Stat This: Howdah Pistol

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Here's one for the Victorian/Gaslight/Steampunk crowd ... its an Army & Navy 16-bore howdah pistol

Gold Medal Concours d'Elegance of Fine Guns - GMC VI Winning Guns there are a few other shots of it on the net but I can't seem to find them today.

16 bore (gauge) equates to .663 inches (caliber) and just for completeness a round ball from that size barrel would weight 438 grains (slightly over 1 ounce or 28.3 grams)

Even loaded with blackpowder it would probably kick like a moose, but gosh, such a pretty piece.

Any idea for stats?

Mark

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Compared to "Call of Cthulhu" or "Delta Green," BRP has a radically simplified system for firearms. For shotguns, you have:

Sporting

Automatic

Double-Barrelled

Sawn-Off

End of list.

In "Delta Green" you get

10 gauge, slug

10-gauge, buckshot

12-gauge slug

12-gauge buckshot

and so on...

In any case, you have what looks like a BRP sawn-off shotgun that does 4D6 damage. If I were to use "Delta Green" rules (page 293 in "Delta Green," by Pagan Publishing, a licensee of "Call of Cthulhu"), I'd suggest 16-gauge slug for 1D10+5 and the same range as a sawed-off shotgun in the BRP rules 5/20/-.

[badcat]

How about, as elephant gun minus a few points for the shorter barrel? 3d6+2, maybe. Range as .45. Or thereabouts.

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The elephant gun is probably a better solution as the Howdah usually had a rifled bore and thus, didn't have a lot in common with a shotgun. Although this particular one is an odd case, Howdah pistols were usually chambered for a round similar, if not identical, to the hunters rifle, which was in the "Big Game" or "Elephant Gun" line of cartridges.

As a side note: I've been doing a lot of research on Victorian era weapons lately and have discovered that; even today; double guns (Rifle or pistol) are extremely labor intensive to build, which makes the very expensive these days ($5,000+US for good ones). The difficulty is in what called barrel regulation; aligning the barrels so that the will converge at the same point of impact at a specific range appropriate to the caliber.

Thought it might be handy data for GMs ... just in case you don't want them having access to "light artillery".

Mark

[soltakss]

Compared to "Call of Cthulhu" or "Delta Green," BRP has a radically simplified system for firearms. For shotguns, you have:

Sporting

Automatic

Double-Barrelled

Sawn-Off

End of list.

In "Delta Green" you get

10 gauge, slug

10-gauge, buckshot

12-gauge slug

12-gauge buckshot

and so on...

Just because it isn't there doesn't mean you can't use it.

I'd say that extensions like slug/buckshot and different gauges are fine and would work well with BRP. Someone just has to collect them together and post/publish them somewhere.

In any case, you have what looks like a BRP sawn-off shotgun that does 4D6 damage. If I were to use "Delta Green" rules (page 293 in "Delta Green," by Pagan Publishing, a licensee of "Call of Cthulhu"), I'd suggest 16-gauge slug for 1D10+5 and the same range as a sawed-off shotgun in the BRP rules 5/20/-.

It does look like a sawn-off shotgun with a pistol grip. But an elephant gun with a pistol grip is sexier.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Strictly using the BRP listings on page 255, I agree that the elephant gun damage would be a logical alternative for finding out how much damage this pretty, but odd, gun could do. Here is how I'd do it on BRP alone if we threw the concept of the sawed-off shotgun with slug out:

A heavy pistol for equivalent accuracy is rated at 20%, but it can't do the same kind of damage as an elephant gun at range despite the rifling. It isn't a rifle when you chop it down that far. In any case, barrel length is not optimum for such a powerful load, rifled or not. You are trading range and power for "convenient" sizing (though I really, really, really question the wisdom of it).

Here is an alternative suggestion without the benefit of anything outside of the BRP rulebook:

Pistol, Heavy (Specialized) Base 20% Range 15 Damage 3D6+2 (as badcat suggests) but a Fumble would trigger

If I were a player and interested in the most bang for my buck, I'd prefer a sawed off shotgun. It does more damage on average and with a far better base chance to hit. After all, this strange gun is a "back-up gun," so you wouldn't need range when Tony the Tiger is right in front of you.

Personally, if I were into killing large game, I'd invest in a standard "Heavy Revolver" as my back-up gun while hunting with an honest-to-gosh elephant gun rifle. Allan Quartermain I am not. :ohwell:

Edited July 23, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth

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Re: Video - Ouch!!! I see why the Howdah pistol went away when smokeless powder came along.

