Vadel, Vadeli, and Brithos (was Fonritian Culture)

[Joerg]

I think we have left the relevance for Fonritian culture, so here's a new thread.

14 hours ago, metcalph said:

No.  The Vadeli are descended from the Viymorni (who apparently lived in Kumanku according to the Middle Sea Empire).  It doesn't have anything do with what Zzabur says but is a matter or record.  

Kumanku lies roughly on the diagonal from the Spike/Magasta's Pool to the southwestern corner of the earth, so yes, this corresponds to the extent of the Vyimorni lands in the Danmalastan mythic cycle.

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You should take care that you are quoting from a section of Revealed Mythologies that is quite old and outdated (and isn't called anything like the Brithos mythic cycle).  It's not canon and was included primarily for the geographical detail.

I used to argue that way, too, but I was told by Jeff that this material still is canonical and true. Malkion Aerlitsson and his marriage to Britha to father the Dronar caste/race still is a mystical truth that could be encountered in Godtime.

Hence my concept of two separate nevertheless true mythical cycles. The Danmalastan cycle does lead into refuge at Brithos, though well past the Storm Age, after the Ice Age, whereas the Malkion Aerlitsson stuff is early Storm or late Golden Age, before the ice came.

 

Note that the geographical detail gives a good position for the Vadeli Isles in relation to Brithos. I am aware that RM offers a map where Vadeli from Endernef move into Enrovalini Zerendel, so they might have occupied those lands during that phase of their conquest of Danmalastan.

I don't think that the island of Brithos that was present until the Closing contained either the Citadel of Thought or the Kadeniti City. It was a highland refuge for the survivors of the Zerendel rout, before Zzabur sent his blast and sunk all the lost lands.

 

There is also another issue - in the Danmalastan cycle, we get a Zzabur who claims to be an Erasanchula. In the Brithos cycle, we encounter Zzabur son of Malkion, or more specifically, son of Malkion the Founder, the epitome of the Malkioni sorcerer/wizard caste.

Zzabur the Erasanchula is a Rune Owner, on par with the Greater Gods (whom he calls False Gods) of Glorantha, if maybe not quite on par with the gods of the Celestial Court (who would be Second Action entities - forms and shapes etc.). The Zzabur rune is not one of the core runes of Glorantha, and Zzabur is notable for using Malkion's Law Rune from among the Core Runes to access his magic.

Zzabur the Wizard Caste ancestor is an aspect of Zzabur, born to Malkion as one of three sons of that wife (according to the Brithos myth, which gives Britha as separate mother of Dronar), or as one of four sons of a single wife. The footnote 3 on p.8 of RM states that these are the peoples' stories, all of them magically true and valid (up to a certain extent of dissection, which is where we are maneuvering here).

The Brithos cycle is relevant because it is the cycle that Froalar and his emigration group and the other groups from the same period carried to Seshnela and Fronela, The Waertagi stories are similar, but stress e.g. the caste-less status of Waertag, a notion that is absent from the Brithos cycle.

 

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In Revealed Mythologies, Greg does not spell out the relationship between the Invisible God, Makan, Irensavel  etc as he's more interested in describing the names for the successive manifestations of the invisible god.  Nevertheless they are all the Invisible God and the Brithini do believe the Invisible God created the world.  

The Invisible God is a catch-phrase including the Brithini concept of (Malkion) the Creator. This doesn't mean that the Brithini use this catch-phrase, or that they agree with it.

The Zzabur text on the Danmalastan cycle has a quite different target audience than the introductory texts of the Guide, and avoids the "aerial view" generalisations that characterize the Guide with its intention as a complete, canonical and universal introductory document, if only at that distant level of generalisation. This implies less well-defined use of catch-phrases, and if these catch-phrases are absent from documents going into deep details, my assumption is that they aren't useful any more at that level of discussion.

 

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For example, the Guide p408

Brithini spokesman; "We acknowledge the Creator, the First Cause. We don't venerate it, and we wouldn't accept it as a god, whether visible or not. Gods are erasanchula who failed ..."

