Combat and Opposed Rolls

[Nightshade]

Yeah. Honestly, the power system is the court of last resort for solutions to this sort of thing. The problem is that BRP doesn't typically handle distinctions like this that well. The easy way would be to have separate skills for the higher order more scientific forms of weapon training, but there's two problems with it:

1. Vanilla BRP doesn't deal with differences in difficulty of learning skills, so you end up with everyone migrating to those to the degree its possible because they're no harder to learn or increase than their cruder equivelents;

2. There's not a lot of crossover benefit to learning related skills in BRP so you're starting completely over with the "martial" skills (you can make some argument that there are sometimes issues of "unlearning" some bad habits that can come up, but I don't think that says that there's no benefit to prior training at all).

[frogspawner]

1. Vanilla BRP doesn't deal with differences in difficulty of learning skills...

My houserule is, in addition to skills of normal difficulty to learn (+3/+d6 per increase), some are easy to learn (+4/+d6+1), some hard (+2/+d6-1) and some very hard (+1/+d6-2).

[kaddawang]

From a non-mechanic point of view: If a character gains access to training and can afford it, (s)he can gain, for instance, 2 ranks of the defencepower. It would not be represented by a skill, it would be a full-flegded special ability. The character may be required to sacrifice a POW-point or two, maybe get a facial tattoo, identifying him as a member of the cult of Tekelili-Meep, or whatever.

It would not really be that much different than the same character getting a magic item, granting the same powers.

[Nightshade]

My houserule is, in addition to skills of normal difficulty to learn (+3/+d6 per increase), some are easy to learn (+4/+d6+1), some hard (+2/+d6-1) and some very hard (+1/+d6-2).

That's the approach I prefer (and it helps with this situation since you can kick up the difficulty of the more sophisticated "martial" skills) but its not a tool people using vanilla BRP have.

[Thalaba]

I'd love to see BRP get a proper treatment on MA. I don't know what that treatment would be, or else I'd suggest a Monograph to Chaosium. I think that if BRP is going to be truly a universal system, it will eventually need a comprehensive MA treatment.

(brainstorming here)

If I was to run a game with MA as an emphasis, I would probably create a variety of MA skills with setting specific names for a variety of weapons. Each would be a separate skill, trainable and researchable, but not experienceable ('scuse my word). Thus the player who wanted to learn Quaterstaff would take the Quarterstaff skill (treated like any other skill) and then take one or more of a selection of skills such as 'Leaping Grasshopper' or 'Drunken Windmill' or 'Whipping Branch'. In combat, he would roll on his skill as normal to make an attack. If he also rolled under the specific MA skill, he could add that effect (leaping grasshopper turns the attack into a kick, adding special knockback effect, Drunken Windmill allows an extra attack in that round at double fatigue cost, whipping branch adds 1D3 damage, or whatever).

Alternatively, one could dispense with the quarterstaff skill and treat all three MA skills as normal skills (all of which happen to use the same weapon). This is a bit simpler, but you would have to address the experience vs. training thing in a different manner, like saying that one must alternate between experience and training, or something, if such a thing was important to you.

I would also allow MA techniques for ranged weapons, like the 'Mongol Foot Bow' technique which gives extra range but requires the archer to be prone when making his shot.

Now, I'm no martial arts expert, so this treatment would probably satisfy me. It might not satisfy people who are more into iMAs, but I'll let them speak for themselves.

Thalaba

[frogspawner]

That's the approach I prefer (and it helps with this situation since you can kick up the difficulty of the more sophisticated "martial" skills) but its not a tool people using vanilla BRP have.

And I rate MA as "very hard", naturally! BTW - does anyone use vanilla BRP?

[kaddawang]

If martial arts are only used in conjuction with unarmed attacks, in a setting that doesn't emphasize it, it works fine. A good roll grants you extra damage. Quick and easy.

If you want details... The japanese art of Kukishin Ryu is a battlefield art, focusing on polearms, spears, swords, staffs and truncheon. all while wearing full body armor(quite heavy). Compare it with the animal Kung Fu-styles, most of which focuses on movement;leaping, rolling and flurry of attacks. Very different in the choice of weapons, movement and tactics. Throw in the western boxer, and the armored medieval knight(both as much martial artists as the easterners), and things become more difficult to represent with a single generic skill.

If you use different skills, representing different techniques, the boxer will be superior, as he only needs 2 skills: "bob and weave" and "hit really hard". The samurai needs to master 6 different weapons, and then pick up the specific martial arts skills for each. Hardly seems fair.

