davecake

In the East Isles, not only is Thella the goddess of dreams, but Avanapdur, once the mighty god of Illusion and ruler of the world, is now the Nightmare Lord - a bad guy, but purely in the dream world. And there is a whole system of magic based on dreams and the Dream world. Dream magicians can lucid dream and control their dreams, then enter the dreams of others and control their dreams - and eventually drag dreams into the waking world and make them real. There are multiple schools of dream magic, some who believe its illusions can teach deeper truths, but many who believe the dream world is false and must be destroyed. It is a whole complicated thing, much more detail in Revealed Mythologies - and we intend to create rules for Dream Magic for a future book in our East Isles series. As a aside note to that, I think there was active use of Dream Magic in the City of Wonders, possibly now looted by Wolf Pirates. That should be a pretty good adventure hook. A few Dream magicians from the East Isles may have made it to Nochet as well.

Gorgorma sends nightmares to punish…. Err wrongdoers who she does not choose to punish in any of the many other means she has at her disposal. But nightmare seems a significant aspect. And of course, night = out of the sunlight of Yelm. I don’t know who sends good dreams in Solar myth, but Dendara (as goddess of virtue, and of course Gorgormas sister) is a possibility.

The analogy fails, because Yelmalio was never an effective warrior cult 😁 In Cults of Prax, Yelmalio was the fighting cult that *decreased* your access to good combat spirit magic, as it granted only very weak combat spells (I think their most vaguely combat effective spirit magic spell was Coordination, but prevented your access to several including two of the most potentially useful to them), and only one real combat Rune spell (Sunbright), and that was still very weak unless you were fighting trolls or undead. They did have 2H Spear and Shield, which was quite effective in mass combat, but as it was not very useful in less structured melee, and was a separate skill to work up, so it actually made them a bit weaker as adventurers if anything. In short, Yelmalio the analogy was quite correct in saying that Yelmalio has not really improved since RQ2 days, but wrong in saying that Yelmalio was ever a strong choice - it was pretty weak compared to Humakt, Storm Bull, Orlanth or Seven Mothers even in Cults of Prax days (though admittedly some others, like Waha, were also fairly weak back then - and have generally somewhat improved). It has been claimed by various people connected to Chaosium that this was deliberate on Greg’s part.

And Mostali have a spell (Mostali maker magic, and requiring a permanent point of POW, so not casually used) that makes their armor not be bypassed by criticals, which should make adventurers pause even more. Elite Iron dwarves are scary, and can be serious Runemaster opponents - a group properly backed up by other castes can be Heroic opponents, Diamondwarves or True Mostali are Hero level themselves (admittedly going by Dragon Pass, not particularly powerful Heroes individually (the Dwarf is a bit weaker than Argrath, Beatpot or Gunda, etc), but able to command some extraordinary resources - enormous Jolanti, for example).

I’ve been thinking about something on Mostali for the JC. They will feature in our future East Isles material, so I’ll be doing a little work on them anyway.