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And the Guide p53

"Zzabur is responsible for shaping the essentials of Western thought" - he set down the logical syntax through which the Brithini and their mortal successors analyze the worlds.

"and determining the way in which Malkion and the Invisible God were originally understood."

Malkion - a devolving entity, shedding aspects of the Absolute while attaining more and more definition. Zzabur the Erasanchula can perceive the First World of unicates, collectively called the Erasanchula, and he can perceive a stage of Malkion causing this, and a stage of Malkion within this framework, more defined than the previous stage. Malkion is the Agent, the Cause, and what happens are the Actions. Malkion in the First Action is the Creator, and becomes something else through the Action. The Zzabur text doesn't name this Creator entity the Invisible God, but Ferbrith, then Kiona, or Sevey.

The Guide is written for people who have not (yet) read stuff like Revealed Mythologies or other deep explorations, even though a considerable portion of the initial buyers had done so before. "The Invisible God" is possibly the least confusing description for a pre-entity not known by that name by the Brithini, or possibly anyone else.

All stages of the Agent causing the Action are Malkion in his devolutions - even the Agent prior to the First Action. Which may mean that Malkion is a word for "The Agent", and his position between the Actions is indicated by epithets like "the Seer" which applies to the Erasanchula stage in the First World, before Danmalastan.

"All Malkioni schools of wizardry are ultimately derived from Zzabur's sorcery."

Which details the hows and whys of the magical domination of the material world.

(Revealed Mythologies does mention the Invisible God. After it first mentions Makan, in connection to Serovos of Jrustela and the revelation of The Abiding Book.)

So: Brithini philosophy is Zzabur's philosophy. It has a world view which is described as Materialist (even though it is mainly obsessed with intellect and energies rather than with matter, unlike the Mostali philosophy) and Humanist - all the Actions are centered on the Agent who doubles as ancestor of the Westerners, and since they are humans, this ancestor is an elevated part of humanity, too.

The First World is a primeval realm of concepts and shapes, aka runes, without duplicates. One description is as an intellectual space of concepts, but that is likely little more than a projection of that realm onto something mortal minds might grasp at.

Danmalastan is the realm of Duplication and Multiplication, and starts out as a philosophical state as well. In the HQ1 canon, this started out as a purely essential realm before colliding with the Theist/Animist complex, whereupon it becomes a place on the earth of Glorantha that interacts with its neighbors. The HQG canon doesn't exactly state whether, when and how the philosophical realm of Duplication and Multiplication and homeland of the Westerners became such.

We learn of the existence of Six Tribes of Danmalastan, among these the Waertagi, one of three tribes moving out of Danmalastan, at least partially. The Waertagi take to the ocean off to the west, the Kachasti enter into Gennerela/Genertela, and one of the Vyimorni, Vadel, enters Bamatela. Tadeniti, Kadeniti and Enrolvalini remain in place in their assigned sixths of their triangular realm, 

 

Now we can map places on the surface of Glorantha's earth (or its sea-bottoms) to locations on Danmalastan. A few of these can be identified on a modern map of Glorantha, like Magnetic Mountain on Curustus in Jrustela, or Mt. Ladaral as the foundation of Sogolotha Mambrola in Fronela. Hence the possibility of identifying at least parts of Kumanku with the fringes of the Vyimorni lands on Danmalastan. There is the possibility of correspondence.

The strange thing about the Vyimorni is that they disappear from the record even before the Golden Age, except for the offspring of Vadel. It is almost as if they are a thought construct to justify their presence in the philosophical realm of Danmalastan.

 

Caste is strangely almost a side-issue in Danmalastan. The Six (minus one) Tribes are way more prominent in defining the proto-Brithini activities (or lack thereof).

The tribes start of as six Green Age to Golden Age defining activities: Writing (Tadeniti), (planned) Building (Kadeniti), Reasoning (Enrolvalini, and huh?), Sailing (Waertagi), Speaking (Kachasti) and Discovering (Vyimorni). Like everyone else, their archetypal ancestor each is named a son of Malkion, only to be forgotten among his folk, with the sole exception of Waertag. (Some Real World Gloranthan scholars have their suspicions about the Speaking and Writing founders...)

