Question about Poison

[Lloyd Dupont]

When the poison has a potency of, say 60. Does it mean we opposed skill roll 60% vs Endurance% (we both roll).

Or the poison is considered to have rolled 60% and the character has to roll higher or critical success? (it's what I am planning to do).

Although... I am trying to port Master of Magic beast to Mythras.. and it looks like the Great Wyrm would have a potency of 150% or something insane and.. how could you beat that? you can't roll higher than 150%... (I mean.. I guess with Endurance higher than 150% one lower the potency below 100%?)

 

[Raleel]

Opposed roll. The poison has to roll. 

[Lloyd Dupont]

In a related question. I am porting some monsters which have fantastical power.

Let's go with a basic petrification.

I was thinking, if they fail their defense, then they can do a will power vs the combat skill roll of the creature? (instead of rolling again a "petrification" skill vs endurance)

and what of if they succeed their combat style defence roll hey? maybe only have to save against the power if they take damage? or the power should be a combat effect?

actually the power as a combat effect seems good... except poison is done differently... so it's kind of weird that way...

Edited September 11 by Lloyd Dupont

[Atgxtg]

12 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

actually the power as a combat effect seems good... except poison is done differently... so it's kind of weird that way...

Probably because in combat poison is usually a secondary effect. That is one opponent strikes the other with a poisoned weapon and does damage, plus exposes the foe to poison.

[Simulacrum]

Depends how the petrification is administered, if its a gaze attack the monster presumably has a gaze attack skill (maybe just its monster combat style), the target, if able to act, presumably can attempt Evade, or if it were Perseus with his shield, maybe you would allow Combat Style.  Then treat similarly to poison - so the character has two chances to avoid the attack. If this seems too much (and repetitive) because there is no harm at all from the original attack unless the petrification effect works, then factor a lesser harm, rather than complete avoidance, in the event the Endurance roll (matched against the original attack roll) wins out, so the result of the first opposed roll still lands in some way. In this case if the attack lands, only a critical on the Endurance that also beats the attack results in no effect. 

[Lloyd Dupont]

Hey yall.. thanks for commenting! 🙂 

I put my thoughts better as well... got some additional feedback on that topic...

Anyway, about attack effect. In BRP one compare the level of success to know if the attack succeeded, and gaining a combat effect is akin to comparing level of success, so this would feel very natural to BRP players!
And indeed, I also restricted most crazy magic weapon effect to combat effect. For example, to disintegrate with a sword of disintegration, you need to get a special effect (and overcome a willpower save 1 grade harder)! So it's not "that easy", but still happen often enough.
But, in Mythras (I can't believe I misread that for years, but it makes good sense too), a successful attack is always successful and inflict damage. And a successfully parry always block an amount of damage. Additionally, comparing difference in level of success is where combat effects come into play and grant an extra oomph to the better level of success.

So, now, for example, I was looking at the cockatrice monster. They have it in Classic Fantasy for Mythras, and mmm... reading it now there is a whole paragraph on the topic, basically it takes 2 attacks to inflict petrifying poison. Anyway, at the moment, I am aligning my monster power on Master of Magic primarily so it's a simple petrifying peck. Doesn't really need to bypass AP. But they need to hit. What if someone parries? Mmm... I think just answered myself, they just need to overcome the parry. Which can be unambiguously calculated! Yeeha! Although... wait... If it can petrify through armor... perhaps it can probably petrify through shield too... mmm... but perhaps with 1 easier save grade hey?
Thanks for spurring my thoughts...

In a vaguely related topic, creating your own monsterpedia can be fun (though, ahem, time consuming...) Nothing extraordinary so far, on top of the Master of Magic official zoo, added frostwarg, faes, valkyries, vampires and liches. And also a Succubus equivalent, yeeha. Though strictly speaking they won't be lust demon (because, please, this is just some silly Christian shame porn thing), they will just be master manipulator, and there will be 2 sorts, female Efreet (chaos magic creature with the doomfire!) and female demon-wannabe-lord (death magic creatures with the deathly gaze). I am afraid I won't hellfire in this setting. But chaos' realm doom damage is a good equivalent I reckon.

Edited September 12 by Lloyd Dupont

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Hey yall.. thanks for commenting! 🙂 

I put my thoughts better as well... got some additional feedback on that topic...

Anyway, about attack effect. In BRP one compare the level of success to know if the attack succeeded, and gaining a combat effect is akin to comparing level of success, so this would feel very natural to BRP players!
And indeed, I also restricted most crazy magic weapon effect to combat effect. For example, to disintegrate with a sword of disintegration, you need to get a special effect (and overcome a willpower save 1 grade harder)! So it's not "that easy", but still happen often enough.
But, in Mythras (I can't believe I misread that for years, but it makes good sense too), a successful attack is always successful and inflict damage. And a successfully parry always block an amount of damage. Additionally, comparing difference in level of success is where combat effects come into play and grant an extra oomph to the better level of success.