A lot of Greg’s stories are based on events in his RQ2 game, which becomes kind of circular. Not that I can remember a lot of giant killing stories? But the issue with Big Club in the RQ3 version isn’t that he has 63 hit points - the issue is that he has insane armor, as he wears plate armour and giants armor points scale with their SIZ in RQ3. The random upscaling of armor for large things was a much bigger factor in making large monsters nearly unbeatable than hit points, and made fights turn into either crapshoots waiting for criticals, or entirely about using magic. Big Club is an unusual example - what makes him notoriously dangerous is his Chaotic Feature of +10 pt skin, plus some lunatic has given him plate greaves. So his armor points are formidable 22 on legs and 16 elsewhere. Dangerous, but his unarmored parts are not completely impenetrable with a special - say, a long spear ((1d10+1) impale would do 12+1d10+ db, so around 20-21 points, plus maybe a few more for Bladesharp. An impaling Firearrow does 9+ 3d6, so around 20. A slash from a truesworded bastard sword (this is RQ2) does 3d10+3 + db, so 22-23 - another 4 for Bladesharp maybe. His RQ3 version has effectively about twice the hit points per location, ~21 in the legs and abdomen. But the stats for giants were changed so he starts with 13 point skin rather than 6, and so his leg armour is 31 points, 23 in most locations, and some maniac decided that wasn’t bad enough so gave him a giant size chain mail hat. In RQ2 specials etc can make some difference - in RQ3 specials will just bounce off the higher armor, so you are looking at criticals only to effect him. The increased hit points do make it worse, because you probably have to critical him twice in the same location to take it out, but it’s the increased armour that is the real culprit, the fight is just waiting for criticals. For a normal giant, it’s much starker - if Big Club was a normal giant of his size - his hit points would go from 28 to 63, more than doubling, but his armor points would go from 6 to 13, meaning he would go from most normal hits causing some damage, to most normal hits causing no damage. Doubling hit points makes the fight longer - doubling armor points changes its nature significantly. Another example is dream dragons - they went from ‘4-10 point skin, determined randomly’, definitely within the human range, to 24 point skin, definitely requiring probably specials more likely criticals to hurt them at all - the armour is what takes the fight from wearing down a powerful enemy, to a frustrating series of waiting for criticals. And in RQ2 a 20d6 dream dragon would still have a 3d6 con, so actually kind of fragile in RQ2, a single magically enhanced critical bow shot might take out a location! This is a persistent trend with large things from RQ2 to RQ3, and I think much more important than the hit point increase in making large creatures seem undefeatable. Personally I think some of the urge to increase the armour points of large creatures came from play experience with large creatures having low hit points, and thus being relatively fragile without armor - though of course I have no inside knowledge, I’d love to hear from someone involved in the RQ3 design process, it’s interesting to note that switching to the average of STR and SIZ was a choice Steve Perrin made a lot earlier than that. And I personally find the ‘crapshoot waiting for criticals’ a far worse kind of fight to experience in play to a ‘wear them down’ fight, that works quite well for a group of tough heroes emphasising their survivability and tactics rather than mostly hoping for lucky dice. YMWobviouslyV, and I know there are other trade offs to consider, like overall complexity and compatibility with other products. But I’m still fairly convinced that RQ3 got this change right overall, and that separating height and mass in a few unusual cases would cover its deficiencies well - and that increasing the Armor of large creatures was the real issue with RQ3 making most large creatures effectively undefeatable, not their hit points.

Though it also draws on fantasy sources like Earthsea, some Jack Vance, Voyage of the Dawn Treader, and all sorts of travelers tales. And mystic traditions from India and elsewhere. There is a lot in there.

To learn at character creation, it needs to be a tradition that they could have studied for some years, though not necessarily on their home island. A martial artist does not need to stick to a single tradition after that. It is part of the genre that sometimes martial artists must learn new techniques from a new master to defeat an enemy etc.

Changing the events of the God Time is very hard. Reinterpreting the events of the Godtime is much easier. The EWF, in creating Orlanth Dragonfriend, didn’t say that Orlanth didn’t kill Sh’harkazeel the great Dragon, they said that it was an act of Utuma and the dragon wanted it to happen, and Orlanth didn’t sever its head and carry it around as a sign of victory over an enemy, but to show that he was granted dragon power in gratitude. If a Yelmalian quested to defeat Zorak Zoran, and said that he had defeated ZZ as Yelmalio should have, he’d just be falling for spiritual hubris and heresy. But if he really wanted his fire powers back, and said that during the Hill of Gold he had lost to ZZ (because fighting Chaos was more important etc), but he had managed to sneak a glimpse of where ZZ hid the fire, and given it out to his followers, and you could challenge one of them to retrieve it back later - well, that might work, but would invite further consequences.

And some would say that the God Learners were trying to do something as dramatic with the creation of Zistor, but they failed.

To be pedantic, Govmeranen is probably more equivalent not to Yelm himself as the physical Sun, but to Murharzarm, the son of Yelm that represents Yelm as manifest Emperor. But it’s expected that the God Learners hand wave that sort of detail. Maluraya is the Sun, but he is only a Viceroy, not the Emperor. He probably rules the Sky as a representative of Govmeranen, but Govmeranen wants only to meditate now.

