Clarification regarding Firearms

[Keeper Bolog]

Hello!

I would like to know how you handle Firearms in Melee Combat...

By the rules you get a Bonus Die if you are within 1/5th of the shooters Dex from the target. This I presume also means for when you are face to face in melee with the enemy.

How does this interact with "Firing into Melee Combat" penalty die? Do they cancel each other out and the attack is without bonus or penalty dice? That is how I have run it until now. The rules are not too clear for me and that's why I am asking here! 😄 

What would be the correct interpretation of the rules in this case? Also how do you differentiate between 1/5th of Dex from the target (Point Blank) and face to face with the target (in Melee Combat)?

Thanks for the replies!

[1d8+DB]

Not in a position where I can check my rulebook: but I thought the 'Firing into Melee' rule was for situations where  character A fires at character B, who is is in Melee combat with character C. The Penalty die is because A is trying to avoid hitting C. So what matters here is how close  B is to C.

So if B and C are in Melee combat, and A is  within Point Blank range (1/5 Dex) of both combatants, I would probably rule that that the Point Blank Bonus and the  Firing Into Melee Penalty cancel each other out.

[Keeper Bolog]

16 minutes ago, 1d8+DB said:

Not in a position where I can check my rulebook: but I thought the 'Firing into Melee' rule was for situations where  character A fires at character B, who is is in Melee combat with character C. The Penalty die is because A is trying to avoid hitting C. So what matters here is how close  B is to C.

So if B and C are in Melee combat, and A is  within Point Blank range (1/5 Dex) of both combatants, I would probably rule that that the Point Blank Bonus and the  Firing Into Melee Penalty cancel each other out.

Currently how I am running it if A is shooting at B in melee I cancel the bonus die from point blank and the penalty die from being in melee. It seems logical to me for it being hard to shoot if you get punched in the face at the same time. So with both canceling each other out it becomes just a normal roll instead of bonus because of point blank

But I am curious what other people are doing as well so thanks for the reply!

Edited February 29 by Keeper Bolog

[CoasterjunkieX]

Originally, I ruled the bonus/penalty cancelled as well, but after much research on this topic, my final finding was CoC does not provide rules for shooting at an enemy you are engaged in melee combat with simply becaue the rules don't intend for you to be able to shoot someone you are in melee with.  If you are engaged in melee, you must use a fighting(x) skill.  The rationale seemed to be that if someone is close enough to engage you in melee, they are close enough to disrupt your attempt to shoot them and you have to resort to melee attacks.  I can't recall atm what my conclusion for "shooting someone you are not in melee with while you are engaged by someone else" was, but I think I still allowed that.

Disengaging takes an action, but automatically happens (unless you are playing pulp). So assuming you are slower than an enemy but they do not have a dex 50 higher than yours, this allows you to disengage then shoot at the +50 dex bonus before the enemy can act.  If you are faster than an enemy, I think you can get locked into a disengage-engaged loop, but hopefully you already shot them on round one?

Edited February 29 by CoasterjunkieX
typo

[1d8+DB]

So looking at the combat example  on page 115,  on round 2, when the ghoul enters melee combat with Harvey; Harvey get's a bonus die for Point Blank range  (which he then looses because he's firing off multiple rounds), there's no mention of the 'Firing Into Melee' modifier.  There's a difference between 'Firing INTO Melee' and 'Firing WHILE IN Melee'. 

In the latter case  you only use the Point Blank range modifier. If you want to be really simulationist you might require a successful Fighting Maneuver  if an individual with a long-arm (rifle) is engaged in Melee, as the shooter has to make sure the  gun-barrel is not batted aside or pushed to the side.

It's your game, and can play as you wish; but I think the intent of the designers is clear-- if you're using a fire-arm in melee, you get the Point Blank modifier (unless of course you are shooting someone beyond your immediate combatant). 

 

[CoasterjunkieX]

Well dang it. I thought I had finally figured that one out. Thanks for digging that out of the example, it's probably the longest example block in the book.  Does finally puts some things to rest, though.  As for the "simulationist" method you talk about, that's at least covered with an optional rule on p. 127 with "point-blank revisited."

[mvincent]

On 2/29/2024 at 5:51 AM, Keeper Bolog said:

How does this interact with "Firing into Melee Combat" penalty die? Do they cancel each other out

That's how I play it... though that's likely not the designers' intent. Other games give a penalty to ranged combat when an enemy is nearby, but I only use the "Firing into melee" Nope-card when someone asks for a point-blank bonus. I have effectively eliminated both modifiers in an effort to streamline the game. As a former police officer and soldier, I assure you that "realism" is better served through speedy combat than number crunching.

[EricW]

Firearms are interesting from a combat POV. It's pretty difficult to aim and fire if someone is gripping your hand, gaining control of the weapon is what I was taught in martial arts, though I never got to black belt. But the further you are from the target the better your chances of a clean shot, though beyond point blank range, aiming becomes more important. 

So if someone is 1ft away and aware you are trying to shoot them, I would have no problem applying a penalty compared to say being 7ft away. 

[Numtini]

I've always ruled that you get the point blank bonus even if someone is attacking you with a melee attack because you are dodging (not fighting back--you can't fight back by shooting) and part of dodging is getting the space for that shot. I don't consider someone in that position to be "in melee." In the example of gaining control of the weapon by grabbing the hand, that's a maneuver and if successful and not dodged, yeah shootings over. And that's probably the best play if you're trying to physically attack someone who's shooting at you. But with that +50 to initiative for a readied weapon, you're going to have to deal with them putting a shot or two into you before you get a chance to try that. If you choose to "fight back" by hitting them physically with a gun, I house rule that you are then in melee and don't have the ability to shoot until you've dodged for a round.

[Starcatcher]

I mostly run normal oneshots and pulp from time to time. I allow to "parry" a shot in melee by averting the line of fire and trying to stay with the armed person when they try to disengange. Another way I used to do is to give 2 penalty dice (and no bonus to close proximity) due to someone trying to fire a weapon while beeing engaged in a melee situation, especially when you are grappled. Bigger guns like rifles should require to break free in some form before beeing able to fire.

Also a good way is to make a contested melee attack before a shot to basically wrestle the weapon free to shot. Its functionally a "maneuver" to be able to shot, disengage or throw the adversary to the ground etc. Mix it up a little, in regards to the situation, and guns remain dangerous enough but give some room for counterplay.