Mythical Pamaltela

[metcalph]

Starting a new topic.

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I can't see a source for fonrit as Vovisibor's origin.

Vovisibor comes from Bandaku (Revealed Mythologies p40), the Enemy Mountain.  Bandaku lies north of the Fense.  At first blush, Bandaku seems to be another name for the Spike as the God Learners say but upon thinking, Revealed Mythologies doesn't contain a mythic history of Fonrit.  Making Bandaku a mountain within Fonrit (I think it is now Kanem Dar) solves this apparent omission and also would be an an explicable error for the God Learners to make.

Edited November 3, 2017 by metcalph

[metcalph]

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I think there was a separate landing of the Artmali in north Pamaltela by Yeetai who founded Rew' Melod (RM p47). 

 

I was looking for any waterway leading around Somelz or its precedessors to what now is Fonrit, but I failed to find any. Churkenos went too far west before the rising of Somelz, and if you try to put Gendara etc. onto a map, Loral may be the only remaining dry part of it. Kimos is shown far inland and to the south.

You are looking at the God Learner maps in the Guide?  Ignore them, they are wrong.  They conflate the Spike with Bandaku and thus draw a misleadingly huge continent between the Spike and the Pamaltelan Mountains.  The sea flows north of Fonrit in the Storm Age as it does now.  Thinobutu is on Loral and lay where Loral is now and Kimos may or may not be at its current location.  

 

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From the Western maps, RM pp.8 and 11, it seems that Churkenos never experienced an eastward connection around the Spike, and that's corroborated by the Pamaltelan maps of pp.46, 48 and 51.

I think you need to distinguish between what the God Learners knew, what the God Learners constructed and so forth.  The God Learners did not portray the Spike as an island because in their inherited mythology they really had no experience of the lands beyond the Churkenos.    Because of their philosophical search for unity, they were intent on making all big mountains into one Cosmic Mountain and so the Spike becomes a midrash of the mythologies surrounding (IMO) Bandaku in Fonrit, Three Steps and Teleos.  The Pamaltelan maps only corroborate the lack of an eastern shore on the spike if you assume that their Sorulvela/Korvano is the same place as Bandaku.   But if it isn't, then the Pamaltelan mythical map shows a rough outline corresponding pretty much to current Pamaltela from the viewpoint of the veldt and does not confirm the God Learner geography at all.

 

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For that reason I looked for an overland settlement of Selvukko by the Veldang, and the cryptic Afati notes offered one possibility.

But the problem with the Afati led the Veldang to Fonrit is that the cryptic notes say nothing of the sort.  The Veldang/Artmali were in "Fonrit" warring with the Gendarans and the Vadeli before Afati who led a migration of Agimori according to the plain reading of the notes.

 

 

[metcalph]

 

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I interpret the fragmentary material on p49 as follows.  The Artmali had some sort of civilization which included the Zaranistangi in Fonrit in the Flood era. 

Did they have a shore there, then? Or did Yeetai's cloud ships land on some inland body of water?

As I said above, I believe the shoreline in Fonrit is pretty much close to current Fonrit.  Where the mythical maps and the current maps differ, I tend to go with current geography.  For example. it makes better sense to have Bandaku as being the island of Kanem Dar then it is to have it far out into the sea with no remaining connection to known geography.  

 

 

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Known landmarks include the Hard Rock (now the isle of Kanem Dar) and the Soft Heart

What are your indications for placing these obscure places in Fonrit, other than to make this fit your theory?

 

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Coborandra. Ancestral Home of the Zaranistangi. When asked where this land was, they always replied “between Star and Sea, halfway from the Hard Rock and the Soft Heart.” Although outsiders universally believe this describes the planet Mastakos overhead, it is in fact a place upon the ancient mountain of Bandaku 

Revealed Mythologies p60.

 

My interpretation (which has Bandaku as the Hard Earth or Kanem Dar) does differ from the text which suggests that the entire land is Bandaku. I should observe that between the isles of Kanem Dar and the Inland Sea is the land of Yrania from whence the Moon-worshipping Yranians came.

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(what is know the Inland Sea which I think was land-locked until the Closing Guide p553). 

According to the Mythical Maps of the Breaking of the World and the Grey Age, there were no water bodies inland of the -guyas at the Dawn.