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(RM p.9)

Talar, Zzabur's "brother," was given command of one segment of the world. Zzabur chose to live there, close to his Creator.

The first of any caste-defining names (other than Zzabur) mentioned in the text. And note how carefully Zzabur places himself outside of that command.

The caste definitions follow a page later, only in the Kadeniti context, past the founding of the Land of Logic and giving command over it to Talar. There is no indication that this concept applies to the other tribes in the same way at this point, and the Guide gets explicit that Waertag never was affected by this even though he did spend some time in the Kadeniti city (verbatim: "at the courts of Danmalastan").

Horal appears outside of the presentation of the Kadeniti castes as defender against the Mostali retribution against theft of the Energy Prison, who pushed the mostali forces (which may have consisted of mostali constructs rather than actual mostali - they sound like the very definition of gremlins and gobblers) back into Mostal's Mountain.

Only on p.15 - well into the Storm Age - we learn of three of the castes among the Kachasti, in the Vadeli war. In fact, we never learn whether the Tadeniti had castes, or whether the Enrovalini were subject to castes. From their tribal description, they all would have been philosophers, hence treading zzaburi territory.

 

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That's rather weak evidence to assert Vadel's actions were Golden Age.  Vadel's sea crossing antics may have been omitted because they were not important to the myth.

Or both Vadel's and the Kachasti expeditions predated most of Zzabur's wars.

The Kachasti Speaking Tour leaving Danmalastan for Gennerela is mentioned for the Golden Age activities of the Six Tribes. Do you have any reason to assume that the expedition of the hypothetical Vadel the Vyimorni into Bamatela was significantly later, after the war of the Directional Lords aka First Rebellion?

 

p.11 - Vadel Fights Bamat - holds quite a few gems, like e.g. the mindless victims of the Energy Complex encounter which staggered away all across the world, spreading terror. (Reads like a good fit for YarGan...)

In his fight with Bamat, Vadel still acts as the long arm of Zzabur - he receives the Energy Prison copy of the Mostali device through Zzabur's intervention, and this device became his main weapon in this prolonged conflict.

One might say that Maseren Vadel in this myth is but an aspect of the Paseren Zzabur dealing with the southern Directional Lord in the course of the Early Rebellion. 

 

Who exactly put an end to the Vadeli lording over Chir (equated with Fonrit) and Poto (possibly the Tarien side of the Nargan Sea)? Poto is sufficiently far south that the sky spill may have burnt it away. The fact that the Dawn Age population of former Chir were the Blues makes it likely that the Veldang somehow overcame whichever Vadeli presence might have been left, possibly with help from allied Chaos powers.

 

 

 

 

[Pentallion]

More please.

 

I've long wanted to run a Vadeli Explores the World campaign with sorcerors and see how long it takes my players to pick up on that they're still in Glorantha, in the God Time campaign.

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I used to argue that way, too, but I was told by Jeff that this material still is canonical and true. Malkion Aerlitsson and his marriage to Britha to father the Dronar caste/race still is a mystical truth that could be encountered in Godtime.

I have little time for appeals to authority which do not make it clear what is being talked about.  Your original claim is that the Vadeli originally came from Brithos in the Golden Age and cited this supposed Brithos Mythic Cycle as evidence (Revealed Mythologies p25).  There are a number of problems.

It does not mention the Golden Age.

It does not mention the Yellow Vadeli (who are known from the Guide p527)

The very mention of Aerlit Kolate suggests that this is a Storm Age tale.

The text has the Blue Vadeli surviving in Dora's Hills in what later became the Vadeli Isles whereas the Blues were exterminated in the Gods War and the Vadeli Isles is home to the Brown Vadeli.

Brithos is not known mythically until the late Storm Age (Guide p690 and map p691) where the Vadeli first are seen in Umathela in the early Storm Age.

