davecake

I don't think so. Even among the mandarins very few have reason to directly deal with dragons or dragonewts. 1) again, using draconic magic and 'having the dragonewt Rune' are different things. In the same sense that a shaman uses Spirit magic and magic affecting Spirits all the time, but does not have the Spirit rune. And a crested dragonewt surely has the dragonewt rune, but no draconic magic. 2) whether the Path of Immanent Mastery, who assume the form of dragons, are using real Dragon Magic in any way is a source of some debate - the God Learners thought so, but others think they are deluded and have it exactly backwards - compared to eg Godunya, so has a dragon soul and human form, the POIM gradually gain a dragons form, but many argue always have solely human souls. I tend to agree with that point of view - real Dragon Magic is mystic and draws on draconic consciousness. Of course, the guards of the Godunya may be something else, advanced Darudist dragon mystics who use methods resembling Dragon Magic to temporary assume a dragon form. Most elves have both the Man and Plant Rune, being both humanoid sentient mortals, and plants. It's if he has both the Plant and Beast runes it gets really weird. Though half-elves existing in modern Glorantha is very weird and unusual anyway - humans and elves can't produce offspring without quite exotic magic. In Pavis: GTA for HeroQuest, the Pavis cult possessed a sorcery grimoire that contained a ritual to allow it (and also half-Mostali), and Pavis is the most recent example of a half-elf I know of. I can't think of a well known Third Age example - can anyone else? It seems to be a result of EWF magical projects to reproduce the Golden Age. Apart from that, it seemed to happen more in the First Age.

If it is using Spirit Magic it is - I wouldn't read to much into the use of the word. Using the word to mean a short term malign magic is fine. But if you want longer term curses, they can be from sorcery (very long term spell effects), divine power (the results of many so-called Spirits of Retribution (some of which are not spirits at all, but divine actions) are very much like classic curses), or other magic, especially the long term effects of various spirits, either through the use of Spirit powers directly or covert possession. I think @metcalphis quite right about this being a common form of curse on a person, and I think you also get spirit bindings (or analogous items that attract or tie a spirit to the area, like the ones Mallia worshippers use to spread disease) as a common form of curse. This is the classic idea of a witch type creating a curse object and hiding it where it curses the target. It seems like one that would work fine with RQG. We don't need special extra rules for all this. Most of it is already there in the spirit rules. And summoning spirits, as Jeff explicitly points out, can be done by Spirit magicians, Rune magicians, or sorcerers - and yes, probably mystics too). For a LOT of ideas about how to make interesting magic effects, you either don't need new rules, or just need minor additions such as new spells, you mostly just need new types of spirit constructed using the existing rules. The existing rules say: Spirits can have Curse as a power - examples include the ability to sour milk, spoil food, blunt tools, etc. Pretty much most classic minor curses. Could be from a hostile free spirit (eg if you offend a spirit of place), a spirit servant of a magician, a spirit bound in a cursed object, or a covertly possessing spirit. Of course they could also just cast spirit magic at inopportune times. Covert possession by spirits as a form of curse - that is exactly what a Passion spirit is (Bestiary pg 166). Spirits that change the shape of the host with are explicitly mentioned in the Bestiary, pg 167. Affect Environment or Control (which allows control over incomplete creatures) could be other forms of curse - affect environment could make it so that those effected always feel cold, or a sense of foreboding, or find it hard to things, or always are accompanied by a horrible smell. Control could lead to constant problems with rats, or fleas, or dogs to always be hostile. Classic curse stuff. spirits can obviously cause disease, and even have a Chaotic feature (depending on the feature, it could either be used directly, or applied as a curse to anyone it possesses) And by extension, almost anything possible to a Spirit of Reprisal is possible to other spirits. So that is a pretty huge range of curses. And add a few extra special magics, and you get even more. For example, the Create Foe-Curser spell curses those who trigger it with a curse that can last until the next Sacred Time (if not dispelled). It's not hard to imagine a few such specialist spells for other curses.

I'm sorry you find having your arguments questioned and clarified tedious, but we are not the only two people in this discussion, and I make arguments for clarity rather than based on what you might have preferred.