You seriously suggest the mythical maps of that place to be geograpically correct?  Why then is it called the Inland Sea when it is pretty much more exposed to the open ocean than the Mirrorsea?

 

[metcalph]

 

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  2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Tishamto and Gendara don't rise until the middle Storm Age.  The Artmali move against Tishamto.

Looking at the map of the Flood Age, Tishamto and Gendara form out of the Jungle, possibly cleared by the initial impact of the Sevasbos invasion into that forest. Interestingly, the forest surrounding the Spike's base (piercing through the Earth) now is the Greenwood rather than Yellow Elf jungle.

 

Umm.  Recheck your map.  Tishamto is in the south of Pamaltela and not the north.  The maps may suggest that Gendara was formed out of the Jungle but I don't believe in the maps.  Gendara is the Loral Isles and the first Torrential War is the flooding of the lowlands.  
 

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Like I said, the coast lines needn't be exact, but I did not get the impression that the forest between Spike and Fense was drowned prior to the Great Torrent just before the Breaking of the World.

You did not get the impression from the map, true, but then this makes the huge assumption that the God Learner map is a correct and true representation of the geography of the period.  But it is a God Learner construction from the myths and the indication here and elsewhere is that the God Learners simply didn't understand the myths very well (for example their placement of the Heron Hegemony near Slon rather than Darjiin).

 

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The Artmali go to war against Gendara/Genjara.  This may have included the wars of the Zaranistangi against Bredjeg (RM p47).  The Zaranistangi left and the Empire fell apart.

Bredjeg is never mentioned anywhere else apart from this Veldang myth. The Sky Wars mentioned appear to have seen Tolat and Lorion on the same side, united against Bredjeg.

Yes and?

 

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The only cognate in Genertelan myth would be Umath clashing with Tolat;

You are reaching again.  You should be saying the only cognate that you can recall.  In any case Bredjeg is a Storm God and he is a cognate of Umath and Oorsu Sara.

 

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This creates a problem with the sequence of Godswar events, though - the Zaranistangi and Veldang are supposed to appear only after Orlanth's conquest of the Sky, 

 

Where is this stated?  Orlanth is not mentioned in the relevant sections on the Zaranistangi or the Artmali.

[metcalph]

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The Artmali then have a conflict of some time with Oabil.  Sor (Guide p572) on the isle of Kanem Dar was probably founded at this time.  Other parts of Fonrit remained under Artmali control but they were unable to expel the Vadeli conquerors from Kanem Dar.  The Vadeli have been here since the flood so this conflict will occur early in the middle Storm Age.

Still the maps show Oabil as south of the Fense mountains, and Chir north of it, and west of the Jungle. Poto and Chir are mentioned in the Vadeli chapter, while Oabil is the Pamaltelan term, so I would assume Poto to be identical with the Oabil in the maps.

Oabil is what the source text (Revealed Mythologies p49) referred to and that is why I used it.  I really don't see why labelling down the precise extent of Poto, Chir and Oabil to be at all necessary when all that is needed is a convenient name for the Vadeli Kingdom to the west of Fonrit.

 

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The absence of the floods is what makes Fonrit so difficult. The Sevasbos Sea is described as a host of sea gods led by Serelazam, but it shows no expansion between the Middle and the Late Storm Age, and only the Great Torrent preceding the Breaking of the World finally drowns the interim Thinobutan exodus lands.

More evidence that the maps are crap for this particular area, no?  In any case the problems of the Gendarans with the sea are hardly relevant to who is living in Fonrit at the relevant time.

[metcalph]

 

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  2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Afati's conquest then begins.  Afati is said to be from decadent Tishamto which is said to be after its conquest by Kungatu (RM p65).  So this is some time after its founding.  Now the key puzzle here is that Afati conquers the southern part of the Artmali Empire with the gloss that Southern means that it was south of the wall mountains.  At first sight, the wall mountains refers to the Fense (Mari, Tarmo and Palarki). 

This does indeed conflict with the assumed long-lived empire of the Indigo Conqueror, but I thought that Afati might have intervened in a succession struggle after Jarkaru's demise, and temporarily have conquered Kungatu and Mondator before moving north.

