Pilgrimages

[Luca Cherstich]

I really like the idea of pilgrimages from p.217-218!

It's brilliant.

"Pilgrimages" cannot be obtained from table 13.2, so I guess someone needs to choose to go there (and I could maybe allow doing it even to someone who has played a short scenario this year).

Nevertheless, I feel that some kind of limitations is missing.

Salisbury (the most common Starting homeland) has too many sites (2 Christian and 2 pagan ones), therefore it is maybe too easy for most player knights to make pilgrimages.

The only apparent limitation is the mention of "distant holy site" on p.217.

How much is "distant"? I guess the minimum should be 50 miles (as it is the minimum to be paid for "noble style" pilgrimages as per p.218) but maybe we should also add the necessity of at least travelling to a different county.

Any thoughts?

Edited July 3 by Luca Cherstich

[Tizun Thane]

21 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Salisbury (the most common Starting homeland) has too many sites (2 Christian and 2 pagan ones), therefore it is maybe too easy for most player knights to make pilgrimages.

I was thinking the same. Your limitation makes sense.

[Morien]

Miracles are way too common.

My house-rule: 1 Miracle on a Critical, that's it. Success brings a checkmark for the Passion, and is worthwhile by that alone.

Also, you could penalize the Devotion if the site is close by. Like:
Same County -15
Neighboring County -10
Less than a week away (about 100 miles) -5
Far away, months to get there (Rome, Jerusalem, Delphi) +5

Edited July 4 by Morien

[Morien]

3 hours ago, Morien said:

Miracles are way too common.

And some are pretty powerful, like restoring +1d2 characteristic points, which is enough to make a PK functionally immortal as long as they do a pilgrimage per year, and the +1d3 Healing Rate for a year ensures that they pop up from normally mortal wounds like Wolverine. Besides, it irks me that the Players get to choose, practically turning the Miracles into a vending machine of bonuses.

3 hours ago, Morien said:

Also, you could penalize the Devotion if the site is close by. Like:
Same County -15
Neighboring County -10
Less than a week away (about 100 miles) -5
Far away, months to get there (Rome, Jerusalem, Delphi) +5

Now, on reflection, the downside of the above is that the higher your Devotion, the easier it is to do a close-by pilgrimage, and that is opposite of what one would expect, isn't it? So maybe instead, the distance you have to travel depends on the Devotion?

Same County: Devotion less than 5
Less than a week away (about 100 miles): Devotion 5-15
More than a week away: Devotion 16-19
Far away, months to get there (Rome, Jerusalem, Delphi): Devotion 20+

In any case, I would never allow more than one pilgrimage solo per year.

[Luca Cherstich]

1 hour ago, Morien said:

And some are pretty powerful, like restoring +1d2 characteristic points, which is enough to make a PK functionally immortal as long as they do a pilgrimage per year, and the +1d3 Healing Rate for a year ensures that they pop up from normally mortal wounds like Wolverine. Besides, it irks me that the Players get to choose, practically turning the Miracles into a vending machine of bonuses.

Now, on reflection, the downside of the above is that the higher your Devotion, the easier it is to do a close-by pilgrimage, and that is opposite of what one would expect, isn't it? So maybe instead, the distance you have to travel depends on the Devotion?

Same County: Devotion less than 5
Less than a week away (about 100 miles): Devotion 5-15
More than a week away: Devotion 16-19
Far away, months to get there (Rome, Jerusalem, Delphi): Devotion 20+

In any case, I would never allow more than one pilgrimage solo per year.

Or maybe let combine the Devotion/Mileage limitation+ the penalty to the Devotion roll

[Luca Cherstich]

1 hour ago, Morien said:

And some are pretty powerful, like restoring +1d2 characteristic points, which is enough to make a PK functionally immortal as long as they do a pilgrimage per year, and the +1d3 Healing Rate for a year ensures that they pop up from normally mortal wounds like Wolverine. Besides, it irks me that the Players get to choose, practically turning the Miracles into a vending machine of bonuses.

5 hours ago, Morien said:

You are right.

I kind of feel that these pilgrimage rules miss some balancing mechanics, or maybe they were not tested enough.

[Donald]

„A site may be visited any number of times, but any miracle only occurs once.“

At least this limitation exists.

Edit:

(Cant reply because of forum-newbie limitations)

I read it as „every single miracle listet in the book only occurs once in a lifetime of a KnIght.“

Edited July 5 by Donald

[Morien]

53 minutes ago, Donald said:

„A site may be visited any number of times, but any miracle only occurs once.“

At least this limitation exists.

