davecake

The history of the elves is quite Genertelan focussed, and it is interesting the Genert is treated as an obvious ally of the Aldryami whose death is a disaster etc - but Pamalt, who cheerily burns elves forests, is not mentioned.

Peter hits precisely on my biggest problem with the way the Aldryami are written up - the botany is bad! Many of the trees found in forests that are described as brown are actually flowering broadleafs, for example. It is also a very odd thing - to me it comes across as a very northern hemisphere attitude - to assume that the only forests that aren't coniferous or deciduous are jungles. The southern hemisphere in particular is FULL of temperate broadleaf forests that aren't deciduous or jungle. The idea that large ferns only live in separate eco-system, not within forests, is also weird to my personal experience. Large tree ferns are part of many forests I've visited. Reconciling this is complicated. My working assumptions at this point are: - ideas about Embyli are confused human ideas. Actually, brown or brown/green forests in particular contain minority populations that are technically Embyli, associated with flowering broadleaf trees native to those forests, but the elves don't draw attention to it that way. And our ideas about Embyli being usually small are likewise confused, based on assuming that Embyli implies jungle plants. Generally, there are a bunch of minority populations within forests that the 'view from 30,000 feet' tends to miss. Sometimes this will also include elves that are technically Slorifings too. - Aldryami do not think of their cultural differences in terms of dominant elf type. They think of them in terms of ecology type. The idea that the range of trees (and thus elves) in a region will be mixed is perfectly normal to them. Two forests that are described as 'mixed green/brown' might be considered totally different to an elf.

While I think this is true for Danmalastan/Zerendel, I am not sure it is true for the Vadeli Empire, which really only became established after the Vadeli had become hostile to the others. Though there would be slaves/captives, adventurous exiles, etc, I don't think it would be widespread.

Oabil and Chir are different parts of the Vadeli Empire, and only Oabil is described as being over run by Slarges - and Oabil is the South of the mountains part (eg see mythic map pg 691), roughly corresponding to the modern Slarge homeland of Wongarassi. I do think we lack useful info here. I'm not 100% sure that the pelmre and the slarges are simply the same thing - quite likely there is an unknown myth by which the pelmre acquired their odd alternating generations life cycle, and became modern slarges. Of course, its also possible that the known slarge/pelmre creation myth is just wildly inaccurate Doraddi supposition. Whether Lascerdans fit into this I have no idea - we know so little about them. Getting WAY off topic here though.

Joerg says "Personally, I don't think that there are any Pamalt-worshippers who aren't descendants of Dorad or from the same generation or earlier as Dorad." I personally think there are Pamalt-worshippers who aren't descendants of Dorad, but not many. Obviously its no longer canon, but in the old Pamalt writeup being a 'descendant of Dorad' meant you could automatically join, but there were procedures for foreigners and outsiders to join if they wish. I suspect this is still the case. Not just because I see no reason to change it, but because there are myths of Pamalt allowing foreigners to become part of the tribe (eg Keraun).

Quite possibly Tentacule is the divine version of the practice, the Wool Cloaks the sorcerous. I agree with the idea that its a mystic/primal version of Slavery - Ompalam the more worldly version, suitable for general populace, Tentacule more for dedicated magicians. Darleester a specific magically enforced form of slavery. The Fonritian sorcery is not a coherent school, rather a cluster of related traditions. I expect most of them allow Tapping of anyone or anything that you own, de facto if not de jure. I expect they have access to a lot of specialised knowledge regarding Tapping, learned from the Vadeli, who were masters. I think the Brithini obsession with the right ways to interact with the Eranschula/gods is not shared by the Vadeli. The Vadeli recognise the ancient laws that grant them immortality as a list of specific practices necessary for immortality rather than a moral code, and it turns out messing with spiritual practices that Zzabur didn't understand is often possible. So the question of whether the Ompalam is believed in by the Vadeli isn't that big a deal - the Vadeli believe in magical slavery, the Vadeli pursued magical slavery on a culture wide basis, forcing your slaves to venerate the anthropomorphised power of slavery makes perfect sense. Some individual Vadeli may do so as well, and as long as they don't lose their immortality thereby, what of it?

Its very clear from the Mythic Maps etc that there has been extensive contact with the Vadeli in Pamaltela before the Dawn, and that this mostly was horrible for Pamaltela. There doesn't seem to have been much if any contact with other Western cultures pre-Dawn, but it makes sense that the coast would have contact with the Waertagi. I definitely feel that the Slarges, rather than Lascerdans, are responsible for the downfall of the Vadeli empire, but we know far too little about either slarges or lascerdans. The big wave of contact with the Malkioni seems to have been almost entirely historical, I'm not sure if there was ever contact between the Brithini and Pamaltela. And yes, the Pithdarans are an entirely separate group to the Danmalastan peoples, and their racial background is unrelated. Its interesting to me that they are specifically Doraddi, are a different group culturally and ethnically from other groups that have migrated from Pamaltela and Genertela, and might retain some remnants of Doraddi culture, such as a different approach to lineage.

