Who was Arkillia?

[Grievous]

This is inspired partly by the information on Nochet's queens by Jeff Richard and the musing of Joerg Baumgartner's on G+.

The question is who exactly was Arkillia and whether the information on Nochet's queens can help us answer this question.

The canon knowledge concerning this affair is as follows:

Quote

 

The Tragedy of Sarotar and Arkilia

Sarotar was the eldest son of Prince Saronil and considered by all to be the best of the House of Sartar. He fell in love with Arkilia, an Esrolian noblewoman, and his love was returned. However, Arkilia’s Grandmother had ambitions of making her Queen of Nochet and had arranged for her to marry a powerful man of another Esrolian house. Sarotar rescued Arkilia from Nochet and returned with her to Boldhome.

Furious, the Grandmother arranged for Arkilia’s dejected lovers to murder Sarotar with the aid of traitors. The assassins murdered Sarotar, but his kinsman Dorasor avenged him. Many believe that Sarotar’s assassination was the beginning of the doom of the House of Sartar and his half-brother High King Tarkalor always maintained that Sarotar would have been a far greater king than he.

Sarotar is remembered in the poem of the Lovers of Boldhome:

King Sartar the Great, who courted the Horse Queen and won her Love; Prince Saronil the Bridgemaker, who loved his doomed Runaway Woman; King Tarkalor, who left his land for a year to win the Feathered Queen. But none loved so great as Sarotar, who gave his life for Arkillia.

 

and

Quote

 

The Tragic Prince and the Sad Lady

This famed ballad about Sarotar son of Saronil and his love Arkillia, an Esrolian noblewoman, describes events circa 1540 to 1546. Conflicting vows of love and duty led to Sarotar’s murder by Arkillia’s other suitors. The ballad is sometimes combined with either the mournful Song of Marlesta the Dancer, the daughter of tragic couple, or with the Song of Vengeance, which details the bloody vengeance taken by Sarotar’s brother and cousin upon his murderers.

The story is also a popular play in the Holy Country, and contrasts the fierce loyalty of the Sartarites with the manipulative schemes of the Esrolians. In all versions, Arkillia is portrayed as the tragic victim of events.

 

and

Quote

In 1546 Sarotar, the eldest son of Saronil, died a tragic death which was later immortalized in a Kethaelan play. Sarotar loved the woman Arkillia, a merchant’s daughter called “the Sad Lady” in the play. Sarotar died for her love, they say, but his daughter Marlesta the Dancer, later renounced his ways, denied her heritage, and joined the Puppeteer Troup

So, those are the established facts (in the sense that they known about, not necessarily that they are true).

When Sarotar died in 1546, Esrolia/Nochet was embroiled in some rather big changes. Reverend Grandmother Bruvala had died and her daughter - queen Brengala - had retired, taking her mother's place. She in turn had placed her daughter Norina on the throne, who would in 1551 be killed by Sartarite assassins in retaliation for the killing of Sarotar. Though these are fundamentally large changes, House Norinel's hold on power seems strong.

So, who was Arkillia, a woman whose Grandmother supposedly had ambitions of placing her on the throne?

I think three main scenarios present themselves as likely.

1) Bruvala or Brengala (I think it might be safe to assume that Brengala was mostly calling the shots at the late stage of Bruvala's life during which Sarotar and Arkillia had their affair) intended Arkillia to take the throne, not Norina. This would very likely mean that Arkillia is a granddaughter of Bruvala, perhaps even the elder sister of Norina. However, this scenario leaves open the question that why did Arkillia not actually end up becoming queen? Maybe the Sarotar affair sullied her chances, but somehow that doesn't feel right.

2) Arkillia was daughter of one of Bruvala's sons, thus born into another house. In this case the scheming Grandmother would be from that house (perhaps Delaeos, which ends up taking the throne in '51 after one of their number becomes Belintar).

This does raise a few interesting questions, though. Why did Sartar's assassins kill Norina in retaliation? One would think their ire would be directed solely at this other house. Secondly, is it even realistic to assume anyone could break the Bruvala/Brengala/Norina (ie. House Norinel) axis? They seem pretty solidly in power at this stage (and indeed it seems that it takes a Belintar to momentarily break their power).

A potential answer to these questions is that perhaps an Arkilia-Sarotar match represented a serious threat to the throne (an outsider with an army sounds dangerous and could be the leverage that could break Norinel's hegemony). This would be a slight twist to the known facts. Maybe the Grandmother of the rival house was actually in favor of the marriage and the rival suitors were supported or forwarded by House Norinel in an effort to quell the situation.

