best Pamaltela sources on the internet

[Manu]

Hi,

On top of the GoG, where can I find information on Pamaltela (mainly Umathela and Fonrit right now, but the whole continent is good too). Web? Other books (than the GoG)?

 

Thanks

[metcalph]

Revealed Mythologies (although it doesn't cover Umathela very well and it was a long time before I noticed that a large part of Pamaltelan mythology was actually a mythic struggle against Fonrit).

 

[jajagappa]

The old Heroes magazine (v1 #6) published by Avalon Hill had the original background info for Fonrit, as well as a scenario called the Big Hit by Sandy Petersen.  

For non-canonical sources, there was an issue of Tradetalk dedicated to Pamaltela.  It's available on Drivethrurpg here: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/61198/Tradetalk--14--Outside-Genertala-The-Southern-Continent 

There was also content in Tales of the Reaching Moon, but you probably need to search eBay for issues of that.

 

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, Manu said:

On top of the GoG

GoG = Gods of Glorantha

GtG = https://www.chaosium.com/the-guide-to-glorantha-pdf/

Parts of GoG are here: http://www.glorantha.com/docs/doraddi-pantheon/

Also http://www.glorantha.com/?s=Pamaltela&submit=Search

and http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/pamaltelanGods.html

Here is a very rich vein of Glorantha goodness - Pamaltela info here often from Sandy Petersen : http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/

such as - http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd5/1997.09/1289.html

 

 

 

[jajagappa]

And there's the HeroQuest voices for the Doraddi here: http://www.glorantha.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ISS3001-HQVoices-Doraddi.pdf 

[Brian McReynolds]

'Tales of the Reaching Moon' number 11 was the Pamaltela themed issue if memory serves me right. May be able to pick it up from eBay.

[Manu]

Thanks guys for the answers. I have the TotRM.

Where can I find the 'Revealed mythologies'? Never heard of it.

I'll check all the links (and I'll try not to get lost in the depth of the digest...)

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Manu said:

Where can I find the 'Revealed mythologies'? Never heard of it.

https://www.chaosium.com/revealed-mythologies-pdf/

It's in an unfinished form so may not be what you seek.  

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Manu said:

Where can I find the 'Revealed mythologies'? Never heard of it.

 

Revealed Mythologies is volume six of the Stafford Library publications, available as pdf from Chaosium.

https://www.chaosium.com/stafford-library/

This book gives myths and snippets of history for the West, the East and the South. You get a number of myths for each of the periods of Pamaltela, with coastal Pamaltela (Thinobutan Outrigger folk and Fonrit) getting a few pages apart.

I find it difficult to get a somewhat coherent picture for the history of the Artmali and the settlement of Fonrit - right now I think that Fonrit was settled by Veldang under the leadership of the urban Agitorani Afati, whereas urban Agimori were originally found only  south and east of Koraru Bay.

 

The main Chaos invader to Pamaltela was Vovisibor, aka Filth Which Walks, and he/it was defeated already in the Late Storm Age. Later Chaos and (eastern) Antigod interaction was limited to the coasts of Pamaltela, most of which were sunk before the Dawn.

 

[metcalph]

Just now, Joerg said:

I find it difficult to get a somewhat coherent picture for the history of the Artmali and the settlement of Fonrit - right now I think that Fonrit was settled by Veldang under the leadership of the urban Agitorani Afati, whereas urban Agimori were originally found only  south and east of Koraru Bay.

I think there was a separate landing of the Artmali in north Pamaltela by Yeetai who founded Rew' Melod (RM p47).  I interpret the fragmentary material on p49 as follows.  The Artmali had some sort of civilization which included the Zaranistangi in Fonrit in the Flood era.  Known landmarks include the Hard Rock (now the isle of Kanem Dar) and the Soft Heart (what is know the Inland Sea which I think was land-locked until the Closing Guide p553).  Tishamto and Gendara don't rise until the middle Storm Age.  The Artmali move against Tishamto.

The Artmali go to war against Gendara/Genjara.  This may have included the wars of the Zaranistangi against Bredjeg (RM p47).  The Zaranistangi left and the Empire fell apart.

The Artmali then have a conflict of some time with Oabil.  Sor (Guide p572) on the isle of Kanem Dar was probably founded at this time.  Other parts of Fonrit remained under Artmali control but they were unable to expel the Vadeli conquerors from Kanem Dar.  The Vadeli have been here since the flood so this conflict will occur early in the middle Storm Age.

