Damage caused by armour

[Agentorange]

In the weapons section of BRP we have the Cestus ( described as being like metallic boxing gloves ) and also brass knuckles, now do you think it's resonable to suppose that someone wearing armour should get the equivalent attack damage if they punch an unarmoured character? Say: brass knuckle damage for chainmail, ring mail etc and Cestus damage for someone in full plate?

More to the point how much damage would someone being hit by powered armour sustain. I know it says that you get +6 STR whilst wearing powered armour so a punch attack backed up by damage bonus could be effective, but it seems to me that the armour itself is also a weapon , the sheer impact of having a load of power backed metal or ceramic armour slammed into your face has got to be equivalent to being hit with a club or mace in my opinion, any thoughts ?

[RosenMcStern]

A mace is swung, not thrust, against an opponent, so it adds considerable momentum to the attack. A heavy gauntlet can have the same effect of a cestus, but it is not specifically designed for it. I would go for +1 to punch damage for plate gauntlets, +2 for special armor like powered armor (which also increases damage bonus). But I would also assign the Physical skill penalty to the Brawl skill of anyone who did not specifically train to brawl in heavy armor.

[Agentorange]

My own personal feeling is that you're looking at more damage from being hit by power armour, Ah well just a matter of opinion I guess. Totally agree about having to be trained to use power armour as a weapon without suffering some kind of penalty

[Sunwolfe]

Hope you guys don't mind the chime, but this topic has been something that I've pondered from time to time.

Back in the fourteenth century some knights just wanted to do more damage and the armorers were more than happy to turn their twisted minds to it. Turns out some fourteenth century gauntlets were designed with wicked little knuckle dusters called "gadlings". These babies were attached over the knuckles on a gauntlet and were shaped into all sorts of unsympathetic-to-human-flesh knobs. Edward the Black Prince for example, had them made into the shape of lion heads. I've see other examples designed in the shape of seriously mean and heavy points. I also understand that they were interchangeable so as to be replaced or upgraded to a new and more deadly or sexy shape should the wearer desire.

I've always thought that knights, at least during the periods where war was honestly their primary function, were seriously trained martial artists. Granted, it may not have been in the way Hollywood and television has corrupted our minds to think of "martial arts"--eastern influenced, CIA enhanced, hand to hand hai-ya--, but nonetheless these guys were not simply slipping the ol' steel skin on and rolling out for a session of "fear-my-mightiness"; they were deadly professionals who trained a good part of the day and "practiced" their skills on a regular basis. They could, in fact, do limited gymnastic-type moves, tempered of course by the limitations of their chosen armor style: roll, stand up quickly from a prone position, jump, jump off moving horses, mount quickly, (no silliness about "oh, no way...the armor weighed too much" crap--do your homework and read the research), stand on their hands, run, etc.

Because of this, I always considered anyone/player in my game being from a professionally trained class of warriors to have been trained in the uses and ins and outs of armor. They, as apposed to Peasant Joe with dreams of glory who finds the long dead knight decomposing under a pile of leaves in his back yard and dons the stinky armor before taking the high road of adventure, would have all the skills and such to use armor and all its features, both offensive and defensive. I give 'em pluses to their damage if they use their brawl skill to punch someone wearing a full metal gauntlet, maybe a little more when said gauntlet sports gadlings. I don't however have a separate skill for it as I'm trying to keep it simple because I've got a memory like a sieve; BTW who am I? :shocked:

The same would be true in my game if we were in our Sci-Fi mode. Love...LOVE...did I say LOVE?...John Steakly's Armor and of course, Star Ship Troopers--Heinlein's Star Ship Troopers, mind you! Not that travesty of a movie (second movie I ever walked out of and demanded my money back) that came out in the late 90—not a powered suit in sight and not a nuke via Y-rack launched! There I just assume it is a given that fellas sporting such mechanical marvels are specially trained to wear and operate them. They can grapple and chop-saki the hell out of the enemy with their grapple skill--especially if it is heavy combat power-assisted armor as apposed to scout armor, whereas some neophyte, should they even be able to find such an artifact that came remotely near to fitting, as these technological marvels are tailor made for the wearer, they would simply have no training an therefore use of their naked-skin grapple would at best be reduced to the look of a fumbling robot trying to mate...LOL. I’d give the trained professional a serious plus to damage, especially if the clank was power assisted.

I understand the referral to mace-type damage as it would be a serious “impact” type blow, kinda like a smashing-not-cutting hit one would get from a mace. I seem to recall that some maces had a wicked spiky point above where the flanges met on the central axis; I suppose it could be used to jab/punch but it doesn’t seem designed for such.

Getting training of course would help. In my games I have to admit few have ever got training in such things. As I write this I'm actually surprised to realize that most of the time my players are after information and end up further developing lore skills as they research, study and learn so as to get the skinny on a foe or, more likely, a cultural history that gives 'em a heads up on the ruins or tomb they are about to raid...hmmm :-T

Any way... with such I'd probably just allow them to resume part of their grapple/brawl/martial arts skill while in armor. I guess then they'd have two separate skills to keep track of until they equaled out .

Sorry if you guys feel I've jacked things...just my thoughts.

Cheers,

Sunwolfe

[Agentorange]

No apology needed, all thoughts definately wanted here. You've actually expressed my thoughts about mace type damage much better than i did myself. It's the whole notion of "impact" damage that I was striving for, and you've articulated that pretty well. There is a Japanese martial art technique ( can't remember the name ) which actually focuses on grappling and unarmed combat in armour, and how to use the armour itself as a weapon.

[Atgxtg]

My two cents.

I think a +1 is reasonable for an armored fist, but plate wouldn't be any more effective than mail for this. One drawback is that the increased mass does make the punches a bit slower, too. I'd give a penalty to punch skill, or let the character uses cestus skill if they have it.

Specialied gaultets (spiked,etc) could get cestus damage.

As for power armor, I'd say it should get the same adds as norn-powered armor. Power Armor would also benefit from the improved damage bonus (if any) derrived from the increase in STR (hey it is "powered" armor) and SIZ (I'd add the SIZ/ENC of the armor to the character's for things like calculating the damage bonus) they provide.