3) The third option is that Arkillia is Queen Bruva's daughter and thus she was the daughter of a traitor and would-be usurper. However, again we are faced with contradictory facts. Why is it said her Grandmother wanted her to become a queen? Why would a possibly secret heir or at least a woman with questionable heritage have a host of suitors? And again, why would Sartar's assassins kill queen Norina in retaliation for this affair?

To possibly answer those questions, let's consider that she was raised by her father, who would probably have to have gone back to her original family to protect himself and the life of the child. Alternatively, he could have remarried an ambitious house willing to take on the burden for the chance of raising a queen. This would setup a rival dynasty to House Norinel. Whence the host of suitors? Well, the Grandmother of this rival house would be looking for some powerful allies to help her gain the throne. In this case, Sarotar's entry and love for Arkillia mixes things up (though in this case the Grandmother would have no appreciation of Sarotar's potential in helping win the throne). Why queen Norina dies in retaliation remains a question, though.

4) Arkillia was not related to Bruvala at all. In this case, anything is possible really. However, this doesn't feel like the right direction to go in my opinion, considering what we know and what happened.

So, those are the scenarios I'm proposing. Personally, I like #2 or #3 best as the most interesting alternatives. It also occurs to me that we do not really know what happened to Arkillia herself. Let me know what you think!

[jajagappa]

22 minutes ago, Grievous said:

House Norinel's hold on power seems strong

More like the hold of Great Queen Bruvala's descendants to power is strong.  Every queen of Nochet (including those of House Delainaeo and Delaeos, e.g. Samastina) since her reign descends from her.  The Enfranchised Houses all intermarry closely, so the cross-connections are many.  But up until Queen Norina, House Norinel clearly has the dominant position.

We also have to look at who came to power in 1550-1.  Imarjira of House Delaeos, whose grandfather was one of Great Queen Bruvala's sons.  And her brother won the Tournament of Luck and Death in 1550 to become Belintar.  They directly benefit from Norina's assassination, and House Delaeos has close links to the Old Vingkotling kings (i.e. to the Heortlings).

33 minutes ago, Grievous said:

4) Arkillia was not related to Bruvala at all. In this case, anything is possible really. However, this doesn't feel like the right direction to go in my opinion

Agree, I think this unlikely.

34 minutes ago, Grievous said:

perhaps even the elder sister of Norina

The timing doesn't work for this - they'd have to be twins.  Brengala is Bruvala's youngest/last child born in 1509.  Norina is born in 1525, when Brengala is 16.  Unlikely to have been initiated before age 14, married at 15.

36 minutes ago, Grievous said:

1) Bruvala or Brengala (I think it might be safe to assume that Brengala was mostly calling the shots at the late stage of Bruvala's life

I don't think it's safe to assume that at all.  Bruvala was the greatest queen in Nochet since the Dawn.  Magically powerful, she dominates Nochet until her death.  Brengala may certainly have found ways to maneuver things towards her own daughter's rise to become queen (and position herself to succeed Bruvala), but the fact that House Delaeos gets Imarjira in as queen and she lasts there until 1565 suggests that Brengala was not as strong as Bruvala.

41 minutes ago, Grievous said:

intended Arkillia to take the throne, not Norina

I don't have the feeling that either Bruvala or Brengala intended this. 

43 minutes ago, Grievous said:

3) The third option is that Arkillia is Queen Bruva's daughter and thus she was the daughter of a traitor and would-be usurper. However, again we are faced with contradictory facts. Why is it said her Grandmother wanted her to become a queen? Why would a possibly secret heir or at least a woman with questionable heritage have a host of suitors? And again, why would Sartar's assassins kill queen Norina in retaliation for this affair?

This was one of the lines I thought most likely and what I speculated:

> Arkillia as the last daughter of Queen Bruva, Brengala's elder sister, and Aririllo Delainaeo, High Priest of Jeweled Issaries (many of the noble sons go into the temples of Issaries or Lhankor Mhy after all).  Arkillia born in 1524-5, Bruva's last child.  When Bruva tries to force Reverend Grandmother Bruvala out, she is killed.  Arkillia is raised by her aunt Queen Brengala, and is playmate to Brengala's own daughter Norina.  Arkillia is of course tainted so is meant to be married off in some minor alliance (not the Prince of Sartar).  But when Sarotar falls in love with her, and not Norina...

In this scenario, it would likely be those associated with Brengala who have Sarotar killed (or a final act of vengeance by Queen Bruvala herself!).  And then the assassination of Norina by Sartarites in response makes sense.