Clearly, since a Critical gives 3 miracles, it is not a limit in a sense of "1 miracle per site only". So it is either "any specific miracle can only happen once per site, no stacking of boni allowed" or an even more prosaic reading ("Even if you had a miracle last time, it won't renew automatically, you have to roll."). The latter is not really a limit, and the former would require very annoying book-keeping.

Well, there is a third option that would make it less annoying... which is that while you can visit the site many times, you only get to roll Devotion during your first trip (or until you succeed), i.e. you can't get ANY miracles on subsequent visits. This actually sounds like it would be reasonable, since the Player is probably keeping track of any pilgrimage solo anyway. "Pilgrimage to St. Stephen's" for instance (with a mention of a miracle if any). Prevents PKs from visiting a single nearby site every year in hopes of miracles.

But as I said, I still think they are too common with a mere success in Devotion.

Edited July 5 by Morien

[AlHazred]

1 hour ago, Morien said:

Well, there is a third option that would make it less annoying... which is that while you can visit the site many times, you only get to roll Devotion during your first trip (or until you succeed), i.e. you can't get ANY miracles on subsequent visits. This actually sounds like it would be reasonable, since the Player is probably keeping track of any pilgrimage solo anyway. "Pilgrimage to St. Stephen's" for instance (with a mention of a miracle if any). Prevents PKs from visiting a single nearby site every year in hopes of miracles.

This would match Real Life fairly well, since the point of a pilgrimage is to show your devotion, and once you go to a site you've shown it -- you have to go somewhere new and more distant to show continuing devotion. And I would assume that knights raised in particularly religious households have already done any pilgrimages to nearby holy sites in their youth, so those can't be done again.

[Luca Cherstich]

3 hours ago, Donald said:

„A site may be visited any number of times, but any miracle only occurs once.“

You're right, that's a limitation, and somehow a balancing factor.

Even so, too many pilgrimage sites are in Salisbury (Amesbury, Sarum Cathedral), adjacent counties(Glastonbury) or not very far counties (St. Illtud or the Wells of St. Winefride).

Given that Salisbury is the default homeland for most games, there are frankly too many opportunities for knights with high Devotion to get the "Restore Characteristic" miracle.

Furthermore....how do you deal with the costs for too near sites?

The Salisbury sacred sites are less than 50 miles for Salisbury Knights:

• "Noble style" pilgrimage: will it still cost £1?
• "Ascetic style" pilgrimage: will you really get those checks and even the Aging roll.....for a trip which sometimes can be less than 1 day long?

Imagine a household knight of Roderick/Robert, living in Sarum, and doing a pilgrimage to Salisbury Cathedral....which requires maybe 10 minutes of walk!

Even Amesbury is 5 or 6 miles from Sarum....too many opportunities indeed.

Edited July 5 by Luca Cherstich

[Nozbat]

On 7/3/2024 at 3:48 PM, Luca Cherstich said:

The only apparent limitation is the mention of "distant holy site" on p.217.

I would have thought 'distant' means Rome, Jerusalem, maybe Santiago de Compostela even

Or as someone up there said.. Delphi... and Newgrange, Karnak in Egypt or Carnac in Normandy etc, for pagans

Historically, these sites meant a lot of deprivation and travelling on foot across dangerous, hostile terrain, not to mention people who might want to stop the pilgrims. The travel and contemplation were as much part of the pilgrimage as the place

[Luca Cherstich]

8 minutes ago, Nozbat said:

I would have thought 'distant' means Rome, Jerusalem, maybe Santiago de Compostela even

Or as someone up there said.. Delphi... and Newgrange, Karnak in Egypt or Carnac in Normandy etc, for pagans

Historically, these sites meant a lot of deprivation and travelling on foot across dangerous, hostile terrain, not to mention people who might want to stop the pilgrims. The travel and contemplation were as much part of the pilgrimage as the place

Off course.....but again, there's a gap in the rules, as all sacred sites (near or distant) are on the same lists while the "£1 per 50 miles" or the Ascetic rules are the only (incomplete) "cost indicators".

Edited July 5 by Luca Cherstich

[Vortimer]

I would expect these to be further expanded in a latter book, for those who want them. More than likely, the Faith and Miracles book, will be the place to further expand on them (but, do not quote me as I do not have definitive information). As it is, they do provide a framework to work from and YPWV can cover the rest. One option would be "YOU" would be escorting someone else going on a pilgrimage. Those entries are in the table, both local and distant. As you, personally, are not doing the quest, I would allow only 1 Miracle on a critical and none on the rest. You could also make a roll for the person going on the quest and if they receive a miracle, then if witnessed by the PK, perhaps a bump up 1 level on their devotion roll.