A better explanation for the Vadeli predecessors on Brithos would be:  Brithos was originally a Kachasti Island.  After the Kachasti defeated the Vadeli in the Kachasti War, they resettled many Vadeli here (Revealed Mythologies p15 and text for Kachisti in Guide p688-689).  The Vadeli soon revolted and killed their Kachasti wardens.  Thereafter Brithos became a Vadeli Island.  So far this is the Middle Storm Age.   Then came the fall of Zerendel in the Double Belligerent Assault (Guide p693, Revealed Mythologies p29) in the Lesser Darkness leading to the survivors conquering Brithos.  

Hence I find your suggestion of two contradictory mythical cycles to be unnecessary.  There is no contradiction in the material and the God Learners did not see one as well.

 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is also another issue - in the Danmalastan cycle, we get a Zzabur who claims to be an Erasanchula. In the Brithos cycle, we encounter Zzabur son of Malkion, or more specifically, son of Malkion the Founder, the epitome of the Malkioni sorcerer/wizard caste.

Rather than make up vivid names for the sources such as "Danmalastan cycle", why not say "Zzabur Says" and point out where it might be found (ie Revealed Mythologies p4)?   Moreover Zzabur is described as the son of Malkion the *Father* in the section Brithos in History (Revealed Mythologies p25)

As for your actual point, I'm not seeing the supposed contradiction.  As an Ersasanchula, Zzabur's father would have been the Invisible God and he would have known Malkion in the Golden Age with his revelation of the Invisible God.  Since the Seshnegi and other people believe that Malkion is the Invisible God within the World, it follows that Malkion is his father.  Their confusion on the topic is not Zzabur's problem and it doesn't require two distinct and contradictory mythic cycles explained at length to resolve.

 

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

The strange thing about the Vyimorni is that they disappear from the record even before the Golden Age, except for the offspring of Vadel. It is almost as if they are a thought construct to justify their presence in the philosophical realm of Danmalastan.

There's no real mystery here:

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The Viymorni tribe ceased to exist when the
whole world had been explored. The Vadeli led them,
instead, upon exploration of realms forbidden by Malkion.

Revealed Mythologies p15

 

[metcalph]

Doubled post deleted.  Originally it was a longer version of the post that follows but I pressed the wrong button somehow and the older text came up.

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by metcalph

[metcalph]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Caste is strangely almost a side-issue in Danmalastan. The Six (minus one) Tribes are way more prominent in defining the proto-Brithini activities (or lack thereof).

Perhaps Caste Law was developed in the Republic of Zerendel.  In Danmalastan, everybody knew innately what was expected of them in life and they all worked for the Good. But in Zerendel, such things had become unclear or forgotten and accordingly people required injunctions and commands to know what was required of them.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

I have little time for appeals to authority which do not make it clear what is being talked about.  

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Your original claim is that the Vadeli originally came from Brithos in the Golden Age 

I made two separate claims.

One claim: in the Danmalastan cycle, the journey of Vadel would have fallen into the same Age as the Speaking Tour of the Kachasti or the adoption of castes by the Kadeniti.

The other claim has the Vadeli as the children of Vadela, who is identified on p.528 as a goddess married by Vimorn. Vadel thus was a demigod - much like Ylream, the first Serpent King.

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

and cited this supposed Brithos Mythic Cycle as evidence (Revealed Mythologies p25).  There are a number of problems.

It does not mention the Golden Age.

It does not mention the Yellow Vadeli (who are known from the Guide p527)

The very mention of Aerlit Kolate suggests that this is a Storm Age tale.

Depends on how you define Golden Age, Storm Age, and their overlap.

The Birth of Umath did not end the Golden Age - the slaying of the Emperor did.

The Birth of Umath did start the Storm Age, which had the Vadrudi "wife-takings" of which Aerlit's marriage to Warera is an example of consensual congress after a stormy start.

Finally, I stress the fact that the Vadeli are pre-existing in Brithos when Aerlitsson arrives, autochthonous population. Much like the Likiti in Seshnela. While the arrival of Aerlitsson clearly is Storm Age as per the definition of my previous paragraph, it probably also is Golden Age as per the definition before that.

 

RM states that the abode of the Blue Vadeli atop Dora's Hills  became the Vadeli Isles. (RM p.25)

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

The text has the Blue Vadeli surviving in Dora's Hills in what later became the Vadeli Isles whereas the Blues were exterminated in the Gods War and the Vadeli Isles is home to the Brown Vadeli.