48 minutes ago, Grievous said:

2) Arkillia was daughter of one of Bruvala's sons, thus born into another house. In this case the scheming Grandmother would be from that house (perhaps Delaeos, which ends up taking the throne in '51 after one of their number becomes Belintar).

I'd guess not Delaeos.  Arkillia is also noted as a "merchant's daughter", i.e. associated with Issaries.  This is most prominently House Delainaeo, from whom Dormal comes, and a couple other more minor houses.

> Merchant's daughter may mean she was a Norinel daughter of another of Queen Brengala's sisters, (I suggest one named Brankillia), and one of the main Issaries priests (likely from House Delainaeo).

It's not far different from the scenario for #3, just pushes Arkillia out a bit farther from the center of power.  But as you note now there is another House involved which would fit with having another Grandmother involved.  Perhaps Arkillia was meant to marry Belintar and be the Mother of Dormal???  But this arrangement disrupted the plans and postponed events for another generation.

[Joerg]

I have decided for my scenario "Norinevra's Homecoming" (the first half of which about to see publication in the German HQ scenario collection) that Arkilia is a granddaughter of Bruvala born into House Norinel, that means through maternal lineage.

Sister or cousin of Norina doesn't really matter much to the Grandmother.

The problem with Sarotar as suitor is that the memory of the Adjustment Wars is looming big in the minds of the Grandmothers, and there is no way that the proud upstart House of Sartar is delivering its designated heir as an under-husband to House Norinel, especially at a time when Nochet was only the second or third most important city in Esrolia, after Ezel and Rhigos.

So, to me (and my story) #2 is a no-go, my story and IMO also to the victim count in the assassination war with the Sartarite royals. #3 is my preferred version of the choices you provide.

But I am biased in this.

[jajagappa]

31 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The problem with Sarotar as suitor is that the memory of the Adjustment Wars is looming big in the minds of the Grandmothers, and there is no way that the proud upstart House of Sartar is delivering its designated heir as an under-husband to House Norinel, especially at a time when Nochet was only the second or third most important city in Esrolia, after Ezel and Rhigos.

And House Norinel seems to have a real antipathy towards Heortlings on the whole, so I agree that this is an important consideration.

And the "proud upstart House of Sartar" probably doesn't like Sartar's fling here either - an under-husband to a Nochetite is probably not the Sartarite preference.

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

#3 is my preferred version of the choices you provide.

It's mine as well.

[Grievous]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

I have decided for my scenario "Norinevra's Homecoming" (the first half of which about to see publication in the German HQ scenario collection) that Arkilia is a granddaughter of Bruvala born into House Norinel, that means through maternal lineage.

The only thing about that is that it doesn't jive with the idea that Arkillia's Grandmother wanted her to become Queen. Of course, that can be just "fake news", but it feels like an odd piece of the puzzle to be just rumors.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

The only thing about that is that it doesn't jive with the idea that Arkillia's Grandmother wanted her to become Queen. Of course, that can be just "fake news", but it feels like an odd piece of the puzzle to be just rumors.

Where is your first "canonical" quote from? The latter two are from King of Sartar - Zin Letters and CHDP Sartar section.

Arkillia survives all of this drama, although she loses control over her daughter Marlesta. There are few reasons why she would not be available as a Norinel queen, although I don't quite see how Bruvala could hope to live long enough to see her youngest daughter pass the menopause and retire from queenhood, and then still have a say when nominating the next queen. Did Bruvala expect that she had to dethrone her youngest daughter as well? In that case, Brengala would have had an active interest in making Arkillia uneligible.

 

[7Tigers]

21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Where is your first "canonical" quote from?

 

Looks like it is from Sartar: KoH, page 224, bottom left.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Arkillia survives all of this drama, although she loses control over her daughter Marlesta. There are few reasons why she would not be available as a Norinel queen, although I don't quite see how Bruvala could hope to live long enough to see her youngest daughter pass the menopause and retire from queenhood

Given that Bruvala got rid of two daughters (Bruvalaina and Bruva), there's no reason she wouldn't try to force Brengala out too in favor of a younger and manipulable successor.  If Bruvala decided that Brengala was working to oust herself as Reverend Grandmother, then going back to Bruva's offspring (where Bruva is dead) to find a compliant Queen would make sense.

The timing is perhaps a shade off though with Bruvala dying in 1545 and Sarotar not until 1546.  Bruvala would have had to put the effort into motion before her death, which seems unlikely.