The draconic consciousness of the EWF is a mystic consciousness that is very similar to Illumination. It may be enough to use some Dragon Magic, but humans certainly seem to have a different relationship to Dragon magic than dragonewts do. It's obviously not the same thing as the physical modifications required to speak Auld Wyrmish - which may or may not be the same as 'gaining the Dragonewt rune', I don't know. Certainly being able to speak Auld Wyrmish is helpful for those seeking draconic consciousness and dragon magic, but they are clearly not the same thing, as demonstrated by the entire species (magisaurs, trachodons, etc) who speak the language easily, but are almost defined by their lack of draconic consciousness/dragon magic. Peter quotes the story of Orlaront being born 'purple blooded' - but doesn't quote from a couple of paragraphs down where it says "They were said to be dragon blooded, but in fact, most of the time it was meaningless." - it could just as easily be the results of a curse, or a magical consequence of a past life, probably one as a dragon mystic. It shows that there was something extraordinary about Orlaront, and his history with Forang Forash shows that he knows a fair bit about the EWF. But I don't think says much about Orlaronts essential Runes.

Based on drafts, I think the cult description of Aldrya in the Gods book will make it clear that humans initiating into Aldrya is as in RQ3 - effectively dieing through ritual sacrifice and being reborn as an elf. They gain the Plant Rune - but lose their Beast Rune. It's a horrific process. Other parts within the drafts I have state clearly that all humans lack a tie to the Plant rune. I'm not saying it is impossible for humans to 'have the Dragonewt rune', but that someone having the Dragonewt rune in their HeroQuest stats does not at mean that they do in RQG, because the latter strictly implies a change to their essential nature, and the former does not.

Runes in HQG and RQG mean fundamentally different things. In RQG they are at least somewhat linked to your essential nature, certainly in the case of Form runes, a somewhat simulationist approach. In HQG they were a measure of your ability to use that kind of magic or ability to solve problems, which equates to multiple things in RQG which *might* include a Rune, but certainly need not include your innate Form. So a shaman in RQG is not a spirit so has no Spirit rune, but his Fetch, Spirit Lore, Spirit Travel and other skills, his Shamanic abilities, his related spirit magic, that all enable him to solve problems using Spirit rune related methods all roughly equate to his an RQG Spirit rune. So I'd say Orlaront having the Dragonewt rune only means that he knows a bunch about dragonewts and other things draconic, probably some Dragon Magic, and can overcome problems using draconic means. But it says nothing about his essential nature. RQG is a somewhat crunchy very simulationist system, HQG is a fairly abstracted narrativist system, and both have different ideas about how a somewhat abstract system of runes translates into game mechanics.

Hey, I didn't make the rules. From Glorantha Sourcebook Personally, I would say nestlings yes (as they are Ancestor Worshippers, which seems to be a very Man Rune thing), they must have got some sort of exemption for the tail. Timinits I don't think so, just too weird. Centaurs seem to get an inheritance clause from the human half, but don't seem that excited by it. I think it varies for other Beast Men. Merfolk I'm not sure - they seem to mix their more otherworldly ancestors freely into their genealogies? Yeah, who knows, and who expects the rules to apply consistently to either? Yes. The Morokanth have the Man rune, but arguably because they took it from the Herd Men rather than coming by it naturally. Did they lose it? Having the Dragonewt rune (a Form rune) and being able to cast draconic magic are not the same thing at all. So I think Magisaurs, Trachodons, and Wyrms all could be said to retain the Dragonewt rune. They can all naturally speak Auld Wyrmish, for example. They can't cast dragon magic, but nor can Crested Dragonewts and no one says they don't get the Dragonewt rune. As Jeff says, Dragon Magic and the Dragonewt spiritual advancement towards dragon status is more than just changing a rune, it is a consequence of spiritual development within that system, just as devolution to other forms is a consequence of spiritual failure within that system. They are like Rootless elves, who possess the Plant Form rune but are unable to access it magically. Normal dinosaurs need no other Form rune besides Beast, like any other non-sentient animal. Symbology need not recapitulate phylogeny.

You could also make the Cradle a lot shorter not having the PCs present for the whole thing, thus cutting out large chunks. For example, you can miss the first few large fights by having the PCs join after the Cradle has been been boarded in Pavis.