The text states that before the Great Darkness the Blue Vadeli were exterminated except for a few survivors on Dora's Hills. The war went on:

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This was shortly before the Great Darkness, which brought further decimation of the Vadeli and the death of the Brithini king,

The death of the Brithini King would have been what made Froalar and his followers emigrate to Frowal, leaving his brother Hoalar to rule Brithos uncontested.

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Brithos is not known mythically until the late Storm Age (Guide p690 and map p691) where the Vadeli first are seen in Umathela in the early Storm Age.

What exactly defines Brithos? The land goddess Britha. Nothing in the definition requires Brithos to be an island. (Unlike Thinobutu, which started out as an island in a region that was mythically all dry land before the children of Sshorg attacked.)

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

A better explanation for the Vadeli predecessors on Brithos would be:  Brithos was originally a Kachasti Island.  

I could agree with this. Kachasti and/or Enrovalini.

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

After the Kachasti defeated the Vadeli in the Kachasti War, they resettled many Vadeli here (Revealed Mythologies p15 and text for Kachisti in Guide p688-689).  The Vadeli soon revolted and killed their Kachasti wardens.  

Thereafter Brithos became a Vadeli Island.  So far this is the Middle Storm Age.   Then came the fall of Zerendel in the Double Belligerent Assault (Guide p693, Revealed Mythologies p29) in the Lesser Darkness leading to the survivors conquering Brithos.  

Hence I find your suggestion of two contradictory mythical cycles to be unnecessary.  There is no contradiction in the material and the God Learners did not see one as well.

The God Learners had a third text as their truth, the Abiding Book, which also recounts these events. It specifically mentions the Enrovalini as the folk living with Zzabur.

Note that the Malkioni are not the descendants of the people who followed Malkion on his Expulsion Walk - all Dawn Age Malkioni settlements are exiles of Zzabur's Brithos. With the possible exception of the Ingareens, who may have been followers of Malkion who lost faith when Malkion faced Death.

However, the Danmalastan cycle (RM p.14) states that the masses of peoples were all changed, and divided into two monster armies. Only the Brithini lands were spared.

I see three separate texts - one with Zzabur the Erasanchula as the mastermind (the Danmalastan cycle), one with Zzabur the son of Malkion the Founder as a major agent, but not acting independently from the Brithini King (the Brithos cycle), and the Abiding Book with its own text how Malkion created the world, with Makanism firmly entrenched.

The texts have different temporal focus and scope - I think we are in agreement there.

The Danmalastan cycle stays silent about goddesses like Britha or Vadela. A major difference IMO.

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Rather than make up vivid names for the sources such as "Danmalastan cycle", why not say "Zzabur Says" and point out where it might be found (ie Revealed Mythologies p4)?  

Once cycle has Danmalastan as its setting, the other Brithos. Zzabur speaks way too much in either cycle.

The Brithos stuff has all the henotheist mixing and mingling with goddesses that the Danmalastan Zzabur Says ignores.

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Moreover Zzabur is described as the son of Malkion the *Father* in the section Brithos in History (Revealed Mythologies p25)

That's referring to the "Father of the Castes" myth, which exists in a number of versions.

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

As for your actual point, I'm not seeing the supposed contradiction.  As an Ersasanchula, Zzabur's father would have been the Invisible God and he would have known Malkion in the Golden Age with his revelation of the Invisible God.  Since the Seshnegi and other people believe that Malkion is the Invisible God within the World, it follows that Malkion is his father.  Their confusion on the topic is not Zzabur's problem and it doesn't require two distinct and contradictory mythic cycles explained at length to resolve.

Zzabur says places Zzabur way above the progenitors of the other castes, claiming Malkion of the Second Action as his progenitor, Malkion of Third action as his brother, and Malkion of the Fourth Action as his nephew.

While Zzabur is the only one of the four caste archetypes still alive at the Dawn, they (like Froalar's father, Talar) are regarded as the same generation, and the Zzabur encountered by Hrestol is expected to heed the decisions of the ruling Talar of Brithos.