Granted, even with blackpowder the recoil would be serious ... I'm thinking that the size requirement from the Elephant Gun (SIZ 13) should carry over.

Given the choice of become lunch for some African or Asian predator and the potential of being beaten to death by my own weapon ... I'm not Allan Quartermain either, but I'll take the beating. I have doubts that a Webley in .577 Boxer (which was the .44 Magnum of the 1890s and 90s) would reliably stop a 400+ pound Bengal Tiger in mid-attack.

Given the third option of not being there, I'll take #3.

Mark

[badcat]

Not sure about this, but I think I read somewhere that the 'howdah gun' was made for one purpose....to knock a disgruntled tiger off an elephants' back. Hence the name. If you were tiger hunting from elephant back in a howdah, trying to reload as the tiger turned on you and tried to drag you out of the howdah, that had cannon looks like just the thing...

By the way, Michael Douglas in 'The Ghost and the Darkness' carries one.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Not sure about this, but I think I read somewhere that the 'howdah gun' was made for one purpose....to knock a disgruntled tiger off an elephants' back.

A less elegant solution would be to dismount and get to safety and let the elephant keep it busy then shoot it with a more accurate gun from a safe distance.

In the Industrial Revolution, gun manufacturers were trying all kinds of crazy designs and doing their damndest to sell those things to every market they could--including the new class of tourist with a phobia for becoming a tiger treat. (Coinciding with the Imperial Britain's leisure class in the 19th Century taking up big game hunting.)

If I were one of the porters on those safaris, I'd probably be just as scared of the rich, foreign hunter panicking and killing a porter every time the leaves rustled. :eek:

Edited July 24, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth

[badcat]

Yeah, if they had time. Even these days the guys that run safaris in South Africa insist on 'minimum' calibers. Like a minimum .300 Win. Mag. for pot animals such as antelope and like .416 Rigby if you are after a big ticket animal like buffalo or elephant. I don't think they let anybody hunt rhino anymore. You need monstrosities like the howdah gun when you hunt some of the game in Africa and Asia, all you can handle, I guess.

You ever read any Wilber Smith? One of his characters, a safari guide, used a sawed off .600 Nitro Express as his carry gun. To save the tourists from becoming lion bait. That is probably fairly accurate, from much that I have read. What would the stats be on that caliber, you think?

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Check out Chaosium's "Gaslight Equipment Catalogue" by Rod Basler. It lists the .600 N.E. Magnum at 3D6+6. Great book! I don't know the author you wrote about unfortunately. Was he somebody who idealizes your concept of big game hunting in the Gaslight Era?

You think maybe those specialized pistols were manufactured as a sort of vanity piece under the guise of personal protection? I could be totally wrong, been before, but there is something peculiar to me about pounding that much power in a pistol. Then again, I guess neither of us have an idea of what psychology drove these men to hunt dangerous animals. I'm sure the modern experience is probably nothing like what they faced. More regulation, more control, more...modern...a lot less romanticized. Now you've gotten me in the mood to read an old fashioned adventure story!

[Sunwolfe]

A less elegant solution would be to dismount and get to safety and let the elephant keep it busy then shoot it with a more accurate gun from a safe distance.

When it comes to a tiger however, sometimes there just isn't enough time for all that dismounting and accuracy stuff

Whattcha think? Bamboo rods-of-lordly-might?

Slainte'

Sunwolfe

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Actually, I've very little doubt that there was a certain level of vanity associated with the Howdah pistol ... some of the sources I've found cite British army officers carrying them even when a perfectly serviceable (for killing people) revolver was available. So I’m pretty sure there was some mystique or machismo attached to them.

However, those same sources also reference the tendency of early revolvers to become fouled after repeated firings and becoming unreliable until thoroughly cleaned. I’ve seen this happen with replica cap and ball revolvers; 3 shots on a humid Alabama summer day and the cylinder locked up tight. I can imagine very similar results in a South Asian Jungle, so reliability of a simpler action might have been a factor as well.

As far as psychology goes for big game hunting, I’d say part of it is the challenge of taking a large powerful animal as a demonstration of one’s skill in marksmanship. That skill would probably have been very important to Englishmen in the Victorian age … what with all the wars they were fighting … Afghanistan, Sudan, Africa … I’m fairly certain that an English nobleman’s ability to handle a firearm well ranked very high in his list of priorities.

