davecake

And it’s worth noting that while most of Arkats Orlanthi and Humakti followers felt betrayed, some of them stuck with him to the very end. Notably, Makla Mann was renowned for this, and is revered as the epitome of loyalty, and is still a widespread hero cult. He teaches Stop Resurrection, handing for fighting vampires but also those that might break their Humakti vows because they fear death. (if there is a place that an Arkati secret society would be hiding within the Humakt cult, this would be an obvious place, apart from the very nature of the sub-cult making it beyond suspicion, or so they say, right?)

You must be one of those Rokari, who only likes the Sharp Abiding Book that you there is one way to do things. In the true Abiding Book, Malkion only recommends fish, he does not mandate it, and he blesses the relish, that are foods might contain a variety of flavors and bring us joy. (both actually in the Abiding Book according to RM, and that’s actually the second way I’ve found to work Malkion blessing the relish into the Malkioni world view, as I think it is also a refutation of those who would practice asceticism in the name of Logic). Though Logic dictates hygiene and rejection of foods that are known to be inimical, or imbalance in consumption, I do not think it rejects choice and flavor. (The Furlandan school is a big influence on Loskalmi culture, and though ostensibly about defending against demons, has a great deal of practical advice about hygiene. I think of Loskalm physical culture as quite Scandinavian, mixed with Plato’s Republic of course, a fondness for indoor gymnasiums with saunas).

The classifications of the Mostali caste are not a classification of the elements of the world (obviously), but of the tools used to repair it. But this does indicate a Mostali unfamiliarity with a post-Storm cosmology, and how to use Storm effectively? They do seem to use bellows though (and, you know, breathe).

Chaos before the cosmos, or outside it, is not evil or inimical. One way to reconcile this is a sort of militant mysticism - Chaos is good if it remains outside the Cosmos, and you should seek contact with the Void by transcending mortality, but evil and inimical when it leaks into the cosmos. This seems a kind of Kralorelan approach. But that seems a bit of a glib answer to the implied question of Arkat’s motivation. Chaos is both Kajabor (entropy) and Wakboth (moral evil). To struggle against Kajabor is the condition of mortality, is life, but to hope to destroy it is delusional. The answer to Kajabor is Rashorans answer, to cease to fear the Great Fear. But instead to take that fear and encourage it, to use it as a weapon for empower one’s hatred, that is Wakboth, that is the true root of moral evil, and it must be destroyed, because otherwise it will spread and destroy all. Arkats core philosophy can be understood as, at the core (though of course he goes past this point) as Humakt post-Rashoran - we must accept entropy and death and reconcile ourselves and not fear the Great Fear, but we must destroy those who succumb to moral evil, and embrace the Great Fear for their own greed, ambition and hatred. And Gbaji embraces those who do that, and must be destroyed. ETA: the Mostali probably do think that they should eventually eliminate entropy, but it’s a very late stage in repair of the World Machine.

Everything I've ever seen suggests the Gold Wheel Dancers are their own independent race. But they certainly aren't Brithini. The idea that Gold Wheel Dancers are beings made of living Gold, and thus predate the death of Stone etc could work pretty well, though! Or that they have similar powers of self-transformation as Diamond Dwarves, that by transforming parts of themselves into useful tools Diamond Dwarves are just partially emulating the Gold Wheel Dancers, who can transform their entire selves into useful tools. The question then becomes why aren't there ancient races of other living metals! Maybe not all wheels, but beings of living Quicksilver or Lead or Copper?

Regardless of their nature, they only co-existed for a short time, with Ginkizzie only being born after most of the great deeds of Pavis and Ginkizzie were over, and Flintnail departing soon after (unless there is a conspiracy theory here that Flintnail did not depart, but is secretly still around, perhaps in the Room Without Doors).

The dwarves equivalent to angle grinders is the various Cut spells. Cut Stone takes a point of POW, but it affects 1 cubic meter of stone per point of strength at a time, and lets it be rapidly divided up into pieces. With a decent bit of ritual work and support, that easily goes through many tons of stone at a time.

"Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water". They are just chopping wood, and carrying water, and so on.