Afati's conquest then begins.  Afati is said to be from decadent Tishamto which is said to be after its conquest by Kungatu (RM p65).  So this is some time after its founding.  Now the key puzzle here is that Afati conquers the southern part of the Artmali Empire with the gloss that Southern means that it was south of the wall mountains.  At first sight, the wall mountains refers to the Fense (Mari, Tarmo and Palarki).  But that refers to Kungatu which can't be right (Kungatu just conquered Tishamto which in turn in conquering the northern portion of Kungatu?!?).  Then it struck me.  The Wall Mountains being referred to is the mountain range that runs from the Tarmo in the southwest to Kareeshtu in the northeast.  Afati is hence conquering the region south of this mountain range being the Baruling Valley, Tarahorn and Laskal!  Support for this comes from the name of Afati-Tal (Guide p568) a recent and deceased foe of the Pulajeg Empire.  So the original Fonritans are Agimori from Tishamto who moved northwards in the middle Storm Age to avoid continued rule by Kungatu.  This also resolves the vexed issue of Mondator being a name for Fonrit (Guide p561) yet is placed wouth of the Fense in the mythic maps (Guide p688).  The God Learners knew the name and that it lay south of the mountains.  But they got confused by the mountains being referred to and so put Mondator in the wrong place.

The last section supposedly refers to the Oabil and the Genjeran remants ganging up on the Fonritans.  Afati's people could be described as the New Artmali (in that they were forced to take up Artmali customs) but I think the usage odd.  In any case it doesn't really matter as five wicked shamans/sorcerors/whatever killed Kendalamar to create Vovisibor.  I'm assuming that one is Vadeli, one is Artmali, one is Genjeran, one is Afatite/proto-Fonritan/Tishamto and the last could be a yellow elf.

 

Just now, Joerg said:

The main Chaos invader to Pamaltela was Vovisibor, aka Filth Which Walks, and he/it was defeated already in the Late Storm Age. Later Chaos and (eastern) Antigod interaction was limited to the coasts of Pamaltela, most of which were sunk before the Dawn.

Vovisibor wasn't really an invader as he came from Fonrit.  

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Quote

The main Chaos invader to Pamaltela was Vovisibor, aka Filth Which Walks, and he/it was defeated already in the Late Storm Age. Later Chaos and (eastern) Antigod interaction was limited to the coasts of Pamaltela, most of which were sunk before the Dawn.

Vovisibor wasn't really an invader as he came from Fonrit.  

I can't see a source for fonrit as Vovisibor's origin.

[Joerg]

Sorry about hijacking this thread about Pamaltela resources on the web... maybe it has the potential to become one in itself.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

I think there was a separate landing of the Artmali in north Pamaltela by Yeetai who founded Rew' Melod (RM p47). 

I was looking for any waterway leading around Somelz or its precedessors to what now is Fonrit, but I failed to find any. Churkenos went too far west before the rising of Somelz, and if you try to put Gendara etc. onto a map, Loral may be the only remaining dry part of it. Kimos is shown far inland and to the south.

Of course we don't have reliable maximum shore lines for the Storm Age. I would think that the Flood Age map would aim to provide some sort of High Water mark, but that seems to be true mainly for Genertela.

From remarks further down in your quotes it seems that you assume that the land south of the Spike would have been flooded significantly more than shown on the Flood Age mythical map, at one point or another. There is however a much limited flooding from the Torrential Wars, leaving places like Sharzu or Gendara the northern shore of Pamaltela, nowadays far outside in the Marthino Sea. I see a possibility that the Seas invasion went past Gendara, covering parts of the forest there all the way to Fonrit.

From the Western maps, RM pp.8 and 11, it seems that Churkenos never experienced an eastward connection around the Spike, and that's corroborated by the Pamaltelan maps of pp.46, 48 and 51. Only the composite maps of the Guide report the Sevasbos invasion, and name it only for the second of the maps it appears on. For the eastern Pamaltelan coast, the RM maps of the East may be more informative than those of Pamaltela, but those maps too always show an intact landbridge and forest from the foot of the Spike to the Fense mountains north of Tarien, Jolar and Kothar.