Some dwarven plumbing is very large indeed I am sure, and very large Lead dwarves have a use. Claustrophobia indicates a flaw that should be corrected by the Gold dwarves (indeed, it may be regarded as evidence of poor Gold performance of their duties to allow such a thing to happen). Each of the castes encompass a fairly wide range of sub-specialties. A dumb silver might spend a great deal of time organizing specialised enchanting materials, maintaining spell archives, filling magic point reservoirs, tending to the physical needs of other Silvers during long rituals, etc, a diminutive Iron dwarf might be a scout and act as a forward observer, and stealthily lay explosive traps, a tongue tied Gold might organise curriculum and write documents for other Golds to deliver, conduct elaborate debates about the psychology of other races and the appropriate foreign policy. They allow for some variation in capability, as long as the caste as a group can perform their function.

Somewhat later, in his BRP superhero game Superworld, Steve realized that for that game at least it was necessary to distinguish between height and mass at times, as characters who were very dense, or very tall but not heavy (Stilt Man!) appeared, and the convention was that they were written as SIZ <height>(Weight), eg a very dense character (a body made of metal?) might be SIZ 14(56). Weight was used for hit points, damage bonus, height made you easier to hit (or harder for tiny SIZ). Height reduced your normal movement, but made movement powers cheaper. It actually would be pretty easy to adopt for RQ, with mass used for hit points and damage bonus, height used for Strike Rank and skill modifiers, most other times it happens in the rules are easy to work out (grappling or Flight spells mass, Illusion spells usually height, and so on). It would be an easy house rule, you’d just need to go through the bestiary and decide which monsters it applies to. It’s the best kind of optional rule, IMO - it solves the problem when you need it, 90% of the time when not needed it can be ignored, and even when it does matter, it’s mostly in creating characteristics rather than play. And besides dwarves, could be tweaked to allow for obese or skeletal characters if you wished (though of course most human PCs would be assumed to be of normal morphology). Contrary to Jeff I prefer the RQ3 average of Con and SIZ for hit points, as the RQ2/RQG system completely falls apart for very large or small things - and I think that may have come in with Superworld too. The problem of having to give dwarves a large Con in RQ3 could easily be solved by separating Height and Weight for dwarves, and it makes the game much more intrinsically simulationist, with large creatures generally appropriate hit points without a huge CON. Though it might appeal to have large things fairly easily defeated, in practice RQ2 stats would compensate by giving large things loads of armor - dinosaurs in RQ2/RQG tend to have as many armour points as hit points for even not notably armored ones in order to make them scary enough, for example, so it become a quest for a critical, rather than whittling big things down. Anyway, that’s an interesting aside, but a bit tangential to the main issue. Game design of an evolutionary nature like RQG has many trade offs, and they reflect different tastes and contexts.

The timing (this occurred very early, before Gbaji etc, in the year 109 or so), so it’s probably going to be from one of the OpenHandist groups that was part of the Unity Council - which means Gemborg, Dwarf Run (which is very small at this point, around 100 dwarves), or Greatway. I personally think probably Greatway based on location, Gemborg is quite far away and Greatway are neighbours of the Liornvuli. Martaler/Gemborg was probably more elf friendly than Iron Diamond Voice/Greatway was later, which may indicate a motive for aiding the Liornvuli against the elf friendly Stravuli? Though the Greatway dwarves are willing to fight alongside the elves for the Council against the Shargashi/Shadzorings in 168. Anyway, it doesn’t matter much which OpenHandist Unity Council dwarf faction much. The dwarves of Imther don’t seem to be OpenHandist (they trade raw materials, not technological creations) and don’t trade with Heortlings, the dwarves of Jords Eye are OpenHandist but quite far away and not part of the Unity Council, so unlikely to have encountered the Liornvuli.