As to lions, tigers and bears (oh my!), the accounts that I’ve read have involved the predator becoming a problem; i.e. attacking/killing people. Granted, I’ve not read exhaustively on the subject, and they might well have been “dressing up” the situation to bolster the ego, and make themselves seen more heroic than otherwise, but it does follow. By way of example, coyote hunting is becoming more popular around here simply because they are beginning to become a problem; killing small livestock, rumored attacks on people and a few (documented) close calls involving children. They might not be on the same level as a tiger, but a small pack coyotes can be pretty dangerous.

My $0.02

Mark

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

When it comes to a tiger however, sometimes there just isn't enough time for all that dismounting and accuracy stuff

Whattcha think? Bamboo rods-of-lordly-might?

Slainte'

Sunwolfe

Well, take your pick, pull out gun on top of a very annoyed elphant with a tiger climbing up its back to get you (or the elephant--if it's anything like most cats it just wants to hang on and see what happens next), and try to shoot with accuracy a large very difficult gun and possibly hitting the elephant too (not a good idea--imagine the chaos then).

I think a cool headed hunter with the choice would prefer the distance and let his porter hand him the backup elephant gun.

Just my two cents. I'm sure sometimes there wasn't time, but I think if given a choice, I'd go with the gun I know I can hit with accurately from a safe place.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Actually, I've very little doubt that there was a certain level of vanity associated with the Howdah pistol

It's funny. I see the same with people and their machines today. Whether they collect guns, classic cars, motorcycles, video game consoles, computer gaming machines (and it's always MEN), they state the BIGGEST, BADDEST, MOST ENVIABLE THING in their posssession.

Maybe it goes back to?, "Me Thog have bigger spear than youze! See it have FLINT on head of spear, not pointy stick! Also have round rocks easy to throw. Shiny rocks with sharp edge!" Jumps up and down and beats on chest.

[badcat]

Yep, vanity was almost certainly a major part of carrying BIG guns. But marksmanship and sheer guts were the most important 'possessions' for big game hunting, and those old guys (before the regulations) have my respect. Consider; big game hunting began in an era when those big guns did not exist...old black powder muskets for elephant, anyone? And one of the most successful elephant hunters...can't remember his name, dang it...shot hundreds of elepants with a 7mm Mauser in the early 1900's and lived to tell the tales. Not to metion the guys with nothing but spears, pits, bows and arrows and blowguns. And balls.

FunGuy, the writer I referred to, Wilbur Smith, is very much in print and if you like adventure stories set in Africa you should check him out. His longest series of connected books follows a family from the 1500's to modern times and the last stories are about one Sean Courtenay, safari guide and ex Selous Scout from Rhodesia. Most of the books are excellent. You get birds eye 'I was there' sorts of stories about things like the Boer War, slavers, pirates, diamond hunters, lost cities, opening up and exploring the interior of Africa, the Zulu Wars, etc., etc. If you have any interest in African history at all these are not to be missed. If you want help on what to begin with I can help, just ask.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Not to metion the guys with nothing but spears, pits, bows and arrows and blowguns. And balls.

Same here brother. One of my favorite stories growing up was the Greek hero Meleager and his hunt for wild boar with a spear! I must've been 8 years old and could see it in my mind's eye. Wonderful, thrilling stuff.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meleager]

[Ars Mysteriorum]

While we're on the topic of phallic contrast/comparison (mine's bigger than yours, and I'll show you just HOW MUCH and WHY!), I figured it would be relevant to bring up the American countryside.

Seriously, go for a drive out in the country. What do you see? Nestled amongst greenery and fertile nature is a bevy of huge, shaft-like buildings topped by a domes that contain stuff necessary for the sustaining of life on earth.

I'll be blunt, silos are like huge penises (in both form and function) looming on the horizon.

Yes, we decorate our country well.

Needless to say, I agree with FunGuy. I daresay we think with certain bits of our anatomy not located atop our shoulders.

Ugh. Now I don't know if I want to smoke a cigar this weekend...

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Okay, now that we've discussed the Freudian aspects of firearms and farming

I picked up the Gaslight Equipment Catalog and I must say I'm impressed and not just with the firearms section. It's mostly correct; there are a few inaccuracies but they are nit-picky things; and complete enough that the pieces that were missed can be easily constructed from what is there.

Thanks for the recommendation.