Yeah, but remember with stuff like poison it depends on if it is a contact poison (just has to touch skin) or if it needs to get into the bloodstream (has to be edged/pointed and inflict some damage through armor). MAgical effects aren't alwyas so clear cut. For exmple...

 

3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

So, now, for example, I was looking at the cockatrice monster. They have it in Classic Fantasy for Mythras, and mmm... reading it now there is a whole paragraph on the topic, basically it takes 2 attacks to inflict petrifying poison. Anyway, at the moment, I am aligning my monster power on Master of Magic primarily so it's a simple petrifying peck. Doesn't really need to bypass AP.

Are you sure? Does the cockatrice just need to make contact or is there something else going on? Does the "peck" have to break skin? And BTW, what does a cockatrice eat, and how? If it tries to peck at a worm in the ground what happens?

3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

But they need to hit. What if someone parries?

Does the parrying weapon turn to stone? 

3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Mmm... I think just answered myself, they just need to overcome the parry. Which can be unambiguously calculated! Yeeha! Although... wait... If it can petrify through armor... perhaps it can probably petrify through shield too... mmm... but perhaps with 1 easier save grade hey?
Thanks for spurring my thoughts...

Yeah, if you start to think about it you have to come up with some idea as to how it petrifies and why it works in one instance and not another. For instance:

If it can petrify through armor, why not through a shield?

If it can petrify through a shield, why not though a door?

And if through a door, why not through a wall?

 

Or maybe the peck is needle like and hits through gaps in the armor and it can't get through parries shields and such (my preference.) Or perhaps in jects some sort of petrifying toxin? 

 

But sometimes if you try to think logically with mythical creatures you get illogical conclusions. Mostly because we think differently than our ancestors did when they dreamt up these things. 

 

3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

In a vaguely related topic, creating your own monsterpedia can be fun (though, ahem, time consuming...) Nothing extraordinary so far, on top of the Master of Magic official zoo, added frostwarg, faes, valkyries, vampires and liches. And also a Succubus equivalent, yeeha. Though strictly speaking they won't be lust demon (because, please, this is just some silly Christian shame porn thing), they will just be master manipulator, and there will be 2 sorts, female Efreet (chaos magic creature with the doomfire!) and female demon-wannabe-lord (death magic creatures with the deathly gaze). I am afraid I won't hellfire in this setting. But chaos' realm doom damage is a good equivalent I reckon.

It can be. But is is useful? 

I mean vast listings of unrelated monsters don't really do much. D&D had to do that due to increasing level and hit points resulting in a need for every increasingly powerful monsters. But BRP and Myhras don't have that problem, and you don't need to reinvent the goblin but with more hit dice every month to challenge your player, and you can get by with a much shorter list of culturally appropriate monsters.

[Lloyd Dupont]

34 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

It can be. But is is useful? 

I mean vast listings of unrelated monsters don't really do much. D&D had to do that due to increasing level and hit points resulting in a need for every increasingly powerful monsters. But BRP and Myhras don't have that problem, and you don't need to reinvent the goblin but with more hit dice every month to challenge your player, and you can get by with a much shorter list of culturally appropriate monsters.

Yes...

Many, if not most MoM creatures were part of some summonable creatures. Found in mananode or in an enemy wizard army.

So, here, my NPC will summon them, I will sprinkle them in nodes, and perhaps, even, the PC themselves will summon them!
It was hard but my very latest iteration of magic upkeep - which includes summon - seems acceptable...
Plus I am more interested in their cool powers than their bag of HP-ability

 

As for my new creatures, it's because I got some idea where to use them already!

At the start of their adventures they will spot some Storm Giants and Frostwargs and... it will be beneficial to them to kill a frostwarg if they can. But foolhardy as well. We'll see.

Later there is a vampire castle!

Faes are Nature's magic patrons, so will be needed in passing

Valkyrie's are sorcery patrons. PC's cultural magic!

I dunno about the lich and "succubus" yet, just some idle thoughts for now...