However, there's always a 2nd Grandmother.  We don't know who Bruva married, or which House they were connected to.  And with Bruva's murder, that House would have found itself on the outs with Bruvala (and likely Brengala).  Arkillia stays in the palace, but Grandmother #2 works hard to keep a connection there, and perhaps has in mind a marriage between Arkillia and another branch of her House to restore position (and more if Arkillia becomes Queen).  So Arkillia's turn to Sarotar throws that out the window.  With Bruvala dead, Brengala and Norina new to their positions, Grandmother #2 strikes at Sarotar to remove him and get Arkillia repositioned as possible heir to become Queen.  This puts Grandmother #2's House into conflict with House of Sartar.

So, who is on the out and trying to regain power?

1) House Oranaeo.  They held Queenship from 1430-1460, as well as holding the Governor of Heortland position.  But their internal feuds resulted in the Barren Year of 1460, from which Bruvala emerged.  Not sure Bruvala would have trusted them with a marriage to Bruva, but they are one of the Five Great Houses.  A feasible option, and they would neither trust the Sartarites nor the Norinels, which fits with their 'neutral' stance.

2) House Orendelaino of Rhigos. Rhigos dominated Nochet from 1397-1430.  As Queen Bruvala consolidated power, she gained strength for Nochet over Rhigos, probably with Belintar's support.  Marrying Bruva to someone from Rhigos would be a good way to control and weaken Rhigos.  But Rhigos still wants to turn the tables on Nochet, and a marriage to Bruva's daughter would position them to regain domination in Nochet.  And Rhigos falls precipitously after this point, their trade monopoly vanished with Dormal's success.  And into the vacuum eventually emerges the Demivierge, Samastina's next major rival.  This might fit quite well.

3) House Delainaeo.  They were the actual rulers of Nochet from 1397-1430.  Their hold weakened.  Exactly what position they had under Bruvala is unknown, but by 1545-1550 they clearly gained the ear of Belintar and went on to give birth to Dormal.  Probably already in the works from a magical preparation standpoint before then.  So, no great impact from Dorasar's revenge here.  Seems less likely candidate.

4) House Delaeos.  Hadn't ruled since 1397, so long time on the outs.  Strong connections with the Old Ways of the Heortlings/Vingkotlings though.  More likely to have encouraged Arkillia's relations with Sarotar then to hinder it.  Therefore, they likely used the series of assassinations to build up their power base, with a son becoming Belintar in 1550 and Imarjina, a granddaughter of Bruvala becoming Queen in 1551 after Norina's death.  Not a likely candidate.

5) House Evaeo only briefly held the throne in 1368-1370, and generally focus on the Necropolis - not out of the question, and assassinations might just have kept them at bay, however, they are a House Delaeos/Old Earth Alliance ally.  It could be that House Delaeos took advantage of the situation to turn House Evaeo to their cause, but I'd expect more anti-Sartar sentiment in whichever House was effected.

An internal House Norinel feud seems unlikely, though possible.  Other Houses outside of Nochet are also possible.

 

 

[Joerg]

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Given that Bruvala got rid of two daughters (Bruvalaina and Bruva), there's no reason she wouldn't try to force Brengala out too in favor of a younger and manipulable successor.  If Bruvala decided that Brengala was working to oust herself as Reverend Grandmother, then going back to Bruva's offspring (where Bruva is dead) to find a compliant Queen would make sense.

Bruvala had eight daughters, which would have given her quite a number of direct female line granddaughters, more than Arkillia and Norina.

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The timing is perhaps a shade off though with Bruvala dying in 1545 and Sarotar not until 1546.  Bruvala would have had to put the effort into motion before her death, which seems unlikely.

Did Bruvala have any premonitions about her death? Or did she recognize her imminent death and decide that Brengala was better for the house. Besides, what other candidates could there have been for the next Grandmother of House Norinel? A Grandmother needn't have had a ruling role before but may have qualified herself in other matters for her House. I would guess that Bruvala outlived her sisters by half a century, but that brings a number of nieces in the right age group to qualify as Grandmother.

It is interesting that Brengala chose to retire as Queen of Nochet in favor of her daughter rather than taking Hendira's course of action, becoming acting Grandmother while leaving that post open or irrelevant.

 

Succession of grandmothers is an interesting topic anyway. Esrolian houses are big on matrilineal continuity, but there needn't be a rule that a future Grandmother is offspring of her predecessor. 

A grandmother usually steps out of her office by dying, correct? Would she train a successor, or would there be a cabal of crones training either one of their own number or a newly dedicated crone?

A newly established Grandmother usually would have no living parents or grandparents, and she would be ill-advised to stress her allegations to another House while establishing her absolute rule over her own maternal House.

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

However, there's always a 2nd Grandmother.  We don't know who Bruva married, or which House they were connected to. 

So the paternal House will take a vested interest, and will be recognized for that?