The war societies have specialties I would assume, but any given regiment seems to be taken only from a single society, so the societies must be able to muster an attempt at filling all military specialties at needs. The Snakes might make the best spies, but even the Mammoths can spy at need, etc. Whatever magic the societies have, it no doubt is best at their traditional specialties, but thats certainly not all they can muster.

These rites are described in Dara Happa Stirs. While a non-canon source, I see no reason to think that part is wrong. The visitor is struck on the neck with a fake axe made of reeds.

I think there is a lot of stuff in Tales 11 that doesn't fit as part of the Doraddi as described in the Guide at all. Some of it is inspired somewhat by Australian Aboriginal culture, which I don't think is a good fit for the Doraddi. Some of the differences can be integrated by assuming it is a regional variant of Doraddi culture from Tarien. I actually think Australian Aboriginal derived ideas work better as inspiration for Fiwan myth.

I think it's more or less the case that the War societies use non-Malkioni magic to some extent, just not quite sure how much. They could manipulate animal spirits using sorcerous magic, for example (which would still be against strict caste rules, but otherwise much less heretical). Or they could just be secret spirit societies and they never let the talars or Zzaburi in the meetings so there is no 'proof'.

I think you are right about the use of magic, but: 1) if that's the case, it's poorly expressed in the section under discussion - spirit magic is a lot more than kitchen charms. 2) it would be nice for this to be made explicit somewhere 3) it's confusingly not at all the system in earlier HQ2 stuff like SKoH, where spells are common but grimoires were not. 4) the use of spirit magic as terminology for magic that seems to have nothing to do with animism, and also as a term for animism, is very confusing. 5) it's notable that the Vadeli are notorious sorcerers yet allegedly follow the same caste rules as Brithini.

I find the Hungry Goddess of the Veldang being Krarsht a bit dull, I guess. i think Krarsht is known in Fonrit (what Krarsht worshipper wouldn't love the place?) but I think that only happened in historical time. Certainly Pamaltelan isn't supposed to be riddled with krarshtkid tunnels like Genertela, and Krarsht mythology only mentions Genertela AFAIK. And some sort of dark side of the blue moon sounds more fun to me. But YMMV. Certainly the Artmali had their own dalliances with chaos.

Yes, the close connection to Ralzakark and his captured God Learners makes that pretty plausible, and I don't recall any other canon mentions of Seseine in Peloria (even the non-canon ones are pretty plausibly linked to Ralzakark and/or God Learners). Now, Ikadz appearing in eg Lunar Hell in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes is a bit harder to explain away, the representation there (and as a known foe of Humakt) makes him seem more integrated into theyalan myth. Perhaps the God Learners brought knowledge of Ikadz to Fonrit, whereupon they all just decided that a torture God was too Awesomely Bad to go past and adopted him wholesale. Its also possible that this was a real meeting of minds. The Fonritians had already inherited knowledge of torture magic from the Vadeli, the God Learners filled in the gaps and brought the name Ikadz.

Magic - the question about magic that we need to know for gaming purposes is 'what kind of magic do Rokari that aren't Zzaburi have?' And the most natural reading of the Overview of Religious Practices section would appear to be none that merits even bothering to write into most games. A less natural reading might be that other castes have a small amount of practical magic for day to day tasks suited to their caste, maybe if only used by a minority? Would this even count as sorcery in game terms?

Law - it's very interesting the way the Seshnelans have 3 or 6 legal systems, maybe even 7 in theory. There are four systems of intra-caste law. Then whole of society law including both inter-caste and criminal law, as administered by Talars. Then Royal law, which sits separate to all. And both Talars and Zzaburi are involved in the administration of any legal decision that isn't intra-caste. I think this easily makes for the most complex system of law in Glorantha. Guessing that dronar law is mostly regulation of trade, and adjudicated by guild officials. Intra-talar law about succession, estates, and includes heraldry. Zzaburi law is essentially similar to canon law. And Horali law mostly about regulation o combat and warfare.

Language- I love the idea of the Brithini having words for emotions that no longer exist. And that the Brithini believe that the spoken Western tongue is derived from the written form - presumably they believe there were separate languages for the different Danmalastan tribes, but they unified after Zzabur created the true Western script? Tradetalk - Theyalan, but still part of Western culture. Interesting. Due to God Learners/MSE of course.