In a thread about Flintnail and Pavis: I have a personal theory that the Revelations of Now, the rules that Zzabur created that set the rules for the Brithini that made them unaging and set caste law, are not just a set of rules for social behaviour but a giant spell to make the original Malkioni of Danmalastan into imitations of the Dwarves, with the strict caste lifestyle acting like a great lifelong ritual to maintain it (in both cases). As usual for Zzabur, there is a fair bit of hubris and misunderstanding (Zzabur is perfect intellect, but misunderstands the significance of emotion, instinct, and the condition of mortality, among other things). He sees mortality as Error, and attempts to eliminate it from his people, and he sees all other sources of knowledge than his own way as sources of Error, so puts those like himself in charge (rather than the dwarf path of all castes being equal). But one of his several mistakes is to greatly misunderstand individuality (he predates it!), and so his rigid rules of right behaviour are also used by the Vadeli who follow its specifics but reject its intent, and everything goes wrong. The Vadeli being living evidence of Zzabur's mistake is why he hates them so much (most other he regards with condescension and pity, not hate). The Mostali also have difficulty dealing with individuality within their philosophy, and ultimately for similar reasons, but its far worse for the Brithini, as Zzabur introduced the idea of hierarchy, and also confronting and correcting Error, so making their society less stable. The modern Malkioni don't accept either the idea that its a specific spell and an attempt to change who the Brithini are, or that its inspired by the (obviously false) Mostali way, and concentrate on the idea of Zzabur as rational (if not moral) exemplar, treating caste law as just a set of rules for right behaviour (though somewhat outdated ones to the Hrestoli). I also like the corollary to this theory, which is that the Rokari in particular have no idea what they are doing, and so are ultimately doomed to failure. (from this general perspective, Nysalor as born after the Great Darkness does understand the nature of individuality, but as a god not mortality, so gets things very wrong as well, Arkat has enough insight to begin to truly understand both, as does the Red Goddess, who invents an entirely different scheme for overcoming the limits of mortality, by creating a world of Glamour that has different rules. )

If by 'fully initiated' you mean has died and then returned from the Underworld, yes. But I don't think that is normal initiation, but a heroquest (albeit one that is easier for a Kitori Shadowlord than others, as you don't have to fight your way out). But it still requires death and the destruction of the body, then returning from the Underworld with the expenditure of enough magical energy to create the body anew - I think its not just the visiting the underworld, but breaking the connection with the body, and recreating it, and in the process transcending formal mortality somewhat. Remembering most of the 'canonical' kaelith returned via a Lightbringers Quest. So, not every underworld quest makes you a kaelith, IMO, nor are the kaelith powers gained by everyone who qualifies. While the Xeotam dialogues seem to be regarded as an important (and canonical) source, that doesn't mean that everything within them is fully accurate, and we have no particular evidence of shapeshifting or disincorporation by Arkat, Harmast, or Talor. I think that shape changing is only between spells that they somehow have learned or earned a right to, so Arkat can't turn into a troll before he undergoes rebirth. Hsunchen would have more than one natural shape though. And Arkat does seem to have the power to have more than one body when he kills Kwaratch Kwang.

I have a personal theory that the Revelations of Now, the rules that Zzabur created that set the rules for the Brithini that made them unaging, are not just a set of rules but a giant spell to make the original Malkioni of Danmalastan into imitations of the Dwarves, with the strict caste lifestyle acting like a great lifelong ritual to maintain it (in both cases). As usual for Zzabur, there is a fair bit of hubris and misunderstanding (Zzabur is perfect intellect, but misunderstands the significance of emotion, instinct, and the condition of mortality, among other things). He sees mortality as error, and attempts to eliminate it from his people, and he sees all other sources of knowledge than his own way as sources of Error, so puts those like himself in charge. But one of his several mistakes is to greatly misunderstand individuality (he predates it!), and so his rigid rules of right behaviour are also used by the Vadeli who follow its specifics but reject its intent, and everything goes wrong. The Vadeli being living evidence of Zzabur's error is why he hates them so much (most other he regards with condescension and pity, not hate). The Mostali also have difficulty dealing with individuality within their philosophy, and for similar reasons, but its far worse for the Brithini, as Zzabur introduced the idea of hierarchy, and also confronting and correcting Error, so making their society less stable. The modern Malkioni don't accept either the idea that its a specific spell and attempt to change who the Brithini are, or that its taken from the Mostali way, and concentrate on the idea of Zzabur as rational (if not moral) exemplar. [Crossposting to the Dumbest theory thread]