The trouble is that it requires a simple statement be turned into a convoluted explanation.  The text doesn't mention Kungatu or Mondator not does the dictionary.  Kungatu gets destroyed by the Firefall not conquered by Afati.

 

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But that refers to Kungatu which can't be right (Kungatu just conquered Tishamto which in turn in conquering the northern portion of Kungatu?!?).  Then it struck me.  The Wall Mountains being referred to is the mountain range that runs from the Tarmo in the southwest to Kareeshtu in the northeast.  Afati is hence conquering the region south of this mountain range being the Baruling Valley, Tarahorn and Laskal!  Support for this comes from the name of Afati-Tal (Guide p568) a recent and deceased foe of the Pulajeg Empire.  So the original Fonritans are Agimori from Tishamto who moved northwards in the middle Storm Age to avoid continued rule by Kungatu. 

The Agimori of Laskal and Baruling, the parts of Fonrit without any Veldang population?

What do you mean?  There were Artmali living in the region before Afati came and I think they remained as slaves after he conquered the land.  It is only the Artmali north of the Wall Mountains that remain free. 

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I would guess that Afati would be an inherited name rather than a presumed identity with the Storm Age immortal leader. I find it rather hard to imagine a non-drinker going diving.

You are going to have to explain the remark about the non-drinker.  If its a reference to lineages than I fail to see why Afati or other Tishamotoans should not have medicine plant lineages.  And why wouldn't Afati be worshipped in Laskal?

[metcalph]

 

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  2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Afati's conquest then begins.  Afati is said to be from decadent Tishamto which is said to be after its conquest by Kungatu (RM p65).  So this is some time after its founding.  Now the key puzzle here is that Afati conquers the southern part of the Artmali Empire with the gloss that Southern means that it was south of the wall mountains.  At first sight, the wall mountains refers to the Fense (Mari, Tarmo and Palarki). 

This does indeed conflict with the assumed long-lived empire of the Indigo Conqueror, but I thought that Afati might have intervened in a succession struggle after Jarkaru's demise, and temporarily have conquered Kungatu and Mondator before moving north.

The trouble is that it requires a simple statement be turned into a convoluted explanation.  The text doesn't mention Kungatu or Mondator not does the dictionary.  Kungatu gets destroyed by the Firefall not conquered by Afati.

 

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But that refers to Kungatu which can't be right (Kungatu just conquered Tishamto which in turn in conquering the northern portion of Kungatu?!?).  Then it struck me.  The Wall Mountains being referred to is the mountain range that runs from the Tarmo in the southwest to Kareeshtu in the northeast.  Afati is hence conquering the region south of this mountain range being the Baruling Valley, Tarahorn and Laskal!  Support for this comes from the name of Afati-Tal (Guide p568) a recent and deceased foe of the Pulajeg Empire.  So the original Fonritans are Agimori from Tishamto who moved northwards in the middle Storm Age to avoid continued rule by Kungatu. 

The Agimori of Laskal and Baruling, the parts of Fonrit without any Veldang population?

What do you mean?  There were Artmali living in the region before Afati came and I think they remained as slaves after he conquered the land.  It is only the Artmali north of the Wall Mountains that remain free. 

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I would guess that Afati would be an inherited name rather than a presumed identity with the Storm Age immortal leader. I find it rather hard to imagine a non-drinker going diving.

You are going to have to explain the remark about the non-drinker.  If its a reference to lineages than I fail to see why Afati or other Tishamotoans should not have medicine plant lineages.  And why wouldn't Afati be worshipped in Laskal?

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

You are looking at the God Learner maps in the Guide?  Ignore them, they are wrong. 

I agree - much in the southwest is conjecture, like e.g. the Heron Hegemony, which would be a reference to Suvaria in relation to Yuthubars.

 

Some of the obscure stuff like the "Camp of Innocence" appears to be correct nevertheless, although it also gets conflated with the Red Camp of the Dara Happans. The Afidisa story mentions four camps around Pamalt's realm, but doesn't get beyond Innocence.

And I do put some faith in the Western maps which show Chir on the eastern shore of Churkenos - if not from Brithini sources, then from Waertagi ones.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

They conflate the Spike with Bandaku

Conflating other high places with the Spike is endemic in that map, yes, or mythical Glorantha is a fractal repetition of patterns like central mountain, four camps around it, etc. - I did already mention Suvaria.