 

When the first quote says "Arkillia's Grandmother", does this mean her maternal and House's Grandmother, or her paternal Grandmother who logically would carry such ambitions?

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And with Bruva's murder, that House would have found itself on the outs with Bruvala (and likely Brengala).  Arkillia stays in the palace, but Grandmother #2 works hard to keep a connection there, and perhaps has in mind a marriage between Arkillia and another branch of her House to restore position (and more if Arkillia becomes Queen).  So Arkillia's turn to Sarotar throws that out the window. 

But how serious would be a year marriage to the lineage of Sartar for her perspective for becoming eligible as Queen of Nochet? It is evident from the sources that Arkillia had a swarm of suitors besides Sarotar, and apparently these sons of Enfranchised Houses were in it for more than just their Grandmothers' command. Arkillia must have been a woman of considerable personal charm in addition to being a "princess" of the single most powerful House in Nochet.

 

Who exactly determines the successor for a Queen of Nochet? A consensus of the Grandmothers of the Enfranchised Houses of Nochet?

I guess that with a Queen, the paternal descent does play a certain role in the eligibility, which might lead to the new most powerful House fielding the daughter with the most convenient paternal lineage rather than the favourite daughter of the Grandmother.

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

With Bruvala dead, Brengala and Norina new to their positions, Grandmother #2 strikes at Sarotar to remove him and get Arkillia repositioned as possible heir to become Queen.  This puts Grandmother #2's House into conflict with House of Sartar.

While I guess that genealogically there is nothing wrong with sending a son from another branch of matrilineally descended women of the House, I wonder whether tradition would deem such a course as palatable or favorable. A Grandmother might face less scorn for sending a first cousin from one of the girl's uncles belonging to a third House than a less directly blood-related son of her own House.

 

I see the scenario that there were at least three suitors from influential houses at odds with Sarotar. Much likely significantly more than that. A few of them may have been considerably older (but still eligible). After all, high ranking daughters of an Enfranchised House rarely wed for unlimited time.

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

So, who is on the out and trying to regain power?

1) House Oranaeo.  They held Queenship from 1430-1460, as well as holding the Governor of Heortland position.  But their internal feuds resulted in the Barren Year of 1460, from which Bruvala emerged. 

Did Bruvala have ties to House Oranaeo when she became Queen of Nochet, or was she leading an opposition?

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Not sure Bruvala would have trusted them with a marriage to Bruva, but they are one of the Five Great Houses.  A feasible option, and they would neither trust the Sartarites nor the Norinels, which fits with their 'neutral' stance.

Bruvala's first Queen of Nochet daughter Bruvalaina would have been married to the former leading House (provided it still played a serious role in determining the new Queen).

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

2) House Orendelaino of Rhigos. Rhigos dominated Nochet from 1397-1430.  As Queen Bruvala consolidated power, she gained strength for Nochet over Rhigos, probably with Belintar's support.  Marrying Bruva to someone from Rhigos would be a good way to control and weaken Rhigos.  But Rhigos still wants to turn the tables on Nochet, and a marriage to Bruva's daughter would position them to regain domination in Nochet.  And Rhigos falls precipitously after this point, their trade monopoly vanished with Dormal's success.  And into the vacuum eventually emerges the Demivierge, Samastina's next major rival.  This might fit quite well.

So, how important was Nochet under Bruvala? Rhigos certainly still had the trade monopoly and the resulting riches. In fact, Sarotar wooing one of House Norinel's daughters was a promise of gaining a share in the new profitable trade across the Pass into Peloria, which would be a way to pull even with Rhigos for the Nochet Houses. Nochet may have been the more prestigious city, but prestige doesn't necessarily equal power.

Your 1) makes it sound that regardless of its actual wealth and power, Belintar chose his Esrolian Governor from Nochet rather than the more important Rhigos, possibly out of tradition.

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

3) House Delainaeo.  They were the actual rulers of Nochet from 1397-1430.  Their hold weakened.  Exactly what position they had under Bruvala is unknown, but by 1545-1550 they clearly gained the ear of Belintar and went on to give birth to Dormal.  Probably already in the works from a magical preparation standpoint before then.  So, no great impact from Dorasar's revenge here.  Seems less likely candidate.

They received at least one son of Bruvala as a husband for one of their daughters, but that does't really set them apart from any other House.

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

4) House Delaeos.  Hadn't ruled since 1397, so long time on the outs.  Strong connections with the Old Ways of the Heortlings/Vingkotlings though.  More likely to have encouraged Arkillia's relations with Sarotar then to hinder it.  Therefore, they likely used the series of assassinations to build up their power base, with a son becoming Belintar in 1550 and Imarjina, a granddaughter of Bruvala becoming Queen in 1551 after Norina's death.  Not a likely candidate.

