Love (Knowledge)

[Memestream]

Is this actually a thing? The writeup for Irrippi Ontor in The Lunar Way and Lhankor Mhy in The Lightbringers cult books seems to suggest it is.

Are these lines pure flavor? How would it differ from simply having a high Truth rune value in play? I had a player ask about it and I wanted to dismiss it, but they sort of cleverly pointed out the idea of Fear/Hate (Knowledge) and those actually sort of made sense to me.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[glarkhag]

3 hours ago, Memestream said:

Is this actually a thing? The writeup for Irrippi Ontor in The Lunar Way and Lhankor Mhy in The Lightbringers cult books seems to suggest it is.

Are these lines pure flavor? How would it differ from simply having a high Truth rune value in play? I had a player ask about it and I wanted to dismiss it, but they sort of cleverly pointed out the idea of Fear/Hate (Knowledge) and those actually sort of made sense to me.

 

Any thoughts on this?

I see it as a thirst for knowledge, which is not what the truth rune brings to personality as written.  Some people (low in Love knowledge) watch a "historical" film and take it as seen. Those with a thirst for (high love ) knowledge will read up on what actually happened. Yes there is an element of the truth rune here but it depends on the intent. The truth rune aspect would be seeking to disprove the veracity of the film. The love for knowledge passion would be finding out just for the sake of finding out more because films usually only scratch the surface. Subtle difference I agree. 

High love knowledge people will be constantly learning, exploring, critiquing, curious ( in my games). Truth rune people are straight forward, straight talking people. Not very good at office politics and diplomacy. They don't have to be super knowledgeable (e.g humakti).

Also, the truth rune, imo, would not have a relationship with feelings about knowledge being destroyed but the passion most definitely would have a problem.  The library burns down:

The high truth rune lady comments"the library burnt down. Thousands of scrolls lost. Two hundred years of records lost. That's going to be a lot of overtime."

The love knowledge passion guy is just weeping and beating his chest. 

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Memestream said:

Is this actually a thing? The writeup for Irrippi Ontor in The Lunar Way and Lhankor Mhy in The Lightbringers cult books seems to suggest it is.

Yes.

While you could create a new Passion (e.g. Obsession), Love for some type of object or abstract concept/idea works too. 

[Memestream]

@glarkhag

Thank you for that elaboration, and that distinction makes a great deal of sense in terms of rendering flavor. It likewise puts in some work as to how I could use this to spur drama for the character in question. Furthermore, the idea made sense to me on the basis that Lhankor Mhy's existence in mythic reality is really wrapped up in his love of knowledge, so it makes sense that there would be echoes of that fact within the world itself.

However, my main concern with allowing the player to take it(which I didn't outright disallow, but merely stated that I would have to think on) is that "Knowledge" is literally an entire category of abilities. Passions are already strong, and having a call-on for virtually any knowledge check at all like that seems borderline abusive of the season as I read it. Then again, I guess you can only augment with a(specific) passion once per session, so maybe that's not as big of a deal as I'm imagining it will be.

EDIT: Then again, if the character has a high Truth Rune AND Love (Knowledge), they would have two associated boosts per session for a whole category. 

EDIT2: Love(Communication) for an Issaries cultist?  🤯 What isn't communication? Knocking somebody on the head is the communication of force!

I mean I really want to let this happen, but I might have worked myself into something of a corner by allowing for poetic interpretations in the way of augments previously. I guess I'll just have to fall back on the old chestnut of "Not in Glorantha it seems" if this gets too out of hand.

Edited June 8 by Memestream

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Memestream said:

However, my main concern with allowing the player to take it(which I didn't outright disallow, but merely stated that I would have to think on) is that "Knowledge" is literally an entire category of abilities.

I think what you have to separate out is the difference between a Passion such as Love (Knowledge) and a Rune or Lore skill.

An augment with a Lore skill is very focused - something about the skill provides an advantage in an immediate situation.

An inspiration via the Truth Rune is broader, but should emphasize the PC's use of rational thinking, logic, organization/classification of knowledge to a given situation. Maybe in the midst of combat it is identifying that the foe fights in a particular way. Or in the midst of a debate, the PC can organize their argument and points clearly.

But Love (Knowledge) is NOT a boost to lore or Truth. It is an Obsession/Desire for something. This is the core of "Curiosity Killed the Cat". It functions more as a Flaw or a drive to do something. Are there indications that there should be documents in the room? Then Yes, the Passion could be invoked to help with a methodical Search. Will they fight to protect a Library from being Burned Down? Yes, if they are inspired by that Passion. 

The PC with this Passion is GREEDY for Knowledge. If it means they want to steal a document from someone else, or even take a document from the Knowledge Temple, they may be pushed to do so. They will think the document should truly be theirs (they may think they are the best to protect it; or they simple need to complete their collection of X, etc.).