The difference between heretic and apostate is the more important question, I think (and it may be so for Brithini too). Heresy is disagreement with the Orthodox Decamony, but disagreement that is known to be valid as far as maintaining dwarf agelessness goes - it is a disagreement of philosophy and policy, but not of the fundamental nature of Mostali life. Apostasy, however, is departure from the Mostali way in practice, and results in aging. There may be degrees of apostasy - some apostates may still be very long live by human standards - but it's not clear into which category the Flintnail dwarves fall (they are certainly at least OpenHandist heretics, and seem to have some Individualist leanings too, at least in their beliefs about the afterlife). They seem to maintain caste restrictions, which is one big issue. And another issue is use of non-Mostali magic - I think general sorcery is fine, though frowned on by conservatives (and Silver dwarves do use a wider variety of sorcery than most dwarves), but spirit magic and Rune magic supposedly are not - whether using Pavis Rune magic is enough to make Flintnail dwarves apostate and aging is another open question. Of course Ginkizzie seems to be unaging and a Priest of Pavis, but Ginkizzie is, once again, an exception. Personally, I think it is possible to be an Individualist and non-apostate, but that Individualism often leads dwarves to follow individual paths into apostasy. Those Individualist dwarves who remain part of Mostali society, and do not learn inappropriate magics, are mere heretics, and such things as greatly valuing the individual creative works created in their rest periods, aspiring to eventually change their work assignments, or attempting to understand non-dwarf thinking are compatible with the way of Mostal (much as conservatives disagree). But of course many eventually do such things as leave dwarf society, or practice worship. Also noting that Chark the Liberator, origin of the heresy, met Arkat and Arkat's knowledge is said to be the secret of the heresy makes me think that Individualism is, at its deep core, perhaps a form of Illumination, and that enables them to continue to receive the benefits of Mostals way while reaching outside of it with different magic etc. Maybe that is the true secret of Individualism, a form of Arkati Illumination.

Mold Stone is literally one of the caste spells for orthodox Rock Mostali, so I don't think it is anathema, though that's not quite full liquefaction, it certainly makes it very mutable. Carefully applied Change is definitely part of the Orthodox Mostali world view, not anathema, they are even proud of it - the mythic contest of Changing ability of Quicksilver versus Vadrus for example. Usually Mostali seem to liquefy rock and metal through the simple method of the application of enormous amounts of heat, though the Flintnail cult does not seem to have access to this (not having any Brass dwarves etc).