I agree.

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

5) House Evaeo only briefly held the throne in 1368-1370, and generally focus on the Necropolis - not out of the question, and assassinations might just have kept them at bay, however, they are a House Delaeos/Old Earth Alliance ally.  It could be that House Delaeos took advantage of the situation to turn House Evaeo to their cause, but I'd expect more anti-Sartar sentiment in whichever House was effected.

I cannot say much about this House.

 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

An internal House Norinel feud seems unlikely, though possible.  Other Houses outside of Nochet are also possible.

Bruvala must have been the most senior woman in the House, and in-house rival lineage heads would have been nieces or second-degree cousins born a generation or maybe even two later than her. I haven't given much thought to Norinevra's relationship to Bruvala - possibly a grandniece. (Norinevra is the recently deceased crone in my scenario whose body is to be returned to the Norinel mausoleum despite her back then imminent expulsion from the House upon losing Marlesta to the Puppeteers, a fate she avoided only by leaving Nochet before her House could make that declaration.)

 

I think that coming up with a bunch of rival suitors for Arkillia's hand from other Houses might be more fruitful than the hunt for her father.

[jajagappa]

25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Bruvala had eight daughters, which would have given her quite a number of direct female line granddaughters, more than Arkillia and Norina.

Of the eight daughters, three become Queens.  Of her 15 sons, one wins the Tournament of Luck and Death, and he is the one for forces her to 'retire' as Queen in 1510.  Bruvala remained fertile and desirable until age 70 or so (like Erilindia btw). She regularly heroquested to keep the goddess' blessing and was a hero herself.

Of the other five daughters, I believe one was given to the Great Temple of Ezel probably in the period where Bruvala needed their backing; one became High Priestess of the Grace Temple and a staunch ally, and likely married only on a ritual basis; and one was given to the Axe Temple and never married.  Of the remaining two girls (the ugly sisters???), I don't know.  One may have joined the Great Hospital of Chalana Arroy.  I'm sure one was a schemer for the throne - perhaps eliminated by Bruvala even before she retired.

41 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Did Bruvala have any premonitions about her death? Or did she recognize her imminent death and decide that Brengala was better for the house. Besides, what other candidates could there have been for the next Grandmother of House Norinel? A Grandmother needn't have had a ruling role before but may have qualified herself in other matters for her House. I would guess that Bruvala outlived her sisters by half a century, but that brings a number of nieces in the right age group to qualify as Grandmother.

Originally I was going to say I'm not sure about premonitions, but Bruvala was an Ernaldan hero.  Of course she would have gone to the Seers in Ezel and they would have provided her visions to her final end.  Brengala was clearly a 'survivor', adept at seeming compliant yet building her own power base to become not only Grandmother of House Norinel but Reverend Grandmother for the city.

When Queen Bruvela "retired", she dominated Esrolia for another 35 years, making her daughters queen, and removing them from power when they became uppity. Her daughter Brengala did the same for some 20 years. However, when Norina was killed by Sartarite assassins, the next queen Imarjira was not under Brengala's thumb and we have 13 years of struggle between the queen and the Reverend Grandmother. Brengala ultimately defeated Imarjira, and placed her granddaughter (from a different House) on the throne, but was ultimately assassinated herself in 1565.

Since then, I'd guess that the varied lines descending from either Bruvala's sisters or her own daughters/granddaughters (who survived) has led to a number of 'factions' within House Norinel which have likely been exacerbated by Hendira.

53 minutes ago, Joerg said:

A grandmother usually steps out of her office by dying, correct? Would she train a successor, or would there be a cabal of crones training either one of their own number or a newly dedicated crone?

Yes, would die or become witless or possibly 'retired'.  I think both training a successor or a cabal of crones choosing the successor occurs.

54 minutes ago, Joerg said:

When the first quote says "Arkillia's Grandmother", does this mean her maternal and House's Grandmother, or her paternal Grandmother who logically would carry such ambitions?

Completely unstated.  If Arkillia is Bruva's daughter, then one grandmother is Bruvala, and the timing seems off for Bruvala to go in a rage about everything.  I do have to believe that while a grandchild is part of the maternal House, the paternal House has a vested interest in seeing this figure become significant and rewarding them for their support and loyalty.  The cross-relationships among these Houses must be mind-boggling. (and a good reason to keep well-trained LM scribes in your House and enmeshed in the Temple of Knowledge.)

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Did Bruvala have ties to House Oranaeo when she became Queen of Nochet, or was she leading an opposition?