Ascended Masters - veneration that has no magical effect seems a weird thing to get worked up over in Glorantha. I suspect that veneration matters magically in a couple of ways. i think Joy of the Heart is at least a bit related to mysticism, though Joy is not Illumination. I don't think we understand Mysticism enough to understand this just yet, and this thread is the wrong place to dive into it. But I have detailed theories in development. And I think that Hrestoli veneration of Ascended Masters includes knowledge of, and active replication of, HeroQuest paths associated with the deeds of the master in life. These have both spiritual and practical magical significance. Plus many Ascended Masters have created their own grimoires. Its clear that actually sacrificing to Ascended Masters for divine magic is 1. still considered a deluded and bad idea by the Loskalmi 2. Actually a working magical practice when performed by henotheists, probably similar to theist hero cults and 3. As such, probably pretty common in areas rife with henotheism like Safelster.

Women - my theory is that the status of women is regarded as a caste defined by physical difference and work (their work is child bearing and rearing) like any other. The Rokari confuse this somewhat (and so think of Talar women, Horali women, etc). The Hrestoli think of women as entering the women's caste when they fall pregnant, remaining in it while their primary occupation is child rearing, but being in a separate caste while otherwise occupied.

Castes how do the Rokari, scrupulous in everything else, justify their talars not just being trained in combat, but actually being their military elite? The pragmatic answer may be that a bunch of semi-barbarians conquered them and they have to live with it, but they must have some explanation and lingering taboos as a result. Is their mobility, in theory or practice, between sub-castes among the Rokari? What about foreigners with no caste, clearly most are outside the system but is it possible for them to become part of it even in theory? Can a skilled expert in a trade become a member of a guild if not born into it? Can a warrior not a hereditary member join a War society? The most likely answer seems to be that a foreigner must first convert to Malkionism (quite how it works with heretical foreigners who are some other kind of Malkioni is another question), whereupon a talar permanently assigns them a caste, and they then join a sub-caste/guild/society. are any of the secrets of the castes or sub-castes magical in nature? Eg do guilds have secret enchantments?

I'm dubious about Seshnela as the most playable Western culture, they've always struck me as merely the dullest. The Beast societies - I'd love to know about these particularly what magic they offer. Long ago they were presumably Hsunchen related, but presumably nothing beyond the vestigial remains? Finally, proper ploughs. I appreciate this and the Fonrit section addressing the issue of popular recreational intoxicants. Is Kafl mild or weak? More like tobacco or cannabis or opium? Huh, the Ancient Brithini were shortish. Glorious range of skin tone, indicating that Seshnela has plenty of Brithini genetics, but hopelessly mixed by Brithini standards. I assume that eg Horali families might take pride in ruddy colouring, or families from which many Zzaburi come pride in being tall and blueish. Greenish hair too!

Wizardry text box - to be honest, I've always found the 'Summon/Dismiss, Command, Combine/Separate, Tap' system clumsy and limiting. It feels like an idea written down once, adhered to due to its provenance, but never well playtested. It feels a bit incoherent - they are all verbs, but Power runes are verbs also? Do you have to Summon a Rune before you Combine it? Can you Tap a Power? When do you Dismiss a Rune and when Summon it's opposite? Why not Tap if you can Tap an abstract power? More questioned raised than answered. I think we might have been better off without this being explicitly written into Gloranthan Wizardry. Some might say I'm overthinking it, I think the whole concept is overthinking it.

From the illustration - missing Storm Rune! Another culture that things Storm is intrinsically dubious? Pithdaros noted as specifically originally Doraddi, rather than Agimori, is interesting to me as a Pamaltela obsessive. The link to the Goujian sword is cool. The one depicted has a similar blade, but a cross guard at the pommel that is absent on the Goujian, and far larger than anything I've seen on a Chinese jian at all (and doesn't really fit my idea of 'elegant'). (Annoying aside - all the links seem to be broken, even those that aren't links to Chaosium)

Fonrit is an area ripe for some really fun gaming possibilities- but like many cool gaming settings, that's because it's an incredibly awful place by many criteria, with all manner of ghastly, horrific, vicious and lurid goings on.

The Slavers Bay analogy isn't bad, but yes, many Fonritans take it even further, and don't even philosophically acknowledge the idea of freedom. And I think if you took that foundation away, yes, their religious foundations shaken the rulers would be likely to turn to Vadeli nihilism and Chaos. Live also heard Fonrit described as mixing West Africa and Moorcock's Melniboné. The blues understand the idea of freedom, but have nearly forgotten what it's like, I think there would be a lot of desire for vengeance before they even tried to be really free. I think it would get very bloody indeed.