There is one mention of herons in Pamaltela - there is the Kyowkuk green heron tribe of Fiwan in Tarien, as per Guide p.589, but that small Hsunchen folk doesn't make a Heron Hegemony like Surenslib's Suvaria.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

and thus draw a misleadingly huge continent between the Spike and the Pamaltelan Mountains.  The sea flows north of Fonrit in the Storm Age as it does now.  Thinobutu is on Loral and lay where Loral is now and Kimos may or may not be at its current location.  

So Thinobutu really is Sharzu. No problem with that.

But still, we have all the recorded drownings of the Eastern Lands, and the Agimori footmarsh to Teleos and onward to Prax just before the lands were flooded, and that mpst likely after the battle with Vovisibor. The seas suffered a great setback after Worcha's defeat, and even Faralinthor's sea disappeared in the later Storm Age.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I think you need to distinguish between what the God Learners knew, what the God Learners constructed and so forth.  The God Learners did not portray the Spike as an island because in their inherited mythology they really had no experience of the lands beyond the Churkenos.    Because of their philosophical search for unity, they were intent on making all big mountains into one Cosmic Mountain and so the Spike becomes a midrash of the mythologies surrounding (IMO) Bandaku in Fonrit, Three Steps and Teleos. 

I'm with you here. I'd add Hrelar Amali, Mts. Turos and Jernotius and Yuthubars/Raibanth as further "little Spikes", and Magnetic Mountain in Curustus for the Western perspective. Note that the Pamaltelan myth has Bandaku collapsing, too. The remains may be little more than a stump of a mountain nowadays.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Pamaltelan maps only corroborate the lack of an eastern shore on the spike if you assume that their Sorulvela/Korvano is the same place as Bandaku.   But if it isn't, then the Pamaltelan mythical map shows a rough outline corresponding pretty much to current Pamaltela from the viewpoint of the veldt and does not confirm the God Learner geography at all.

True - the "Agimori" of Thinobutu don't get decent maps, or a somewhat conclusive history.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

But the problem with the Afati led the Veldang to Fonrit is that the cryptic notes say nothing of the sort.  The Veldang/Artmali were in "Fonrit" warring with the Gendarans and the Vadeli before Afati who led a migration of Agimori according to the plain reading of the notes.

There are a few peculiarities that could support a mixed army of Veldang and Agimori led by Afati, plundering Kungatu before turning north into Selvukko to avoid retaliation for their retaliation. Are there any blues or significant numbers of Torabs in Banamba?

 

Here's what I had prepared for this discussion, which you beat me to posting in a different thread:

After the conquest of Tishamto, the Agitorani Afati conquered the southern Artmali Empire. This would have been during the rule of Jarkaru, or shortly afterwards.

 

Revealed Mythologies presents this in a most confused form (p.49):

“Story: Afati (an Agitorani) leads an army against the southern part of the Artmali Empire, takes it, then leaves. Truth: Afati was probably from Tishamto, after its downfall. “Southern” simply means it was south of the wall mountains.”

 

The Glossary names Afati as King of Tishamto.

One way to read this is that he was defeated by Jarkaru, and his lands conquered. It isn’t clear whether that removed him from his position as King of Tishamto, or whether he was king for Jarkaru.

 

He leads an army against the southern part of the Artmali Empire and takes it. It is possible that he manages to raid the Artmali of Kungatu, possibly while the Armada with the majority of its warriors was elsewhere, and Afati has a decisive victory over the remaining imperial Artmali forces.

 

We don’t learn who served in that army. It would be Agimori from urban Tishamto as Afati’s house force, but it could just as well have included Veldang rebels who had been disowned by the Emperor seeking a comeuppance.

 

If Afati did invade Kungatu and achieved a victory there over the remaining forces, he and his allies might have realized that the Indigo Armada would return, and take the land from them again, so it is possible that he just plundered it to provide for the exodus north, into Fonrit.

