dreamlands is that it is not the "Lovecraft mythos" per se. I mean, yeah, he created it, but the elements of Dreamland are nightmarish or beautiful in their own way that does not conform to the cosmic horror of his non-Dreamland works. There are shared elements in both (like ghouls), but the Dreamland has an much less grim outlook. In fact,The Dream-Quest has a beautiful ending: the Dreamer reaches the heavenly city. It's his own city of Boston in the summertime when he wakes up, and even The Cats of Ulthar is more like a folktale about justice than a horror story.

I agree that Dreamland is not as grim as Lovecraft's Waking World, ala Call of Cthulhu and the Cthulhu mythos cycle of stories.  Dreamland was a fairy tale/Arabian Night/Dunsany kind of place and atmosphere.  Thus potentially not filled with cosmic horror outcomes and consequences.  However, in Gary Myer's stories, things don't always end so nicely and beautifully for natives or Dreamers. 

 In my own variant of Dreamland it was created either originally or over time by Nylarthotep to be a sort of sanctuary for Waking World humans.  A means to escape either the human-created suffering and horrors or even to give to some extent an escape from the Mythos-inspired horrors done by creatures in the Waking World.  Even with that being said, my own Dreamland still runs parallel to the Lovecraftian Waking World of Cosmic Horror.  Thus, a Waking World Dreamer lives two intertwined lives, one in the Waking World with its consequences and problems and the other in Dreamland with its special consequences and problems.  The consequences of living a double life bleed over in both directions for a Dreamer.