Led the opposition.  Oranaeo split into two rival factions that crippled the city.  

These were her predecessors:

Uraldartha (ruled 1430 to 1445). House Oraneao. She warred against the Volsaxi King Darvanrolar.  She guided the shaping of the Heortland peace and secured her daughter Urvaresrol as Governor of Heortland. Uraldartha retired to become Reverend Grandmother. Died in 1459.

Urorana (ruled 1445-1459).  House Oraneao.  At first, Urorana is guided well by her Reverend Grandmother.  But the seeds of jealousy grew in Urorana against her own sister Urvaresrol, particularly after the latter defeated Darvanrolar of the Volsaxi, seduced his son Volvanrolar, and had a healthy offspring.  After Uraldartha died in 1451, Urorana schemed to have Urvaresrol driven out of Heortland and succeeded in 1453.  The conflict between Urorana and Urvaresrol increased with rioting between districts of Nochet.  Urvaresrol was killed in 1458, and it seemed that the conflict was at an end.  But during the great fertility ceremony of the Grace Temple in 1459, as Queen Urorana was to embrace her Chosen, she collapsed and died.

The Barren Year (1460).  No Queen emerged in the aftermath of Urorana's death.  The Houses fell into a stalemate and Ernalda's Bounty was withdrawn from the entire city.  No children were born to any woman in the city that year.  It took a great quest by Bruvala of House Norinel to reawaken Ernalda and restore her bounty to the city.  House Oraneao fell into disgrace and withdrew from active politics.
 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Bruvala's first Queen of Nochet daughter Bruvalaina would have been married to the former leading House (provided it still played a serious role in determining the new Queen).

Except that Bruvalaina was not the eldest daughter.  And whether any offspring survived is unclear, though if they did, they did not ever become Queen.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

But how serious would be a year marriage to the lineage of Sartar for her perspective for becoming eligible as Queen of Nochet?

It could take her out of consideration by others for up to a two-year time period, depending on time of pregnancy.  It didn't suit someone's plans.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

It is evident from the sources that Arkillia had a swarm of suitors besides Sarotar, and apparently these sons of Enfranchised Houses were in it for more than just their Grandmothers' command. Arkillia must have been a woman of considerable personal charm in addition to being a "princess" of the single most powerful House in Nochet.

Yet Arkillia does not seem one to encourage them all.  Something about the "Sad Lady" title suggests she was perhaps more an object of attention than one charming the suitors.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

So, how important was Nochet under Bruvala? Rhigos certainly still had the trade monopoly and the resulting riches. In fact, Sarotar wooing one of House Norinel's daughters was a promise of gaining a share in the new profitable trade across the Pass into Peloria, which would be a way to pull even with Rhigos for the Nochet Houses. Nochet may have been the more prestigious city, but prestige doesn't necessarily equal power.

Your 1) makes it sound that regardless of its actual wealth and power, Belintar chose his Esrolian Governor from Nochet rather than the more important Rhigos, possibly out of tradition.

Bruvala's reign clearly seems to be the period when Nochet moved ahead of Rhigos in power, despite occurring before Dormal's voyages.  With the New Canal dug, the waters of the Creek-Stream River flowing past Nochet, and the Resettlement of Dragon Pass established, clearly the northern trade route was becoming significant and delivering wealth to Nochet.  Additional access to goods coming in via Karse and the Mirrorsea added to that.  I agree that Sarotar wooing Arkillia could have tied into that trade.

And yes, I do have Belintar choosing the Heortland Governor from Nochet.  Possibly out of tradition, but it's also possible that that incarnation of Belintar was from Nochet, too.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I think that coming up with a bunch of rival suitors for Arkillia's hand from other Houses might be more fruitful than the hunt for her father.

Yes, I'd agree with that.  And they could come from any of the Esrolian cities and their leading Houses, not just Nochet.   

[Grievous]

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Given that Bruvala got rid of two daughters (Bruvalaina and Bruva), there's no reason she wouldn't try to force Brengala out too in favor of a younger and manipulable successor.  If Bruvala decided that Brengala was working to oust herself as Reverend Grandmother, then going back to Bruva's offspring (where Bruva is dead) to find a compliant Queen would make sense.

My impression from the Esrolian Queens List is that Brengala enjoyed the support of her mother to the end, so it seems an ousting by Bruvala at this late stage seems rather unlikely.

Indeed, it definitely seems House Norinel comes out in a strong position even after Bruvala's death. I think Brengala's retirement to the role of Reverend Grandmother was not so much giving away power in favor of her daughter, but taking a more firm hold off things, trying to retain to status quo that existed under Bruvala. Sure, it doesn't prove quite as solid under Brengala, but still, it does essentially take Belintar to shake things up.