I think a really interesting perspective on this whole issue (one which I’ve been thinking about for the East, as well as generally) is thinking about what warfare and combat look is like for Octamonist heretics, or other dwarven groups who do not have Iron dwarves for whatever reason (including OpenHandist/Individualist heretics and offshoots like the Flintnail cultists). What does Mostali combat look like without Iron dwarves? Dwarves of other castes using tools as weapons? So back to hammers and picks, largely. Mostly of bronze, manufactured by Copper dwarves. Much less reliance on gunpowder weapons, much more reliance on the tools of other castes - sorcery (Silver), alchemical weapons like acid or poison (Quicksilver), fire elementals and fire weapons and magic (Brass), Earth elementals, Jolanti, gremlins, etc (Tin). If making melee weapons becomes the job of Copper dwarves instead of Iron dwarves, wielding them may also be their job? A lot of use of defensive fortifications (Rock dwarves), probably also including sappers? The existence of the dwarven magic for making dangerous obsidian/sharpened stone blades/axes (showing up as the Diamond Edge spell in the RBoM) implies that at at least some point such weapons were used by Mostali, probably Rock dwarves (as its the same magic used to empower stone cutting tools). Maybe Rock dwarves would often be the first to encounter subterranean threats like troll tunnels or krarshtkid tunnels, and would have a protocol for emergency dealing with such threats, involving creating emergency weapons and boosting their effectiveness using the spells they already used? Besides thinking about what it’s like dealing with the dwarves of Diamond Mountain, and other smaller Octamonist enclaves, it’s also worth considering that encountering dwarves in contexts other than small military groups of only Iron dwarves will involve all these tactics - Iron dwarves are always a minority, and the rest of the Mostali would not be entirely unprepared to defend themselves. Also, while cannons and bombs are clearly very powerful and effective, the Mostali undoubtedly know of other siege weapons. The masters of the crossbow undoubtedly also are capable of making interesting variants on the ballista. Repeating ballista, perhaps cocked by Jolanti, for example. And catapults and trebuchets, perhaps flinging not just rocks but also alchemical payloads. Though dwarves would prefer weapons that have a fairly flat arc (including ballista) rather than a high arc like catapults or trebuchets, at least for defensive purposes. (an aside relevant to Heortling history - Culgak the mighty magical trebuchet that throws buckets of fire, that is the great weapon of the Liornvuli in the early First Age seems very incongruous in Heortling history, but makes a lot of sense as a Mostali creation. It is possibly relevant that Culgak was used by the Liornvuli against the Stravuli, and the Stravuli ruling line seem to have notably close relations with the Aldryami - which might go some way to explaining why Mostali might supply a great magical weapon to Orlanthi)

Consider that there are some priests who are specified to have non-martial, primarily non-physical, duties, and whose physical skills are limited to DEXx5, and that Argan Argar is not one of them. An Argan Argar priest may be a warrior, and Argan Argar initiates can receive training in 1H spear, but it simply is not necessary for priests to be good warriors. It is a small part of AAs role.

Sorry about that garbled formatting in the last message, forum software seems to have gone a bit odd. What I meant to quote, not hide, was From the Bestiary. I think it is implied Silver dwarves may have some sorcery knowledge that is more like conventional sorcery. I note that the Gods draft I have seen has some further examples of Mostali magic, including at least one spell that does not require POW sacrifice (seemingly intentionally - it is active, so it would seem a bad deal if it did), but there are also some other issues with issues with Mostali magic as describe there, and I expect it will be cleaned up in the published version. We have, however, only a tiny glimpse of Mostal magic at best, as whole important sections are so far undescribed.

Leaving aside we have an obvious philosophical divide here - I think Silver dwarves use something like conventional sorcery, you think they only use Maker magic (and that always means POW sacrifice) - the Bestiary literally says that the Mostali use techniques beyond those mentioned in the Bestiary, and that some of them more closely resemble standard sorcery ones

Invisible Orlanth is a mad and arrogant Carmanian mystic deciding that he is going to take the power of the Storm away from that annoying hill barbarian god, just like Lokamayadon did with his TarUmath cult, but he’s going to trick them into it this time. Just got to sell the idea to the Empire.