For that reason I looked for an overland settlement of Selvukko by the Veldang, and the cryptic Afati notes offered one possibility.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

I interpret the fragmentary material on p49 as follows.  The Artmali had some sort of civilization which included the Zaranistangi in Fonrit in the Flood era. 

Did they have a shore there, then? Or did Yeetai's cloud ships land on some inland body of water?

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Known landmarks include the Hard Rock (now the isle of Kanem Dar) and the Soft Heart

What are your indications for placing these obscure places in Fonrit, other than to make this fit your theory?

 

I read Coborandra as a planetary land, halfway between Earth or the Spike and the upper sky. The Soft Heart may as well be the hole now occupied by Pole Star which remained unfilled when Umath pushed the Sky up from its pivot on the Spike. The Zaranistangi connection to Mastakos/Uleria/Emilla makes a second planetary body likely.

RM p.47:

Quote

All of Veldara’s first descendants lived upon her broad surface. All of the things that look like specs of light and that we call stars and planets are more than you think. They are called planets, palaces, and cities of the gods, and so on. In fact, each is a world, with its own rivers and mountains and wild life where the Great Gods and Planetary Forces reside.

Upon such a virgin world was born the tribe called the Artmali. Artmal was their father, who made the customs and laws that guided them to success. Veldara was their Mother, who gave them form and secret powers.

So, this suggests that there were other celestial bodies carrying life and even civilizations, and as far as I am concerned, the Zaranistangi are one of those from a different celestial body than Veldara.

The Loper  beasts are nowhere to be found in Fonrit, or any beasts like them. Somehow the Loper Riders appear to have been able to find nourishment for their beasts in the Wastes, suggesting that they have an acceptable origin. But then the Sable antelopes appear to be of not quite Storm Bull ancestry either.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

(what is know the Inland Sea which I think was land-locked until the Closing Guide p553). 

According to the Mythical Maps of the Breaking of the World and the Grey Age, there were no water bodies inland of the -guyas at the Dawn.

The God Learners called Kanem Dar "Kebor Island", which indicates that the Poysida Strait already existed.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Tishamto and Gendara don't rise until the middle Storm Age.  The Artmali move against Tishamto.

 

Looking at the map of the Flood Age, Tishamto and Gendara form out of the Jungle, possibly cleared by the initial impact of the Sevasbos invasion into that forest. Interestingly, the forest surrounding the Spike's base (piercing through the Earth) now is the Greenwood rather than Yellow Elf jungle.

Like I said, the coast lines needn't be exact, but I did not get the impression that the forest between Spike and Fense was drowned prior to the Great Torrent just before the Breaking of the World.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Artmali go to war against Gendara/Genjara.  This may have included the wars of the Zaranistangi against Bredjeg (RM p47).  The Zaranistangi left and the Empire fell apart.

Bredjeg is never mentioned anywhere else apart from this Veldang myth. The Sky Wars mentioned appear to have seen Tolat and Lorion on the same side, united against Bredjeg.

Lorion's rise occurred after the birth of the stars, instigated by Umaths path of destruction through the eight planetary sons (and daughters) of Yelm.

The only cognate in Genertelan myth would be Umath clashing with Tolat; Orlanth invading the sky, then going to Hell on the LBQ; or the invasion of Tyram the Sky Terror (which the Orlanthi claim Orlanth ended, rather than the Red Planet god).

This creates a problem with the sequence of Godswar events, though - the Zaranistangi and Veldang are supposed to appear only after Orlanth's conquest of the Sky, and long after Umath's attack on the Eight Planetary Sons (all but one - who instead went into the Pit - of whom went to Hell, and only some came back).

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Artmali then have a conflict of some time with Oabil.  Sor (Guide p572) on the isle of Kanem Dar was probably founded at this time.  Other parts of Fonrit remained under Artmali control but they were unable to expel the Vadeli conquerors from Kanem Dar.  The Vadeli have been here since the flood so this conflict will occur early in the middle Storm Age.

Still the maps show Oabil as south of the Fense mountains, and Chir north of it, and west of the Jungle. Poto and Chir are mentioned in the Vadeli chapter, while Oabil is the Pamaltelan term, so I would assume Poto to be identical with the Oabil in the maps.