[frogspawner]

If you use different skills, representing different techniques, the boxer will be superior, as he only needs 2 skills: "bob and weave" and "hit really hard". The samurai needs to master 6 different weapons, and then pick up the specific martial arts skills for each. Hardly seems fair.

Ummm - but if the boxer came up against the samurai, who would your money be on?

...things become more difficult to represent with a single generic skill.

For successful Martial Arts with whatever weapon, rather than extra (double) damage, I give an extra attack. How's that?

[kaddawang]

Ummm - but if the boxer came up against the samurai, who would your money be on?

For successful Martial Arts with whatever weapon, rather than extra (double) damage, I give an extra attack. How's that?

A boxer vs a samurai in a fistfight.. I'll bet on the boxer:D

An extra attack is rather neat. But the nightstick(dmg 1d6)-wielding martial artist isnt going to do that much against a opponent in riotarmor that can soak up the extra attack. But is is a nice way of representing a style focusing on speed, for instance.

If we look at it another way; a character with, say a brawl-skill of 90%. That's a 18% chance of a special(more damage + stun). The additional 1d3 damage gained from the martialarts-skill on a special hit would be ..well, not that cool. The Special-result alone would probably finish the fight.

The one advantage gained from martial arts would be a bit more damage done, if the special was parried, reducing it to a normal hit. Which is a good thing.

But applying double damage to weapons will be messy. Literally:)

I'm nitpicking and not offering solutions here, but i want to see what people might think about this.

[dragonewt]

A boxer vs a samurai in a fistfight.. I'll bet on the boxer:D

What about aiki-jujutsu?

But the nightstick(dmg 1d6)-wielding martial artist isnt going to do that much against a opponent in riotarmor that can soak up the extra attack. But is is a nice way of representing a style focusing on speed, for instance.

Most armour will not protect against a joint lock or break.

Edited March 18, 2009 by dragonewt

[soltakss]

The trouble with the Martial Arts skill is that it is far too generic.

Different schools of martial arts use different techniques and are good in different situations.

A friend of mine is a Black Belt at Judo and says that given almost any foe on a concrete floor and he would beat them within seconds. Another friend has studied various types of Kung Fu and says that he would keep someone who uses Judo at a distance.

Someone using unarmed combat will use different techniques and skills to someone using armed combat. Even Grapple/Fist/Kick/Head Butt comes nowhere near to proper martial arts, including wrestling and boxing.

I'd treat the Martial Arts skill as a knowledge skill showing you the best ways to strike, the best places to strike, the best ways to block and dodge. It should be usable with any form of close combat, and potentially missile combat, and should apply to weapons as well as unarmed combat.

To model other martial art techniques, you would need new skills, new Legendary Abilities (ported over from RQM) and so on, probably a whole load for each type of martial art. That way, each school would teach its own abilities and special skills, some would be common to different schools and some would be specific to one school.

[Al.]

What about aiki-jujutsu?

Several of my AiKiDo Sensei rate western boxing very highly as a method self-defence. Now AiKiDo obviously not = AiKiJuiJutsu but the hard techniques derive from it. And I'm inclined to take their views seriously.

Most armour will not protect against a joint lock or break.

No indeed, one of the reasons that Gami-Uchi developed as a grappling technique so that when one's sword was lost or broken one had a chance of actually defending against an armed and armoured foe

[personal view]

Simulating MA in BRP requires one of two approaches

1. As broad and abstract as possible

2. Super detailed

For the later MRQ legendary abilities, LoN Ki skills, lists of appropriate strikes and weapons which each martial art can boost and so on seem necessary

For myself I prefer the former

either broadening the Elric! route once skill exceeds 100% gain an extra damage die (or an extra attack as frogspawner suggests although I probably would not use that but instead the old splitting attacks over 100% rule)

i.e. Mushashi with (conjectural) 200% Sword either rolls 2d10+1 damage for one perfectly timed attack at 200% or 1d10+1 for each of 2 alomst perfect 100% attacks or 1d10+1 for 4 imperfect 50% attacks

or having a single 'Melee' skill and then a range of 'Martial Arts' with a list of which strikes/techniques get an extra die of damage or attack upon a successful use

i.e. Mushashi with (again completely conjectural) 150% Melee and 50% KenJutsu would only get his extra damage die if his player rolls under BOTH KenJutsu and Melee. However he might gain the benefit of a second attack at full skill if he makes his KenJutsu roll and GM was using frogspawner's rule. If using standard split-attack rules then he could make 3 strikes each at 50% and I would argue full Kenjutsu score. If forced to use a Yari then he wouldn't get a bonus damage die or potential extra attack

Clear? Not really I suspect

[/personal view]

Al

Edited March 18, 2009 by Al.