I assumed their excavation magic was basically earth elementals, and maybe Jolanti with big wheelbarrows and shovels and mauls and mattocks, myself. Note that Earth elementals can pulverise rock. It certainly seems almost all the Flintnail magic is Mostali Maker magic (ie special dwarf sorcery), except maybe what magic ranking members get from Pavis as associate members of that cult (which may be as little as use of the City Harmony spell etc). The most unusual thing is that they seem to use mostly Rock mostali magic (cutting, carving, and building with stone and rock), but elementals and such (elementals, Jolanti, and other dwarven creatures) also seem to be connected to Flintnail, but are Tin dwarf magic. Are the Fintnail cult using only Rock Mostali magic plus Pavis magic, or do they use spells from other castes? They certainly seem to be very based around the magic of the Faceless Stone Statue, which seems a giant Jolanti, but you don't need Tin Dwarf magic to use and command Jolanti, only to create one. Of the four rune spells that Flintnail cult had in RQ2 (Mold Stone, Shape Metal, Support, and Warrior of Stone) two are in RQG as 'Mostali Sorcery'. So Mold Stone is now Shape Stone (Rock dwarf), Support is now Stabilize Stone (Rock Dwarf). But in RQG it seems there will be no Shape Metal, instead multiple Shape <metal> spells, with Shape Iron as an example (an Iron Dwarf spell) - it would be interesting to know which metals the Flintnail cult can work with (Is Shape Bronze available to all castes, as there is no Bronze caste? Does the Fintnail cult know how to magically work with Brass, Gold, Silver, Copper, and especially Iron? Probably not). Warrior of Stone in RQ2 is a spell that puts an Earth elemental into a pre-prepared statue, but its temporal - so perhaps the Fiintnail cult are experts at the Rock dwarf role in Jolanti creation (creating the Rock body), but can not replicate the true process of creating a true Jolanti (not surprising, it requires a Tin caste Diamonddwarf, plus equipment like a huge iron vat). I would guess that in RQG it would be like other Maker magic - a sorcery spell, with duration determined in the normal sorcery way (so potentially quite long), but requiring one point of POW per casting. But it being about commanding elementals suggests it would be a Tin dwarf spell? Also, where does the Flintnail cult get the elementals, as summoning Elementals is Tin Dwarf magic, and while in RQ2 it was Rune Magic, I don't think Flintnail has its own Rune magic in RQG (only access to Rune Magic via Pavis, and Pavis doesn't have much either, certainly not access to elementals larger than small). If we follow the HeroQuest Glorantha writeup in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure for both Pavis and Flintnail, both cults are primarily sorcerous (Flintnail almost entirely so). If I had to guess, there would be a bit less emphasis on sorcery in the RQG Pavis writeup, but presuming there is still some sorcerous knowledge in the Pavis cult, perhaps it is the case that in addition to Mostali Maker magic, some Fiintnail cultists have learnt enough human sorcery to learn how to summon Earth elementals? Perhaps their sorcerous knowledge is limited to eg mastering the Earth Rune, and such spells as Summon Earth Elemental, Dominate Earth Elemental, Bind Earth Elemental? There aren't many Earth sorcery spells (Create Sensation is not that useful without other Illusion spells, Geomancy seems plausible, Neutralise Earth not very useful unless they wish to fight Earth cults, Enhance Con I guess?). Though Earth would give access to its minor runes of Darkness and Fire. It makes sense that even with access to sorcery from the Pavis cult, they would know very limited sorcery (apart from dwarf general dwarf resistance to learning anything new), as the Pavis sorcery is EWF era magic and written in Auld Wyrmish, and almost extinct now, and quite disconnected from the Western sorcery mainstream (it would take someone highly skilled in both languages, and both traditions, to translate spells). Dwarf sorcery is traditionally Stasis, if they did have access to Stasis Rune sorcery that might include spells such as Castback and Neutralise Armor, but I don't recall any mention anywhere of Mostali having access to that sort of magic. If we take the Pavis: GTA writeup as true (as there exist finished docs for Robin Laws Pavis and Big Rubble books, Chaosium presumably knows the answers, but I don't) the main Grimoire (whatever a grimoire means in RQG), the Book of The Faceless King, has the Stasis and Harmony Runes, though, so there is some connection, Stasis rune mastery isn't implausible at all. And Pavis is associated with the Man Rune (which gives such spells as Dominate (Humanoid), Speak to Mind, and Tap Body, though only Speak to Mind seems very likely a Pavis cult spell). The Book of the Faceless King contains a few known spells - Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach, which is actually (despite the poetic name) something very much like Neutralise Darkness, just targeting an area not a person (super handy against trolls), Harmony of the Parts (suppresses Passions like Logical Clarity or Solace of the Logical Mind, though presumably with completely different Runes and main effect), and the spell to enter and leave the Room Without Doors where Pavis lives. The very basis of the Grimoire appears to originate in investigation of the magic of the Faceless Stone Statue, so presumably the Flintnail cult was heavily involved, so it seems likely senior Flintnail members might understand it well. It is supposed to contain a number of other spells too. There are other grimoires and spells described in the HeroQuest Pavis cult. The Book of Treaties is summoning the various small elementals may have reverted to being Rune magic? It would not be very useful as sorcery spells in RQG. The Alchemical Wedding of Lord Pavis, a Harmony magic grimoire, is not described as its spells go (and the only RQG Harmony spell described is Mend Flesh, which doesn't seem very appropriate) - I'd keep it as an ancient secret of the Pavis cult that barely anyone today understands, maybe magic for dealing with EWF magic to recreate/heroquest to the Green/Golden age. And the Book of the Original Man, while containing (non-magical?) greetings to elves and dwarves, and presumably parts of the rituals that keep the Flintnail dwarves and elves of the Garden friendly to Pavis, and at least occasional civil dealings with the trolls, also contains the rituals to allow breeding between different Man rune species (not AFAIK used since the birth of Ginkizzie in Pavis's time, so may require hero quest level great rituals). While allegedly penned by Lord Pavis, obviously some similar magic was used at the conception of Pavis himself (a half-elf) himself, so the spells likely in part or total predate Pavis. So after that very long digression (sorry, that simple question about what sort of construction magic was easy on the surface, but got a brain dump of everything about Flintnail and Pavis possible magic to answer thoroughly) I'd say the Flintnail cult excavation and construction magic is mostly Mostali Maker magic of the Rock caste, and they use Earth elementals (both directly, and to animate statues). We have no definite information either way as whether they use Tin dwarf magic or other sorcery to deal with Earth elementals, but using adapted human sorcery is quite plausible, and seems less problematic than the cult having access to Tin dwarf magic, as senior Flintnail cult members will have access to broader sorcery via the Pavis cult, including all manner of odd sorcery beyond Mostali magic, but still limited as Pavis sorcery is weird.