If Invisible Orlanth is really not very connected to the Orlanth cult, and sees Orlanth as an emanation of the Invisible God, it’s really ended up in quite a similar place theologically to Lokaymadon’s Tarumath cult, only via Carmanian/sorcerous reasoning, rather than mystical, hasn’t it? Taking the primal power of Storm that is bigger than Orlanth, because you understand it’s cosmic importance, without having to pay too much attention to those quarrelsome hill barbarians. If anyone wants to make it into part of a great world threatening conspiracy etc, that sounds like an element worth throwing in. Though I prefer the ‘embrace the dark side’ turn the tool of Ganesaturus to the ends of Idovanus interpretation myself, it’s always good to have a few competing interpretations for this kind of thing.

What Hanna said. Of course theft occurs in the East Isles, but professional thieves are something that happens largely in large urban centres, and they don’t really exist in the areas covered so far.

The Iron dwarf preference for unenchanted iron is very telling. They trust in iron, and see magic more as a problem than a help (mostly). But I don’t think this disdain for magic extends to Silver dwarves. While Mostali allegedly act as a perfectly unified society, and of course largely do cooperate at least within a single community, all of them have their own biases towards their own expertise and way of doing things, and some (slow and considered, probably only happening with the approval of Diamond dwarves) innovation within their fields. Silver Mostali will cheerily use sorcery beyond the bounds of traditional Maker magic, just as Iron dwarves use gunpowder, Golden dwarves build new alliances, Quicksilver dwarves create innovations like the Alchemical transformer, Tin dwarves create new creatures such as gobblers, etc. While this idea of slow technological innovation is not the same as religious or social innovation (Mostal himself was of course the greatest innovator, and the arch-conservatives of Nida were at the forefront of innovations like gunpowder), it will often be linked to it, especially OpenHandism and Individualism, but it happens. The Silver dwarves may have learnt some sorcery originally from others (likely from their long alliance with the Vadeli, in their ancient Storm Age alliance), or worked out its principles through observation, but I think they make some use of it now in addition to Maker magic.

Because that was the basis of the Serpent Kings dynasty. And the sort of thing that lead to the need to purge their influence. Sure, they aren’t really the same (the Serpent Kings didn’t just lead Earth worship, but also cross-bred with them etc). But being like the Serpent Kings is something that Good Rokari most definitely aren’t. Keep doing That Sort of Thing and before you know it you have the court hobnobbing with nymphs and satyrs and giant snakes. All very well for peasants to sneak off and do that sort of thing, if it’s necessary to keep the crops growing, but it leads to trouble if the nobility do. It’s an archaic title also held by the Watcher Supreme.

I agree with Darius and Nick that I prefer Invisible Orlanth as a new thing, and one uniquely Carmanian, rather than just being an offshoot of the Chariot of Lightning. Though it’s possible the Orgethite school of Air Rune sorcery, which was suppressed in the First Age by the True Hrestoli Movement in the First Age and ran off to the Dangan confederacy to eventually resurface as the foundation for the Chariot of Lightning movement centuries later, also was the basis for the sorcery and Malkioni theology of Invisible Orlanth, that is seriously ancient history. I think Invisible Orlanth is much more about dualist embrace of an ancient enemy god, I have as the Spolites embraced the gods of Darkness, than just the revival of something ancient.

Rules for East Isles Mysticism are included in our recent JC product Korolan Islands: Hero Wars in the East Isles https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/411738/Korolan-Islands-Hero-Wars-in-the-East-Isles--Volume-1 While those rules concentrate on the Mystics of the East Isles, and are more or less a basic skeleton without huge amounts of detail, I definitely wrote them with the intention that they would work as a general basis for mysticism everywhere but especially the East, including Kralorela. It was essentially me riffing out the details of Revealed Mythologies and Arcane Lore, plus a big pile of research into various real world mystical traditions. FWIW, a very very brief summary would be - core Mysticism is essentially Illumination. Many mystics gain magic from Austerities, which is a form of magic which is not intrinsically mystic but does not interfere with mystic spiritual progress, and may be used for more mundane purposes such as martial arts. It is something like Shamanic abilities (but not restricted to spirit powers), and something like Gifts and Geases. Those who are already Illuminated can gain other magical powers, many of which they do primarily for spiritual reasons but which have useful mundane effects.