 

“Story: Seshnegi and remnants of Elamle ally to destroy the remaining part of the Artmali Empire. Truth: This is the destruction of the last of Afati’s New Artmali in later Fonrit. Again, Elamle means Gendaran”

 

I don’t see any way the “Seshnegi” could have intervened here, unless we are talking about Basmoli lion people on their migration north from Tarien into Seshnela. In that case, they could have been the ancestors of the Pendali.

Overall, this sounds like the settlement of Thinokos by Outrigger People with Thinobutan ancestry.

 

According to the mythic maps both in RM and the Guide Fonrit was completely land-locked in this time. To the west, the coast of Chir was under Vadeli control. Probably populated by Agimori and Veldang slaves taken from Tarien.

 

It is difficult to locate the position of the Churkenos shore due to the later raising of Somelz by the Mostali, effectively eliminating the southern portions of Chir in the process – a light loss in the light of the conquest of Zerendel by their main empire of Endernef. It is possible that the coastline of Chir/Churkenos ran along the western edge of Vralos, with much of Umathela below the floods of Churkenos. (The Enkloso forest must have been established or at least spread out after the Breaking of the World with its separaion of eastern Somelz and the weakening of the southeastern (Slon) Mostali. For some reason, they gave up Mt. Tharkarn – possibly already during the raising of Somelz – and went underground, to the current location of Slon.)

 

Vadeli presence in modern Fonrit depends on how far the modern peninsula was from the Churkenos sea. The further east this coastline, the greater the Vadeli presence here, north of the Fense.

This wasn’t the southern slave empire of Oabil, though – that was in Tarien, in all likelihood far inland from the modern coastline of the Hornilio Marsh.

 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

As I said above, I believe the shoreline in Fonrit is pretty much close to current Fonrit.  Where the mythical maps and the current maps differ, I tend to go with current geography.  For example. it makes better sense to have Bandaku as being the island of Kanem Dar then it is to have it far out into the sea with no remaining connection to known geography.  

There was this minor incident called the Breaking of the World, aka the Implosion of the Spike, and the formation of a world-piercing void in the center of the Lozenge. The cube of Earth still is apart, and although the first repair effort to close up one of those rifts (the one that ripped the repair project Somelz apart) has started with the symbolic towing between Slon and the Capstone, the other rifts are still open. A lot of geography has disappeared just northeast of the -guya islands.

The Somelz Repair Project demands that there is a rift below Jorkar's Sea, though unusually not a vertical rift like for the Denestlazam, Sedlazam and Seralazam oceans, but apparently deflected into a non-vertical gap.

The sea bottom of the Swermela Sea is going to glide under Enkloso, which would overhang an underground ocean unknown to the land dwellers, and soon to be destroyed by the Mostali. Vralos might escape the Somelz plan, but Enkloso is going to see a major Elder Races war with human sepois on both sides. The Dark Trolls of Tarmo might join in just for the fun of it, as will Terthinus. It will be interesting to see whether the Pelmre/Slarge from southern Tarien will fight the Mostali or rather push the Agimori out of Tarien and southern Jolar, on top of whichever Genertelan chaotics emerging from the Nargar Desert.

Kumanku should lie on the Pamaltelan "plate" (or better shard) rather than on the Somelz/Jrustela shard.

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

My interpretation (which has Bandaku as the Hard Earth or Kanem Dar) does differ from the text which suggests that the entire land is Bandaku.

I would expand Bandaku into some of the sea bottom of the Marthino and Dashomo Seas. Pamaltelan myth has Bandaku raised by Bolongo, but destroyed in the struggle between Pamalt and Vovisibor, and in some stories Pamalt taking credit for that. Hence I am not convinced about the role of Kanem Dar as the Little Spike of Pamaltela. I would rather locate the Bandaku peak off the -guya fingers.

 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

I should observe that between the isles of Kanem Dar and the Inland Sea is the land of Yrania from whence the Moon-worshipping Yranians came.

And?

Finding a moon worshipping cult among wretched heirs of the Artmali Empire isn't that surprising.

The "Leapers" bit does offer a taste of the Lopers, but no such creatures were reported. Now Gabaryanga operates in the name of the Blue Moon from Jokotu in Mondator. Using Tarahorn as staging ground for a blue "republic" in the style of Wontabu probably promises some old God Learner magics. Not enough, so that Seseine Kallig has little difficulty to sell her Chaos alliance to the desperate blues.