Edited September 12 by Lloyd Dupont

[Lloyd Dupont]

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I mean vast listings of unrelated monsters don't really do much. D&D had to do that due to increasing level and hit points resulting in a need for every increasingly powerful monsters. But BRP and Myhras don't have that problem, and you don't need to reinvent the goblin but with more hit dice every month to challenge your player, and you can get by with a much shorter list of culturally appropriate monsters

BTW, thanks... I was kind of giving in the temptation to buff up those monsters... You reminded me there is no need! 🙂 
They might be buffed in the Mast of Magic game (compare to mere humans).. but here I only need to make sure the more expensive summons are more interesting than the cheaper ones... no need to make them into big dark souls like monsters. Except for dragons, obviously ^_^

Edited September 13 by Lloyd Dupont

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

BTW, thanks... I was kind of giving in the temptation to buff up those monsters... You reminded me there is no need! 🙂 
They might be buffed in the Mast of Magic game (compare to mere humans).. but here I only need to make sure the more expensive summons are more interesting than the cheaper ones... no need to make them into big dark souls like monsters. Except for dragons, obviously ^_^

Yeah.

A lot of D&D monsters are basically the same only buffed up for higher levels. You generally don't have to do that in skill based games and games where the monsters can improve. Way back at a convention I picked up MERP and some players were surprised by the idea of Thruk the 5th level orc captain, because in AD&D  they have gotten used to the idea of orcs attacking in a horde of 1 hit die monsters. 

 

BTW, Stormbringer/Elric had some stuff for summing, including several sample demons, and generally they were broken down into categories based on their relative power level.  Those built on the same number of points tended to have roughly the same summoning cost, and after a point the variation was more about getting the mix and proportions of abilities (how Strong, fast well armored, amed, regenerating, etc.) right for what you needed. Plus in those games a summon could basically create their own by assigning the stats rather then searching through the planes to find the demon they imagined, more or less. Specfic breeds were night becuase they were more of a known quality. Adptoting that might simplify things for you.

[Atgxtg]

20 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Yes...

Many, if not most MoM creatures were part of some summonable creatures. Found in mananode or in an enemy wizard army.

So, here, my NPC will summon them, I will sprinkle them in nodes, and perhaps, even, the PC themselves will summon them!
It was hard but my very latest iteration of magic upkeep - which includes summon - seems acceptable...

Okay, as long as you got an application for them. A lot of the time GMs spend time creating something they consider cool that the players never bother to use. 

20 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Plus I am more interested in their cool powers than their bag of HP-ability

Yeah, you might want to look at Elric or Strombringer. THey hav rules for designing your own demons which are right up your alley. Generally it's a point build system (it changes somewhat between editions) where every point of attribute or point or die of an aiblity or a power increases the cost of the summoning. If you just want to make up your own demonds and other chaos entities (Strombringer is very loose with the term demon) then you can get endless delight with it.

20 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

As for my new creatures, it's because I got some idea where to use them already!

Good. Then I revoke my objection. 

It's just that sometimes, people being used to other games, start to thinking that quantity is quality and start throwing together pages and pages of ill thought out monsters. Back in my AD&D days we used to joke that all the peasants, lumberjacks, and foresters had to be 20th level just to survive the random wilderness encounters from their daily travels. 

 

[Lloyd Dupont]

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

BTW, Stormbringer/Elric had some stuff for summing, including several sample demons, and generally they were broken down into categories based on their relative power level.  Those built on the same number of points tended to have roughly the same summoning cost, and after a point the variation was more about getting the mix and proportions of abilities (how Strong, fast well armored, amed, regenerating, etc.) right for what you needed. Plus in those games a summon could basically create their own by assigning the stats rather then searching through the planes to find the demon they imagined, more or less. Specfic breeds were night becuase they were more of a known quality. Adptoting that might simplify things for you.

You did bring a good point/

While I was thinking to replicate MoM faithfully as a starting point (as much as it is possible to do so, let's be real, it's not 100% faithful), I am totally onboard evolving the game after that. And this idea.. mmm... I have to think of it.

In the summon cost and principle there is obviously a "kind of monster" aspect... but also, somehow an experience aspect as well, like what is the difference between mere skeleton (lev 1 summon) and deathknight (level 4 summons) if not levelling hey? mmm....

[Atgxtg]

18 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

You did bring a good point/

While I was thinking to replicate MoM faithfully as a starting point (as much as it is possible to do so, let's be real, it's not 100% faithful), I am totally onboard evolving the game after that. And this idea.. mmm... I have to think of it.

Well if you don't have Stormbringer or Elric! the basic concept is pretty simple.

The game changed over time so each edition had different demon creation rules, so without going into specifics:

Each point or die of attribute or special ability had a point cost

In early Stormbringer that cost is limited by the sum of the summoner's attributes, where in latter versions the cost has more to do with the magic points required to summon the demon (and remember to leave enough to bind the demon). There were also certain minimums and restrictions on things, for instance there were minimums set for POW, so that you could not deliberately  summon up a powerful demon that was easy to bind (although it could happen randomly). 