While it is played for light humour, I've definitely enjoyed their appearance in Sandheart. While a throwaway joke, they've proved far too much fun for my Sandheart game, and there are many references to the 'three beans' (the party are united in approval of the first and second beans, but divided over the third.

Personally, I put Arkats shapechanging down to him being a kaelith, someone who has returned after dying and descending to the Underworld. One of the few canonical examples, along with Talor, Jonat and Harmast. A common power possessed by them is changing form (according to the Xeotam dialogues, anyway). I'm sure there are people who believe Arkat to have returned as Gbaji, but I'm also sure it's not (and probably will never be) unequivocally stated in a canon source. You can believe what you want.

But this the correct type of reasoning, instead of this absurd stuff about very tiny little animals and such. Personally I believe that the process of digestion may certainly in some ways have a function similar to a sacrificial fire. Not associated with Intellect, of course - but perhaps in the nature of Heat without Light (no one would associate Lodril with Intellect).

So, an elephant and a snake are very closely related shapes? That look very similar?

I think the most important thing to understand about the Kralorelan Empire is that almost everything about is a carefully maintained lie.

My point is that, regardless of the abstract ultimate truth of such a statement (which like most such assertions, comes down to nitpicking definitions), by saying so you have: rendered your use of the term essentially useless for facilitating any form of discussion and you have rendered your use of the term clearly different to the way in which essentially everyone else uses. You’ve also used forms of argument to arrive there that are essentially counter to Gloranthan cosmology in its entirety (mitochondria? Runes are not distinct but always overlapping? Are you next going to explain how Darkness is just an absence of fire, how life requires oxygen, how metals are different elements? ) to essentially produce a private use of the terms. Like 👏👏👏 for intellectual maneuver, but is there an actual point achieved by this?

Is a Form, which isn’t the same as a shape, though loosely related. Man is associated with a specific loose shape, but Beast (for example) includes variety of different limb arrangements (which maybe the case here if it includes Wyrms, wyverns, etc). I’d still put as a Condition Rune, partly because it’s fits nowhere else, and partly because that’s where most weird magic stuff goes. But we won’t really know how it fits into RQG until we see the relevant cult writeups I guess. I don’t think that all those have to exist in any practical or extant form - I can’t think of any Draconic Plants - but more or less. We can find examples, or plausible examples, of some of them, such as the Amethyst Dragon of Greater Chaos, the Path of Immanent Mastery, the Dragon Hsunchen, etc. I think a dragonewt can be considered to always have the and to have the rune as it long as it has the ability to use Dragon Magic - ie is at least Beaked, and has not fallen off the Dragon path. But that could be approached differently in the rules (it might make more sense to denote human use of Dragonewt magic (such as the EWF) by the Dragonewt rune, and use the rune differently). I don’t think that form runes are strongly associated with shapes in the general case, only for Man (which is specifically noted a bunch of places). Beast and Plant vary widely, Dragonewts may or may not have wings (and if Wyrms and wyverns count, that’s a lot of variation), Spirit is more or less defined by not having a (permanent) shape, and Chaos is notoriously associated with vast variety of shapes, and gratuitous inconsistency of shape. I personally think that the Man and Beast runes represented as Opposing Runes is a very messy concept that, while it initially works somewhat as a psychological concept, almost completely fails as a magical/metaphysical concept almost everywhere it gets used, and shows some pretty deep confusion. The Guide says the original owner was the Cosmic Dragon, same as it says for the Dragonewt rune, thus making it legitimately draconic at least. Presumably two approaches to the same original power? So it predates Daruda, in the sense of deep mythic origins, but yes, Daruda seems to be its first appearance of it manifest as a separate power.