That was just because Orlanth rudely takes away his great big spear just before he really needs it. Jerk. (if you are being charged by a berserk Zorak Zorani, your best hope is to try to take them out before they get a chance to hit you, and to do that it really helps to have a very big, very long, spear) How do you figure that? You can certainly be harmlessly carried by an air elemental, and it makes sense that two elementals can't occupy the same space. Same tactic works against Lunar elementals too (usefully, because Lunes are absolute monsters that are very hard to defend against). Not so handy with Fire elementals unless you are fireproof though.

Another crazy sounding defence is that you can't be engulfed if you are already inside an elemental - so Orlanthi inside an air elemental. Yelmalio may have its flaws, but they are really are very good at fighting trolls and their shades etc, Sunbright is superb for it, and Lightwall helps too. And they get access to Vigor through Ernalda too.

Eh, I played it the hard way. It took multiple sessions. It was quite the slog. But we wanted to say we had done it. And despite its reputation, and me beefing it up a bit, my PCs were tough enough I kept adding opponents and complications to make it tougher. A few extra enemy rune lords and such (Radak the Iron Centurion in Pavis, Invictus and Belvani at Sun County, etc), some extra Lunes and Lunar Demons, and a few of the Coders appearing in the final scenes. Two of them ended up having to DI , but no one died. But I don't really recommend it unless you just really want to say you have done it. RQG rules probably make it a bit easier/faster if you are skilled enough, the rules for skills over 100% subtracting from parry make tough characters a little more dangerous. My PCs ended up finding fighting shield walls full of Lunar hoplites or Sun County phalangites very annoying, with successful attacks so often just hitting a shielded location harmlessly, until they took to just waiting to the end up the round and doing an aimed blow to head, and then the shield walls went down like harvesting a field of wheat.

Not that clear an example, Belintar suddenly gets surprise attacked by a second superhero, which hardly seems fair to anyone.

The Man Rune represents Grandfather Mortal. All intelligent humanoid mortals. So no chickens, Magisaurs, dragonewts or unitelligent monkeys.

In terms of RQG Runes, Dragonewts should not have the Man rune. Even though elves, trolls, dwarves etc have the Man rune, so it clearly doesn’t represent humanity, it does represent mortality, and dragonewts are not mortal but ever reborn. They do not fear death, but seek only to get off the cycle of reincarnation, generally by becoming a dragon. So this might be their dragon rune. If they have an opposing Rune to Dragon, it would be Beast - giving into their emotional and unthinking side. But Illumination can make Opposed Runes unopposed, and can also overrule the influence of Passions and Runes. And draconic consciousness is in some major ways the same as Illumination, presumingly in these ways, the most basic. I think the first step into higher level draconic consciousness for a dragonewt is the same as becoming a Beaked Dagonewt, and roughly equivalent to human Illumination into draconic consciousness, though probably a dragonewt only gets to gain the benefits (perhaps even roll for Illumination) on ‘death’. In RQ2 the dragonewt effort to reconcile the opposing sides of their natures was represented by trying to reduce both of the two side of their nature to nothing, in RQG it could be represented by increasing both to 100% while continuing to keep them under control of the higher nature. It could also be having Passions for dragonewt Honor, that they must laboriously increase to 100% by right action, or Passions for various entanglements that they must laboriously reduce through repaying their debts of Honor, or scores (Passion or otherwise) for the paired character traits unique to each stage (with a new pair generated at the next). Rules are arbitrary game conventions, as long as they represent the right behaviour and rewards etc it doesn’t matter much whether they are scores that go up or down. Once they have attained the requirements for the next level, continued living at the lower level has no purpose, so utuma. These are all possible rules that replicate or expand on Greg’s old rules in RQ2 WF 14. But we don’t need them unless we want dragonewt PCs, and we may not. They certainly might provide inspiration for mysticism rules though.

I think fairly early in the 1600s Jotisan and other members of the Sartar royal family are either in relative hiding, and avoiding public office and under assumed names, or they are dead, with Temertain surviving only because he is living as just another Apprentice/Sage, and only some of the Sages of the Nochet Knowledge Temple know his ancestry (though one seems to have slipped it to Redbird).