You can always have them focus it more specifically such as Love (God Learner artifacts). That may help emphasize this is as much a negative trait as a positive one. 

2 hours ago, Memestream said:

EDIT: Then again, if the character has a high Truth Rune AND Love (Knowledge), they would have two associated boosts per session for a whole category. 

Do NOT think of Love (Knowledge) as a Category boost! It has almost nothing to do with the Knowledge skills. (Perhaps if they get/obtain a particular document it will allow Research into a particular skill, but the Passion does not support the Lore - it supports the Obtaining or Retention of documents, artifacts, etc.)

2 hours ago, Memestream said:

EDIT2: Love(Communication) for an Issaries cultist?

That's not going in the right direction for a Love Passion. For a merchant, if you want a Love (object) Passion it functions similar to Raw Greed (an Issaries curse). Love (gems), for instance, means you really desire gems and if you see a nice one, you want it, and you're willing to bargain whatever or even steal to get it.

 

[g33k]

11 hours ago, glarkhag said:

...

Also, the truth rune, imo, would not have a relationship with feelings about knowledge being destroyed but the passion most definitely would have a problem.  The library burns down:

The high truth rune lady comments"the library burnt down. Thousands of scrolls lost. Two hundred years of records lost. That's going to be a lot of overtime."

The love knowledge passion guy is just weeping and beating his chest. 

☝️ THIS

The library burned down.

That doesn't affect .  It's just a new fact, a new element of  (unless there's some mystic, -enhancing aspect to libraries).
Logistically, it makes advancing the "cause" of (studying Truth, spreading knowledge of Truth) harder... but that's just logistics.

The "Love(knowledge)" character is passionate.
If they were there, they likely were risking their life running into the burning building to rescue papyri & scrolls &c.

===

I'd also expect it to be more personal:
"Love(knowledge)" wants to learn.  THEY want to personally do the knowing of the Knowledge; that is their Passion.
High wants hidden  to be uncovered, recorded... known somewhere... that is what advances 
Love(knowledge) will risk their lives to learn "New Stuff."
High  will risk their lives to get valuable/useful new scrolls back to the Temple... even in the surety that they'll never, personally, learn from the scrolls.

Edited June 8 by g33k

[g33k]

Very much agree with all of Jaja's comments, with one caveat on this element:

41 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

... The PC with this Passion is GREEDY for Knowledge. If it means they want to steal a document from someone else, or even take a document from the Knowledge Temple, they may be pushed to do so. They will think the document should truly be theirs (they may think they are the best to protect it; or they simple need to complete their collection of X, etc.) ...

I'd clarify the element of "greediness."  It's absolutely a possibility!

But...

Stealing from the Knowledge Temple is actually stealing the knowledge; it reduces one collection to enhance another; unless a living sage had memorized the document, this is an actual blow to .  It's illegal, dishonorable... and it's risky  (remember:  H u m a k  also has  as a personal rune (*) !!! ) .

If that's their go-to strategy, it seems to me more like a "Love(Secrets)" passion ...  That's more  than  imho.  (**)

Could they satisfy their "Love (Knowledge)" by just asking (presumably with a hefty donation) to borrow the document from the Knowledge Temple?
Could they hire a Temple scribe to make a copy of it?  (I believe such transactions are a non-trivial source of Temple income)
Could they visit the Temple, day after day, and study the scroll until their Love was surfeit on that particular Knowledge?  (I believe many Temples approve of spreading  and let lay-members & above study cheaply, or even freely... particularly if they've done "notable service").

I would only expect someone with "Love(knowledge)" to steal from the Knowledge Temple if (a) they had exhausted all other avenues; and/or (b) they had a firm belief that the knowledge was somehow dangerous to the Knowledge Temple, or to the Knowledge Priests there.
 

 

(*) campaign notion:  nerds&jocks, LM&H (any PC with very-high ) on all- missions.

(**) and now I want to make a -oriented Scribe, more about "Secrets" than "Knowledge."

 

Edited June 8 by g33k

[jajagappa]

53 minutes ago, g33k said:

Stealing from the Knowledge Temple is actually stealing the knowledge

Yes, of course it is. Now if that happens to be a sage, then there are issues, but... you could get around that by 1) keeping it in your room at the temple (assuming you have such), or 2) "borrowing" it for your research with an intent to return it (though you never quite seem to get around to doing so).

56 minutes ago, g33k said:

more like a "Love(Secrets)" passion ...  That's more  than  imho. 

That's an option, but that implies some level of "secret" knowledge. This could be someone who likes to collect gossip about others, or someone who truly wants to obtain esoteric secrets (God Learners, EWF, Chaos cults, Nysaloran riddles, etc.). Likely you don't tell others about that. 