Zzabur Says doesn't indicate even a single consultation with others. In other words, post-Dawn Zzabur of Brithos is a mere shadow of the Mary Sue of Zzabur Says.

 

 

 

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

Perhaps Caste Law was developed in the Republic of Zerendel.  In Danmalastan, everybody knew innately what was expected of them in life and they all worked for the Good. But in Zerendel, such things had become unclear or forgotten and accordingly people required injunctions and commands to know what was required of them.

From the look of the Kadeniti section on the activities of the six tribes/founders, the problem arose when the city required an ordered society rather than freeform cooperation of the brothers of the tribes.

For some reason tied to the strangeness that is the Menena caste and the Brithos cycle, I don't see an equal proportion of males and females in these original inhabitants of the Kingdom of Logic. According to the Brithos document, goddesses of the land or other features stand in as eligible mates.

 

13 hours ago, metcalph said:

It does not mention the Yellow Vadeli (who are known from the Guide p527)

They inhabited only the capital of the Vadeli over-nation, so it could be argued they didn't form a nation in themselves.

It is somewhat interesting that the Vadeli are segregated in nations rather than castes in the Brithos text.

[metcalph]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

I made two separate claims.

One claim: in the Danmalastan cycle, the journey of Vadel would have fallen into the same Age as the Speaking Tour of the Kachasti or the adoption of castes by the Kadeniti.

The other claim has the Vadeli as the children of Vadela, who is identified on p.528 as a goddess married by Vimorn. Vadel thus was a demigod - much like Ylream, the first Serpent King.

No, you claimed there were two distinct and contradictory mythologies based on the supposed canon status of three paragraphs of archaic text in Revealed Mythologies.  That requires considerably more evidence and reasoining than what you have said so far.

That the Vadeli of the Vadeli Isles believe they are autochthonous to the Vadeli Isles is interesting but ultimately on par with the Grazers believing they were descended from Centaurs.  The Vadeli Islanders are the survivors of Zzabur's great curse and subsequent disaster; hence they wouldn't be expected to have a detailed understanding of what they did in the Bad Old Days.  Dara Happa came out of the Great Darkness far better than the Vadeli did yet they weren't aware of the Anaxial Dynasty until Khormesha the Sage put it together at least a century after the Dawn (Fortunate Succession p39)

Secondly Vadel's journey to the Pamaltela is the origin of Death in Malkioni mythology.  That places his actions within the Storm Age rather than the Late Golden Age whereas the Naming (that sparked this of) is Green Age/Golden Age. 

I'm not seeing the big deal about Vadel being a demigod.  Malkion is a God, Zzabur is a God, Vadel is a Demigod and so are Horal, Talar and Dronar.  Waertag probably is a God.  It's no longer the case where being a god or half of one is a clear sign of theism and unmalkioni behaviour.  What is forbidden in Malkion eyes is being sacrificed to.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Depends on how you define Golden Age, Storm Age, and their overlap.

I'm using the definitions presented in the Guide: Appendix E.  

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Finally, I stress the fact that the Vadeli are pre-existing in Brithos when Aerlitsson arrives, autochthonous population. Much like the Likiti in Seshnela. While the arrival of Aerlitsson clearly is Storm Age as per the definition of my previous paragraph, it probably also is Golden Age as per the definition before that.

One, Aerlitsson is not mentioned in the text that you mention.  There is an "Malkion, also called Engr" but he is not described as setting foot on Brithos only that his children fought for possession of the land.  Looking at the Guide's mention of Mount Aerlit p417, I'd say Engr ruled a Kachasti culture in Seshnela and became mythically identified as Malkion (General rule: Big Name followed by a Strange Name means that the Strange Name was the original form followed by the Big Name.  Example: Uleria replaced Kassa in Pelanda)

 

Secondly what you stress is not a fact but your interpretation.  I don't believe the Vadeli are Autochthonous and I don't believe Aerlit is Late Golden Age.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

The text states that before the Great Darkness the Blue Vadeli were exterminated except for a few survivors on Dora's Hills. The war went on:

Incorrect, the relevant section is:

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Upon a series of wives [Engr] begot numerous
children, who later fought with the Vadeli for possession of
the land before the Great Dawning. These battles
culminated in the sinking of the southern portions of the
land, drowning nearly all of the Red Vadeli, and leaving only
a small part of the Blue Vadeli alive among the tops of
Dora’s Hills, which later became known as the Vadeli Isles.