The absence of the floods is what makes Fonrit so difficult. The Sevasbos Sea is described as a host of sea gods led by Serelazam, but it shows no expansion between the Middle and the Late Storm Age, and only the Great Torrent preceding the Breaking of the World finally drowns the interim Thinobutan exodus lands.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Afati's conquest then begins.  Afati is said to be from decadent Tishamto which is said to be after its conquest by Kungatu (RM p65).  So this is some time after its founding.  Now the key puzzle here is that Afati conquers the southern part of the Artmali Empire with the gloss that Southern means that it was south of the wall mountains.  At first sight, the wall mountains refers to the Fense (Mari, Tarmo and Palarki). 

This does indeed conflict with the assumed long-lived empire of the Indigo Conqueror, but I thought that Afati might have intervened in a succession struggle after Jarkaru's demise, and temporarily have conquered Kungatu and Mondator before moving north. Not dissimilar from Sheng conquering Kralorela, then bringing lots of Kralori to continue his conquests of Peloria while remaining absent from the East for long times. (But then we don't have too many details of what either Sheng or the Lunars did in that war. Fortunate Succession is possibly our best source besides the Guide, and that's meagre in details compared to the place mentions in the Guide.)

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

But that refers to Kungatu which can't be right (Kungatu just conquered Tishamto which in turn in conquering the northern portion of Kungatu?!?).  Then it struck me.  The Wall Mountains being referred to is the mountain range that runs from the Tarmo in the southwest to Kareeshtu in the northeast.  Afati is hence conquering the region south of this mountain range being the Baruling Valley, Tarahorn and Laskal!  Support for this comes from the name of Afati-Tal (Guide p568) a recent and deceased foe of the Pulajeg Empire.  So the original Fonritans are Agimori from Tishamto who moved northwards in the middle Storm Age to avoid continued rule by Kungatu. 

The Agimori of Laskal and Baruling, the parts of Fonrit without any Veldang population? I agree that this survives a shave with Occam's Razor.

I would guess that Afati would be an inherited name rather than a presumed identity with the Storm Age immortal leader. I find it rather hard to imagine a non-drinker going diving.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

This also resolves the vexed issue of Mondator being a name for Fonrit (Guide p561) yet is placed wouth of the Fense in the mythic maps (Guide p688).  The God Learners knew the name and that it lay south of the mountains.  But they got confused by the mountains being referred to and so put Mondator in the wrong place.

It still leaves the issue with the yellow elf forest stretching all the way from north of the Spike to Dinal. Pamalt's countermove against Vovisibor may have used the devastation left by Filth-Which-Walks, but otherwise those forests should have been impenetrable.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The last section supposedly refers to the Oabil and the Genjeran remants ganging up on the Fonritans.  Afati's people could be described as the New Artmali (in that they were forced to take up Artmali customs) but I think the usage odd.  In any case it doesn't really matter as five wicked shamans/sorcerors/whatever killed Kendalamar to create Vovisibor. 

Those Five Evil Ones get one mention, on RM p.51. P.66 states that Vovisibor had been called by Bolongo,  who was killed by it.

The Pamaltelans have no account of how the Sun Emperor died, only that he went down into the Underworld. Apparently that's the "*Bijiif" who fathered Chermata and Veldara on Enjata-Mo.

Does Kendamalar have to get a different set of conspirators than Yelm? Mother Pujaleg and Tolat should be a sufficient Pamaltelan contribution.

 

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Vovisibor wasn't really an invader as he came from Fonrit.  

So what was he?

Filth Which Walks could be a Vadeli, or a Vadeli creation. It doesn't have to be Vadel, although Vadel's journeys into Bamatela rhyme with the many encounters Pamalt had with Vovisibor before.

 

35 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I can't see a source for fonrit as Vovisibor's origin.

Fonrit is the surviving part of Baraku, the Spike Lands. The magics that shaped Fonrit also plagued the rest of "Selvukko", the lands north of the Fense, and we know that Artmali and possibly Vadeli influence hurt the Thinobutans.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Those Five Evil Ones get one mention, on RM p.51. P.66 states that Vovisibor had been called by Bolongo,  who was killed by it.

Out of context this sounds remarkably similar to the strange story of Malkion the Sacrifice. If the specifics differ, I wonder how they differ. Otherwise, sudden new light on what orthodox God Learners saw behind the bolongo mask and why this god received special treatment as a rune holder. (Carry on with what you're doing please.)

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Sorry about hijacking this thread about Pamaltela resources on the web... maybe it has the potential to become one in itself.

I think it's deep enough to go to a new thread.