[dragonewt]

Several of my AiKiDo Sensei rate western boxing very highly as a method self-defence. Now AiKiDo obviously not = AiKiJuiJutsu but the hard techniques derive from it. And I'm inclined to take their views seriously.

Akikido evolved from Aiki-jujutsu. Aiki-jujutsu includes techniques for grappling and controlling an armoured opponent.

Aiki-jujutsu - Wikipedia

In tests where wrestlers fought against boxers (both western versions), only one of the boxers won. The only boxer that won had previous wrestling experience (Sorry, I don't have the reference for that).

[Al.]

Akikido evolved from Aiki-jujutsu. Aiki-jujutsu includes techniques for grappling and controlling an armoured opponent.

Aiki-jujutsu - Wikipedia

In tests where wrestlers fought against boxers (both western versions), only one of the boxers won. The only boxer that won had previous wrestling experience (Sorry, I don't have the reference for that).

Sure sure. I have a feeling that we are having a 'not really an argument' argument. Certainly O-Sensei took hard techniques (be they strikes, grapples or weapon techniques) from AikiJuiJutsu in his quest to unify martial arts with agriculture.

And I have no doubt that competent wrestlers have whooped competent boxers.

But ......... (and no maligning your level of knowledge and skill, you may be the greatest proponent of this or any other age) my Senseis have according respect to pragmatic western boxing techniques, conditioning and drills (whilst decrying the lack of philosphy, empathy and higher degree of awareness)

Al

[dragonewt]

The trouble with the Martial Arts skill is that it is far too generic.

I agree. Although it does depend on the granularity of skills used for a given instance of a game. For example, where many detailed skills are used (sword, axe, spear, maul; pistol, rifle, SMG; numerous sciences; numerous medical disciplines, etc...) compared to where simpler skill sets used (melee weapons, guns; 'science'; 'medicine').

The nature of the martial art skill(s) should match the detail used for other skills.

For example, the level of skill detail I normally use is more detailed.

So instead of "melee weapons", I would have: sword, axe, spear,etc..

In that case I would divide up martial arts into generalized groups or concepts, eg:

ground fighting (BJJ style), throwing (judo), 'controlling' (aikido, chi na), joint locks (aikido, jujutsu), blocking/neutralizing (wing chun, aikido), atemi/strike (karate, taekwondo).

These are just some rough ideas I came up with now. Although this is similar to one way martial arts are handled in HERO system (which are extra moves you can do based on a combat skill).

The nature of a given art might determine the rate at which these skills are raised, given the types of techniques that are focused on. A person learning one style of karate might learn 'strike' 70% of the time, and maybe some throws or joint locks 30% of the time. Some versions of Eagle Claw Kung Fu might learn strikes, joint locks and throws at a 33% ratio each.

If I was running a more 'rules light' BRP game, I might just use 'martial arts' to cover everything, in the same way I would use 'guns' and 'melee weapons' to abstract a larger set of skills.

Edited March 18, 2009 by dragonewt

[dragonewt]

But ......... (and no maligning your level of knowledge and skill, you may be the greatest proponent of this or any other age) my Senseis have according respect to pragmatic western boxing techniques, conditioning and drills (whilst decrying the lack of philosphy, empathy and higher degree of awareness)Al

You are right, what matters is mind-set and intent.

I think that today a lot of the arts have softened from a mental point of view. Many boxers (I generalise) are geared to punch your lights out quickly, and so maintain a 'simpler' effectiveness. However, if an aikido practitioner had the same mind set to intercept quickly with effort, then that advantage would be nullified.

The irony is that the concept of "aiki" concerns interception.

[Nightshade]

And I rate MA as "very hard", naturally! BTW - does anyone use vanilla BRP?

Well, even if they don't, there's the problem that the variants used aren't going to be all the same, and I can't expect that too many are using something like the RQ:AIG skill difficulties (which you obviously are, and I probably would be were I running any BRP). So at best we can talk about the standard optionals in conjunction with general use, and even that's pushing it.