"Before the Great Dawning", "Cumulated" means these were the end results of the Vadeli/Brithini Wars.  Ergo the Blue Vadeli inhabited the Vadeli Isles as a result of these wars whereas we know they are actually Brown.

What was described as taking place before the Great Darkness was the withdrawal of the Brown Vadeli to the hills and forests in the north (whereas the Hills of Dora were in the now flooded south).  That the chronology of the text is choppy, I agree, but this is an early and outdated text and Greg's written worse howlers.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Note that the Malkioni are not the descendants of the people who followed Malkion on his Expulsion Walk - all Dawn Age Malkioni settlements are exiles of Zzabur's Brithos.

I disagree.  Slontos and God Forgot are the descendants of the people on the Expulsion Walk considering both places lay on the shores of the Faralinthor Sea in the middle Storm Age and New Malkonwall lay at the western end.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

However, the Danmalastan cycle (RM p.14) states that the masses of peoples were all changed, and divided into two monster armies. Only the Brithini lands were spared.

The text is titled Malkion the Sacrifice, not the Danmalastan Cycle.  The masses of the people refers to the people who were present when Malkion tried to summon the Fifth Action.  This is the Destruction of the Spike.  That the people changed there into horrible chaos demons does not mean that all Malkioni everywhere outside Brithini lands were likewise destroyed (and even if it did, one could dismiss it as Brithini bombast and hyperbole).

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

I see three separate texts - one with Zzabur the Erasanchula as the mastermind (the Danmalastan cycle), one with Zzabur the son of Malkion the Founder as a major agent, but not acting independently from the Brithini King (the Brithos cycle), and the Abiding Book with its own text how Malkion created the world, with Makanism firmly entrenched

I am really not interested in debating a nascent theory which I think is unnecessary (the existing source material does not have the contradictions you think it does) and wrong (Zzabur and everybody else having two distinct and contradictory mythical histories is simply not Glorantha).  My position is that all the texts can be woven into one coherent mythology and the events placed within the scheme of the Guide: Appendix E.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Danmalastan cycle stays silent about goddesses like Britha or Vadela. A major difference IMO.

The Wars of Low Magic p12.  The Five Secret Assassins (Uleria). The Ill-Intentioned Goddess (Britha)

 

 

[metcalph]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

From the look of the Kadeniti section on the activities of the six tribes/founders, the problem arose when the city required an ordered society rather than freeform cooperation of the brothers of the tribes.

They *had* an ordered society in the Golden Age.  It wouldn't be the Land of Logic if it was just freeform co-operation.  

 

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

For some reason tied to the strangeness that is the Menena caste and the Brithos cycle, I don't see an equal proportion of males and females in these original inhabitants of the Kingdom of Logic. According to the Brithos document, goddesses of the land or other features stand in as eligible mates.

All that is said is about Engr's mates is "on a series of wives" (RM p25).  No mention of Goddesses.  

[Pentallion]

This has all made me have an epiphany about the Vadelans.  Zzabur was an asshat who broke the World Machine (see: opinion of the dwarves who incidentally are always seeming to ally with the Vadeli).  Vadel was the good guy who took his tribe beyond Glorantha, saving them from the evil Zzabur.  In the future, they return, are seen as Chaos, but in reality they are going to destroy glorantha, in order to end the 6th age and in the process create the 7th age, which is repaired from the hubris and damage of Zzabur (see rise of the White Moon and read end of King of Sartar).  Hence, Chaos are the good guys and so are the Vadeli.

I'm going off to get some popcorn now

When I get back I will start on my Vadel campaign   Imagine my players going from "wait, this game is in Glorantha afterall to wait, WE are the Chaos invading the world?"  A story of hubris, falling from grace and redemption.

Please continue.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Pentallion