And perhaps we should consider the role Sartar's assassins also played. It does seem awfully convinient that they clear the table just in time for Belintar to come shake things up in favor of House Delaeos.

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However, there's always a 2nd Grandmother.  We don't know who Bruva married, or which House they were connected to.  And with Bruva's murder, that House would have found itself on the outs with Bruvala (and likely Brengala).  Arkillia stays in the palace, but Grandmother #2 works hard to keep a connection there, and perhaps has in mind a marriage between Arkillia and another branch of her House to restore position (and more if Arkillia becomes Queen).  So Arkillia's turn to Sarotar throws that out the window.  With Bruvala dead, Brengala and Norina new to their positions, Grandmother #2 strikes at Sarotar to remove him and get Arkillia repositioned as possible heir to become Queen.  This puts Grandmother #2's House into conflict with House of Sartar.

This is all possible - though I still think it would be more likely that Arkillia hides, not in the palace with her mother's killers, but with the secondary House in question. But it's not impossible, perhaps. It's really a matter of who gets to her.

Yet, if Sarotar was killed by this secondary Grandmother it doesn't explain why Norinel is on the black list when the Sartarite assassins come.

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1) House Oranaeo.  They held Queenship from 1430-1460, as well as holding the Governor of Heortland position.  But their internal feuds resulted in the Barren Year of 1460, from which Bruvala emerged.  Not sure Bruvala would have trusted them with a marriage to Bruva, but they are one of the Five Great Houses.  A feasible option, and they would neither trust the Sartarites nor the Norinels, which fits with their 'neutral' stance.

A marriage to them could have been done as an appeasement. Obviously, in the case it was to Bruva, it would've failed to that effect as Bruva herself rebelled (perhaps influenced by her husband and her House) and the scheme continues with Arkillia. However, if such a marriage was done it seems far more likely that it would have been to Bruvalaina, as Joerg suggests, even though she wasn't the eldest (she was the queen-to-be, though).

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3) House Delainaeo.  They were the actual rulers of Nochet from 1397-1430.  Their hold weakened.  Exactly what position they had under Bruvala is unknown, but by 1545-1550 they clearly gained the ear of Belintar and went on to give birth to Dormal.  Probably already in the works from a magical preparation standpoint before then.  So, no great impact from Dorasar's revenge here.  Seems less likely candidate.

The "merchant's daughter" line does favor this option a little bit.

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4) House Delaeos.  Hadn't ruled since 1397, so long time on the outs.  Strong connections with the Old Ways of the Heortlings/Vingkotlings though.  More likely to have encouraged Arkillia's relations with Sarotar then to hinder it.  Therefore, they likely used the series of assassinations to build up their power base, with a son becoming Belintar in 1550 and Imarjina, a granddaughter of Bruvala becoming Queen in 1551 after Norina's death.  Not a likely candidate.

It is possible that a Grandmother with a lenient view towards the Sartarite affair would look to Sarotar as the lever for gaining power at the expense of House Norinel. Here, the alternative suitors are those forwarded by Brengala/Norina to Arkillia, who could definitely live among them (as almost a hostage). The suitors are ones considered politically safe. The Sarotar affair endangers this, and emboldens the other House's Grandmother, who is actually in support of the affair. The love match is strong and the threat becoming real, so the suitors kill Sarotar (under the orders of the Queen or Reverend Grandmother) and House Norinel puts down any dissent in Nochet. Sartarite assassins bring justice rightly to the ones who caused the death.

It's a twist on things, mostly regarding the secondary Grandmother, but I think it's a feasible idea.

As I pointed out earlier, it does seem convinient that Sartar's assassins kill Norina, helping Delaeos place one of their own on the throne. Though it's not Arkillia they are trying to put on the throne as the earlier plot would suggest, but now they have Belintar to support their own, matrilineal claimant.

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Since then, I'd guess that the varied lines descending from either Bruvala's sisters or her own daughters/granddaughters (who survived) has led to a number of 'factions' within House Norinel which have likely been exacerbated by Hendira

That's a cool thing to consider, certainly. I sense potential adventures there.

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Yet Arkillia does not seem one to encourage them all.  Something about the "Sad Lady" title suggests she was perhaps more an object of attention than one charming the suitors.

This is possible. It's also possible that the "Sad Lady" name comes from later, when Sarotar had died and Marlesta had disappeared.

Great discussion and ideas, guys! I must say Esrolian politics has a very nice flavor to it and I'm really starting to like the place as a setting for adventures.