With Love (Knowledge), it may be as likely that they simply MUST stop at the local Knowledge Temple to see what new lore has been gathered, or explore the Nochet markets for scrolls or maps brought back by the sea captains, etc. Or if they are venturing into a new city or a new region, they have to explore all of it (or as much as they can), so they can feel they've satisfied their quest for knowledge (maybe it means they want a week or two or a season to fully explore a place). And everyone else knows that's what they'll likely do.  The point wasn't that they'd have to steal knowledge (though that might be a direction the passion takes them in), but they have a need to know or a need to acquire knowledge.

 

[g33k]

16 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

... That's an option, but that implies some level of "secret" knowledge ...

Once you've taken the knowledge away from the Knowledge Temple (reducing the degree to which it "is" known, or "can be learned") IMO you're solidly into the realm of secrets -- it's not "implied" at all, it's quite explicit.

If nothing else, you've created your own secret:  is the theft known?  Even if known, we presume the ID of the thief isn't!

 

23 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

... esoteric secrets (God Learners, EWF, Chaos cults, Nysaloran riddles, etc.). Likely you don't tell others about that. 

IMG, there are very-many LM priests who are perfectly OK with such interests, as "pure knowledge" (not to be acted-upon).

Of course, most of them understand such things must be pursued ... discreetly.
Many people will judge such pursuits quite harshly indeed!  Regrettably, even some of your fellow-sages!
 

27 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

... 

With Love (Knowledge), it may be as likely that they simply MUST stop at the local Knowledge Temple to see what new lore has been gathered, or explore the Nochet markets for scrolls or maps brought back by the sea captains, etc. Or if they are venturing into a new city or a new region, they have to explore all of it (or as much as they can), so they can feel they've satisfied their quest for knowledge (maybe it means they want a week or two or a season to fully explore a place). And everyone else knows that's what they'll likely do.  The point wasn't that they'd have to steal knowledge (though that might be a direction the passion takes them in), but they have a need to know or a need to acquire knowledge.

Just so!

And sometimes that first stop at the Knowledge Temple is really F'ing inconvenient, like when the local Thane is urgently awaiting your return from a mission.  He'll be quite sour to learn what you did, maybe feel personally slighted, etc.

Or you need to stop to see if the Issaries merchant has finally gotten that rare scroll he said he'd get... but the party is trying to get out of town ASAP because "somebody" has pissed off the Thane.

etc.

[Memestream]

20 hours ago, g33k said:

If that's their go-to strategy, it seems to me more like a "Love(Secrets)" passion ...  That's more  than  imho.  (**)

...

(**) and now I want to make a -oriented Scribe, more about "Secrets" than "Knowledge."

Funny thing, this is what we settled on for the passion as it relates to the character concept in question! Particularly on the basis that we agreed that the intersection of and  would be "secrets" (among other things).

 

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I think what you have to separate out is the difference between a Passion such as Love (Knowledge) and a Rune or Lore skill.

I think this was the root of my apprehension. Given the similarity of their mechanical effect there was a conflation within my mind at some level between when and how the two are applied. It now makes perfect sense to me that Love(Knowledge) would apply to a circumstance in which the PC stood to obtain knowledge through their endeavor, rather than in the application of said knowledge. Passions are what is trying to be achieved(ends), where runes and skills are how it's being achieved(means). This answers not only this question but illuminates the distinction between the two in a way that makes me feel comfortable with virtually anything being written down in the passion column.

Which is a relief, because I've already allowed other players to write down passions that don't even fall within the suggested categories of Love/Hate/Fear/Loyalty/Devotion and I really didn't want the first one I turned down to be something that was almost explicitly suggested by the material itself.

EDIT: This distinction does lead me to the related but separate question:

Is it fair and/or fun to ask players to roll when acting contrary to passions when those passions are below 80%? Is it even fair and/or fun to ask players to roll when acting contrary to passions if those passions are 80%+?

Edited June 9 by Memestream
Tangent

[jajagappa]

44 minutes ago, Memestream said:

Is it fair and/or fun to ask players to roll when acting contrary to passions when those passions are below 80%? Is it even fair and/or fun to ask players to roll when acting contrary to passions if those passions are 80%+?

60-80% is more likely roleplay territory. Where I'd likely have them roll is when they have conflicting Passions and don't have a clear take on what direction they want to go. In those cases, I tend to have them make Opposed Rolls on the two Passions.

[glarkhag]

Also, you don't have to make them roll ever but you can reduce their passion if they play against it. They can't have their cake and eat it. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

Yes I accept anything as passion so why not love knowledge

however that doesn’t mean you can use this passion to augment the skill lore xxx.

if you roll to identify a plant, a mineral or a law that ´s a roll to check if you know / remember or not. That’s not a question of passion. But if you want to augment your dodge because you get a rare book you want to save from the fire, yes you can use your passion