 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

You seriously suggest the mythical maps of that place to be geograpically correct?  Why then is it called the Inland Sea when it is pretty much more exposed to the open ocean than the Mirrorsea?

Because it isn't affected by the Closing any more, and probably never was, except for the wavefront that preceded the spread of the Closing and may have created or deepened that body of water.

 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

 

Umm.  Recheck your map.  Tishamto is in the south of Pamaltela and not the north.  The maps may suggest that Gendara was formed out of the Jungle but I don't believe in the maps.  Gendara is the Loral Isles and the first Torrential War is the flooding of the lowlands.  

Mental autocorrect running amok here - I meant Thinobutu.

 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

You did not get the impression from the map, true, but then this makes the huge assumption that the God Learner map is a correct and true representation of the geography of the period.  But it is a God Learner construction from the myths and the indication here and elsewhere is that the God Learners simply didn't understand the myths very well (for example their placement of the Heron Hegemony near Slon rather than Darjiin).

Yes. We agree on there being big deficits to God Learner knowledge, which is quite strange since they were extremely active in Umathela. But then they didn't seem to believe much in expeditions to those uncomfortable lands in the south, preferring armchair declarations of extinction.

 

Bredjeg unmentioned elsewhere:

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Yes and?

Events in the Sky are among the few things most of the Gloranthan myths can agree upon.

Shargash sort of disappears as a Sky Defender after his collision with Umath, instead ruling from below Alkoth, or roaming about as Tolat, emerging from the Underworld into the sky where and when he sees fit.

I don't see evidence for planets rising and setting at a regular schedule (measured against the rotations of the starry sky) after Yelm's descent into Wonderhome. Orlanth's invasion sending the Emperor into the Underworld is shared by Pamaltelan myth. Kendamalar in Hell begets Chermata and Veldara on Enjata Mo, and Veldara serves as ersatz-sun for much of the Artmali Period.

It would have been convenient to identify Tolat's sky invader with Orlanth or Umath, but there was no Artmal then if Veldara is indeed the child of Enjata Mo conceived in the Underworld. Before the rise of Enjata Mo and her two children, there could be no Artmal.

Veldara and Lorion apparently rise as a team, coloring the sky blue. Did Tolat oppose this invasion? Then why would Artmal help Tolat fight his own father Lorion? So, no fun here.

The only known victory of Orlanth against a major Chaos foe is his victory over Tyram in the (Middle?) Sky. (Apart from that, we get his fight against the Lesser Kajabori aiding Shankgaro (Uzlord of the West, which probably means Halikiv) during the Westfaring, and that's it. Otherwise he leads armies which lose and retreats in up to 48 parts.) This and the sequence of the major Chaos incursions place this conflict long after Artmal's dismemberment by the hands of Baraku.

This leaves a very narrow window for Tolat to have fought Bredjeg and gaining aid from his nephew, or otherwise another nonsequential appearance of the semi-mortal son and ruler of a major contestant in the Gods War.

Was there a storm reaction to Sea and Moon conquering the Sky Dome, or was Orlanth satisfied with having won the Middle Sky as his domain?

 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

You are reaching again.  You should be saying the only cognate that you can recall.  In any case Bredjeg is a Storm God and he is a cognate of Umath and Oorsu Sara.

And that places him two ages before the birth of Veldara, let alone Artmal, which was a consequence of Kendamalar sent to Hell and replaced by Vovisibor.

Like I said, stellar invasions are world-wide events. They may have lesser reflections, like the double Kalikos appearance, once in the Umath smashes the Northern Pillar myth, and again in that Kalikos defrosts the Sky Dome myth of the Char-un.

So, was Bredjeg a lesser reflection of Umath bowling nearly a celestial strike before ending up in the retrieval ditch? Or do we have an Artmal already in the Golden Age/Old People Period?

 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Where is this stated?  Orlanth is not mentioned in the relevant sections on the Zaranistangi or the Artmali.

Stellar events provide the shared timeline, remember?