So, essentially, more powerful demons (and the term was used very loosely and applied to just about any chaotic being) would generally only be available to more powerful sorcerers. One of the drawback of this though was that, outside of learning a few spells to help, there wasn't much a sorcerer could do to summon more powerful demons after chargen, since attributes don't change much. 

18 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

In the summon cost and principle there is obviously a "kind of monster" aspect... but also, somehow an experience aspect as well, like what is the difference between mere skeleton (lev 1 summon) and deathknight (level 4 summons) if not levelling hey? mmm....

Raw supernatural power, experience, processing, marketing?

Remember "levelling" is a game term regarding character improvement in the abstract. It doesn't really have any real meaning outside of games, and doesn't mean quite the same thing in every game that uses it.

It was chosen as an easy way to compare relative abilities in an abstract way as the world "level" was generic enough to be applicable to just about any aspect of a game (character experience,  depth of the dungeon delved, magnitude of a spell, etc.). But is just a artificial construct. Just like with military rank. A general isn't necessarily a better fighter than a captain. 

That said, you could certainly use level as a tool to help categorize your summonable creatures. Or some other term such as circle, pit, magnitude, order etc depending on what you are summoning and how.  But remember game terms are game terms. You don't see people telling the clerk they want to level up their value meal, or a DM offering the players the choice of dragons, including the kid's size dragon in a special cardboard box box with toy (limited time offer). 

 

 

 

[Lloyd Dupont]

That said.. While Master if Magic was strong on summoning. It was also a clash of army for world domination.

As an RPG, many summon by PC will be annoying, yet I don't want to get completely away from it, and I want NPC too have them without using (too many?) special rules / exception for NPC...
Just thinking aloud here, don't mind me... just looking at various costing I put in place and wondering what will be... right...

Edited September 15 by Lloyd Dupont

[zifar]

As for the "summon skeleton/death knight" spells on particular, I think they were made summonings only because the limitations of the videogame. Probably if they had less limitations they would have been "animate" spells. So in this particular case I think you can just use mythras raw spell. (which also scales the stength of the skeletons depending on its intensity).

[Lloyd Dupont]

Something was not quite satisfying with the summon costing... but got a better idea while driving to work this morning. Gotta update it all over. again! :P 
(Basically, I realized that Action Points, and armor - which has a non-magic origin - was the biggest differentiator of power and I could probably crunch all the summon cost together and up the cheaper ones quite a bit)

That said I am using my own custom magic system which is... somewhat different of the usual BRP / Mythras system (That's the Mythas Master of Magic download document on this site). For example, none of Mythras sorcery shaping skills, none of BRP Magic intensity. And spell list is mostly a replica of MoM spell (including the 6 realms of powers), with a few personal additions. The few times MoM skill power vary I use a "Magic Strength coefficient" instead of varying cost.

Anyway, the power booklet describes each power quite summarily, the summoning being the most "left to interpretation" (which I am not 100% sure how it goes, and obviously each summon might be somewhat different), but I feel you nailed it, I too think that most undead summoning would, in fact, be "animate" 🙂
Not sure that this fact will remain more than a footnote... but I might mention it as Death summons are generally cheaper. Being undead they can't be healed. That's one limitation. But perhaps one also need fresh or intact corpse/skeleton. Another limitation.

Edited September 16 by Lloyd Dupont

[Atgxtg]

9 hours ago, zifar said:

As for the "summon skeleton/death knight" spells on particular, I think they were made summonings only because the limitations of the videogame. Probably if they had less limitations they would have been "animate" spells. So in this particular case I think you can just use mythras raw spell. (which also scales the stength of the skeletons depending on its intensity).

I was wondering about that.

When I see Summon I think that the spell is bringing something or something here or compelling them to come here via their own power. Which suggest that thes e beings live some sort of life someplace else. So Summon Skeleton makes me think that maybe there is some universe filled with skeletal people.

Or that someone summons some sort of spirit than inhabits a skeleton that they happen to have on hand.

Animate Skeleton makes me think that they are using magical energy to make a skeleton move and follow their commands, and that is it more of a magical machine than an entity.

 

[zifar]

I have been remembering about that game and it has also an "summon hero" spell so all the "special" units were via a "summon X" spell. (the "regular" ones were built in cities like civilization). So I held  that was more a limitation of interface/memory/graphics of the game than a "worldbuilding" issue.

[Lloyd Dupont]

Yes, most likely.
This game had Isekai before it was cool, with the summon hero (from another world?!)

There was a remake in 2022. I have been told it looks more gorgeous, it is quite faithful, but has stupid AI... 

I made 4 summon categories:

- outsiders, constructs, tames and combat summons

Edited September 18 by Lloyd Dupont