Explicitly yes to both in the bestiary. Wyrms are the only creatures that routinely both speak and write Auld Wyrmish (dragonewts very seldom have any written language skills).

Indeed. Not only has it not been explicitly stated anywhere, it would be introducing the concept of a hybrid Form Rune, which also doesn’t seem to exist (a creature that seems to have two aspects of two Form runes (eg an Elf or a Baboon) just seems to have two Form Runes). So I don’t think so - though it’s interesting to know if magisaurs, wyrms, etc are considered to have the Dragonewt rune, and if the Dragonewt rune correlates to the ability to Speak Auld Wyrmish fluently and/naturally, and whether surgically altered humans count (which might just be a game system abstraction call). My current expectation is that the Trade rune won’t really be meaningful in RQG, just an artifact of the Issaries cult understanding of the world. And Issaries traders will have separate Harmony and Movement runes. But it might change. It’s the only ‘hybrid’ Power rune, and the only real hybrid rune in the game, and I think Jeff would rather it wasn’t part of any game system. By Godunya’s Guards here, assuming the Path of Immanent Mastery - the Guide definitely treats them as the same, though this is more ambiguous at other times. They are given the Man rune specifically in GoG, so I’d not say Beast (plus their method is the very human one of learning complex esoteric pseudo-intellectual babble). I agree it is magic descended from a God Learnerish understanding of dragon hsunchen. It’s notable though that the body transformed isn’t simply that of a dragonewt, but has some things in common with a dragonewt using Dragon magic, such as breathing fire and changing size. So though some would argue it’s a very flawed understanding of Dragon Magic, it might still be the correct rune (if it is indeed like the Dragon magic used by Dragonewts), the dragonewts would argue they are setting themselves back spiritually by using it, which they seek to do continuously for their entire lives). I think it’s more like the the POIM tried to skip becoming Dragonewtlike and just approximate it (Auld Wyrmish is incomprehensible, Charismatic Wisdom is incomprehensible, close enough, right?) without going through the difficult in between step of becoming a different kind of being in base form - they take a shortcut to a dragon body, changing their form without changing their Form. But the EWF method changes the Form (at least as far as Auld Wyrmish goes, anyway) before trying for Dragon Magic. Godunyas method, which is the fundamental underpinning of what we might call orthodox Darudism, tries to harness Dragon magic directly by changing soul without changing the body, avoiding the confusion of both the POIM and the EWF - but is extraordinarily difficult, taking centuries and requiring huge magical effort.

I don’t think this is even technically true for the majority of humans (are humans part Plant?). I’d be interested to see a source.

From your conception of what God Learners might believe, you can make up whatever metaphysical answer you want (though I assume the God Learners would mostly be arguing about such things from a theoretical perspective, and their only answers to questions about Draconic magic would be wildly disputed). Though the above assertion makes about as much sense to me as ‘all animals are a little bit Plant, and all Plants a bit animal’, which is just the same logic applied to different Form Runes and would seem to be the sort of statement that simply generalises to the point of practical meaninglessness. But as I’ve said pretty repeatedly in this discussion - almost always when people talk about someone ‘having’ a Rune, they mean in some practical, magically applicable, way that is in practice a game system dependent use. The question of whether some trace rune could be detected with a theoretical supersensitive laboratory rune-o-scope seems a different question, and not one to which I can see there being a useful answer.