I don’t think just Superheroes - Jonat seems to be just a hero, and is explicitly named as one, Ethrist says he has returned from the underworld once and could do it again, Argrath claims to have done it multiple times quite early in his career. There are other examples of heroes who have definitely visited the underworld and returned in a Heroquest including Yanafals Tarnils, Hon-Eel, Valare Addi, presumably these would all be considered kaelith by those who knew the term. Anyone who has quested to the underworld and returned theoretically could do it I think, though most would find it very difficult, and most would not have conscious access to the kaelith ‘powers’. That would include PCs who completed the Eleven Lights quest or who freed Hofstaring, which makes for quite a few in my games! Some preparation might be required (eg the Golden Tear for Eleven Lights). An interesting counter-example is Rastalulf of the Vanak Spear, who absolutely has been to the land of the dead and returned, and who does not reappear after the Immolation - I think the doom he accepts with the Vanak Spear from Alaramsor is what prevents him, Alaramsoror instead appears at his death to retrieve the spear. Besides, the allies who assisted his return the first time are (probably) all dead as well by this time. I think it’s likely that a determined heroic opponent could make it very difficult to do return, though it may be difficult to keep a really well resourced/sufficiently magically complex hero down (even Sheng Seleris had difficulty with the Red Emperor, who has a large magical/ otherworldly infrastructure dedicated to his return - and it took two superheroes, although not consciously working together, to permanently defeat Belintar). And of course all bets are off with a Lightbringers Quest to retrieve them. Its also notable that a weirdly large number of heroes who died and returned were killed by Harrek - at least Ethilrist, Argrath, Jar-Eel and the Red Emperor - and it’s Jar-Eel who finishes off Belintar even though Harrek has just been fighting him. Presumably he could make it difficult for at least the lesser heroes to return, and generally just doesn’t care to?

Well, if you are a dishonourable ally of Chaos, sure. And willing to risk a close encounter with Chaos yourself. There are multiple foreseeable bad outcomes from this course of action. But you do you. A more likely, but equivalent, case would be a Lunar feeding it to the Bat. Or a Thed worshipper opening a Chaos void. But these are the acts of a villain. Not to say you can’t, or even shouldn’t - but the story consequences may be large.

Keeping a Hero dead can be difficult. Correct - though as an experienced Hero, Ethilrist is almost certainly pretty formidable in spirit combat too, at the very least a master of spirit combat with a high POW, but probably spirit plane allies, access to useful magic, and probably exotic heroic powers like the equivalent of shamanic abilities, and spirit plane eapons and armour. So easier said than done. And once done, Ethilrists allies will come after you. There are definitely more advanced versions of this technique, eg the minor Lunar deity Holder, who can imprison souls in her jar for up to seven years (eg GS p160). With powerful enough magic, you may even be able to bind the spirit of a defeated foe to work for you (eg as Hwarin Dalthippa did to Gwythar Longwise, or Yara Aranis did to First Slave), though this may be more a thing a hero does to you. And bear in mind even according to RAW, some heroic shamans can recover from a killing blow *in a Strike Rank*. It would be quite unsurprising if Heroes like Ethilrist are capable of the same. I suspect you really want to have much more than mere physical weapons to even get them to stay dead - try things like attacking their mind or sanity (Madness or Mind Blast) to prevent them acting, attribute damage (eg Tap, disease, various exotic spells and spirits and weapons and poisons), wounds that resist healing (eg Seal Wound), mind control/compromise etc (Dominate, Fear, etc) for at least long enough to strike, and most such things probably just disable them for long enough for you to try and remove their magical defences and hold off their allies for long enough to try a real finishing move, like capturing their spirit. Often all you can manage is to hit them in a way that causes them to leave the field, like a bad Seal Wound injury or a Mind Blast, especially if their allies are still active. I think that there may be some means of tying a hero, even a kaelith, to their body, such that then chopping it up and seaparating it prevents them returning until it is united, as was done to Nysalor. But I don’t know much about, other than it seems to be a way of seriously disposing of the very magical. Even this is probably not enough to prevent return via Lightbringers Quest. Other methods of disposing of a hero are feeding them to dragons or Chaos monsters, but this is often inviting an even worse problem. It did pretty devastatingly eliminate many heroes over the centuries. True, and lying in wait for them in a vulnerable place in the heroplane as Jar-Eel did to Belintar. You don’t even need to Heroquest yourself - Fazzur got his magicians to open a gateway to Lunar hell, and tossed Hofstaring Treelaper in there directly. It’s also worth noting that not all heroes can return from the underworld in this way. A well known example is Rastalulf of the Vanak Spear - though he has literally been to the underworld and returned before, when he is killed by Lokomayadons men, he does not return, probably because of the doom he accepts from Alaramsor when he accepts the Vanak Spear, and instead Alaramsor retrieves the spear. Very common example might be Humakti, who I think would often regard this as violating their oath. An Illuminated Humakti could do it, though I can think only of Arkat and Yanafals Tarnils in this category, and they might still regard it as dishonourable.