Orlanth not being mentioned in the relevant sections sort of proves my point - he had completed his conquest of the Middle Sky, and remained its uncontested ruler until Tyram showed up. (No idea which part of the Sky Tolat/Shargash/Jagrekriand roamed, but he never attempted to oust Orlanth, for all we know - their major showdown was at Arrowmound. Although Orlanth's Exile might be read as such an incident when you look at it from a Tolat perspective.)

Again: Kendamalar the Sun Emperor is sent to Hell, for which the Doraddi blame Bolongo or the Five Evil Ones (add Sedenya7proto-Veldara, Tolat, Artia/Pujaleg, and Baraku/Orlanth. Enjata-Mo is his transformed widow, who emerges from the Underworld with her two children conceived from the cinders of the sun, Veldara and her twin. (Which should be Tolat rather than Lokarnos... so much for sky myths being somewhat universal.) Both Tolat and Veldara are former Planetary Sons of the Sun Emperor, sent to Hell and re-emerging.

 

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Oabil is what the source text (Revealed Mythologies p49) referred to and that is why I used it.  I really don't see why labelling down the precise extent of Poto, Chir and Oabil to be at all necessary when all that is needed is a convenient name for the Vadeli Kingdom to the west of Fonrit.

It would be convenient to have the Vadeli occupying Fonrit for some time during the ups and downs (phases) of the various Artmali empires, and I would enjoy a Vadeli meddling with the Thinobutans in addition to Artmali badassery and Adpara/Antigod devastations.

Oabil was known to and feared by the Doraddi of the Veldt, too, which is why I think that a significant portion of Chir would have been south of the Fense.

 

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

More evidence that the maps are crap for this particular area, no?  In any case the problems of the Gendarans with the sea are hardly relevant to who is living in Fonrit at the relevant time.

You wanted to plant Yeetai's earliest Artmali in Fonrit, which is what I found hard to justify according to all the mythical maps of the Spike or its lesser reflections. That's what I protested here.

And Bandaku obviously had some population besides Bolongo. And besides the Vadeli immigrants and the aldryami. The uz could have come at any time, from below, but that exit should have disappeared along with Bandaku upon its collapse.

 

Placing Afati in the Artmali ups and downs:

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

The trouble is that it requires a simple statement be turned into a convoluted explanation.  The text doesn't mention Kungatu or Mondator not does the dictionary.  Kungatu gets destroyed by the Firefall not conquered by Afati.

 

In this approach Afati conquers, then leaves. Much like Sheng in Kralorela or Harrek in Laskal, or Arkat in Tanisor. He then establishes the Tishamto-descended Doraddi in Banamba and the break east of the Tarmo.

After Afati leaves, Kungatu either reverts to its previous emperor (if that was Jarkartu away with his armada) or otherwise gets a new emperor, possibly from Artmali allies of Afati.

Kungatu gets conquered or at least 

 

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

What do you mean?  There were Artmali living in the region before Afati came

Possible. Do we have a clear, non contradictory source for that? The mysterious "story" synopsis explicity says "Afati's New Artmali" in the explanatory paragraph.

Maybe settled here by a previous emperor of the Artmali, possibly enslaved by the Vadeli of Chir (and possibly liberated by Afati, and possibly taken over by Veldang out of Afati's army).

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

and I think they remained as slaves after he conquered the land.  It is only the Artmali north of the Wall Mountains that remain free. 

Afati's conquest (or simply settlement?) of Laskal is followed by the successful invasion of Basmoli ("Seshnegi") and Thinokans leading to Thinokos. Where the Basmoli may have done the invading and the Thinokans doing the settling.

The Doraddi from Tishamto would have to conquer the aldryami to settle in Banamba and south of that.

 

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

You are going to have to explain the remark about the non-drinker.  

I was pondering the possibility that the original Afati still was around, leading a hidden life as one of the people, and then emerging as a leader.

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

If its a reference to lineages than I fail to see why Afati or other Tishamotoans should not have medicine plant lineages.  And why wouldn't Afati be worshipped in Laskal?

Afati the Agitorani cannot have left a lineage plant, since as an Agitorani he wouldn't leave a lineage. The rest of the Tishamto are Doraddi with lineage plants. (Basically, the term Doraddi refers to the reception of lineage plants, and makes a useful difference to the "race" moniker "Agimori" which is about as accurate when applied to the Thinobutans as the use of "Wareran" for Pelorians.