The other possibility for the White Horse troop would be that the6 are associated with Galana, the Ralian Sun Horse goddess, though the horses associated with her are generally golden not white.

FWIW, I agree that Ethrist knows a way out of Hell that is different to Resurrection, discovered through Heroquest, and that many other heroes, including Arkat, Argrath, Talor, Harrell, Jar-Eel also have similar methods. And yes, this means they are what Xeotam calls a Kaelith - their physical body is essentially created by magic after that, and some (not all) such heroes learn to leave their body like a shaman, or shapechange, as a result. Heroes are tricky. Resurrect, on the other hand, is less powerful, and can not rescue a soul from the deep underworld, and does not create a new body but return you to the old one. When you are a hero yourself and killing another hero and want them to stay dead, you don’t just kill them and assume thy aren’t coming back after a week. Hell, you don’t even assume that of a half way good shaman.

I would think more like the Western destriers, big horses able to carry heavy armoured warriors, and allegedly descended from the ancient steeds of Danmalastan, than Grazer steeds which have a different origin and are not as big (but are fast, and the best are intelligent, and magical )

Gustbran the smith god as the child of Asrelia, who is among other things the goddess of mining and so a source of metal, makes perfect sense. I’m sure many people believe it, if it isn’t canonical.

What Pavis: GTA actually says is: “The war gods of the regiment are Yanafal Tarnils and Hwarin Dalthippa. Ipharia Enestratos is the regimental guardian and resides in a gold and silver bat atop a silver moondisk on a blackwood staff. ” So Ipharia is the regimental wyter. And that seems be pretty much all that has been said about the cult outside of ILH-2, I suspect it is now quite deprecated, at least as a cult - as are most ILH cults. At most it would be a sub-cult of one of the two main gods of the regiment. The ILH-2 entry also associates the cult with Odayle and Jajagappa, but I don’t really know why, nor is it ever mentioned again. I’d ignore that one definitely. They are portrayed in Masters of Luck and Death with dogs, but with no explanation offered anywhere. I’d treat Hwarin as the main god of the regiment, with officers also worshipping Yanafals. Regiments of Hwarin followers are said to usually be either peltasts or light cavalry, and a special cult status is the elite initiate Shield Maidens who seem to be peltasts. The Silver Shields seem to be now mostly described as hypaspists, and treated as superior hoplites (including by Martin in Armies and Enemies, and in Pavis:GTA). But the term hypaspist meant different things at different historical times, and at times meant elite hoplite heavy infantry, but at other times much more like peltasts. The Silver Shields are one of the uncommon cases where we have actual RQ stats for an average member, though, and in The Cradle they are definitely peltasts, skirmishing javelin troops. Unless the regiment mixes heavy and light infantry, they should be peltasts IMO.

Mostly from Gemborg, I think. But the siege went on for years, plenty of time for the dwarves of Gemborg to have called in allies from Greatway, even Nida. And there is always the possibility that the 10,000 dwarves might be a slight exaggeration

The RQ3 and the Magic World rules are very similar - and the most obvious bits where they differ are around magic, in which case neither is fully compatible with RQG. They are as compatible as we are going to get for now though - from spell descriptions in the rules book, like the Rogue Wave spell, we know that RQG shares the same ship characteristics and so on.