davecake

There is. Just ask any post-Brithini follower of Malkion. Malkion became a mortal, and Zzabur turned away from Malkion, and condemned him. (initially I wrote the most appropriate typo - 'Malkion became a moral', which is also perfectly true). Brithos is rotten, because it does not acknowledge Malkion, but only Zzabur. Their Logic is without true love or compassion. The Brithini, especially their Zzaburii, of course, think the above is illogical nonsense. 'define the logical value of love' they say. Why would you treat the Energy of a flower or a lake as being of moral value compared to the well being of the true people? Why is taking on the delusionary emotions of lesser mortality supposed to make the word of Malkion deliver insights superior to the perfect Logical thought of the divine Zzabur? Its laughable, they say. Note that when I talk about the Brithini acknowledging simple sensual pleasures, and enjoying positive emotion, I'm mostly talking about all the other castes except the Zzaburi - the Zzaburi strive to be as emotionless and cold as Zzabur. But the Brithini Zzaburi are the ones who Tap. But also note that the embrace of sensual pleasure as being a perfectly logical way of enjoying life carries on to modern Malkioni, especially the Rokari. The Rokari think the love of food, drink, sex, and beauty is perfectly logical and indulge themselves withouit guilt (though still acknowledging that some pleasures are problematic, like overindulgence to the point of addiction or physical debilitation). Malkion is said (though not, as far as I am aware, in a canon source, so take with a grain of salt) to have said "Do not ruin that which you love", which by modern Malkioni (both Rokari and Hrestoli) is interpreted to mean do not Tap. Tapping might be justified in extremis when the alternative is worse, and sorcerers know how to Tap because its theoretically implicit in all sorcery, but it is intrinsically wrong. Brithini, Vadeli and Waertagi, the pre-Malkion West, consider Tapping to something that can be logically justified simple by the outcome - if Tapping helps you win, do it. Hence the sad bleak Brithini lands. Most post-Malkion Westerners think that by Zzabur etc allowing Tapping they brought on the Great Darkness, and only the great sacrifice of Malkion allows mankind to access Solace and so have some hope of redemption in the broken world that Zzabur left us with. And then there are the weirdo minor modern sects, the Galvosti and the Boristi. The Boristi think Malkion could not possibly have loved Chaos, so Tapping Chaos is fine. But that has led them into weird creepy territory. And the Galvosti think that Malkion could not possibly have loved non-Malkioni heretics, which has led to them Tapping most of their enemies, which has led to them being soundly hated and nearly exterminated.

I think Mostali find it very awkward to discuss any issue outside their assigned work role with other Mostali. Thinking of other Mostali as individuals is weird. Discussing another Mostalis private life (typically the hobby they pursue in their private sleep niche) in a work context a huge social taboo. But of course there are some Mostali who embrace individuality. Individualism is a known heresy., rightly condemned by most Mostali. Which gives you some idea how alien individuality is to orthodox mostali. http://www.glorantha.com/docs/individualism/

Brithini and Mostali are very different. Mostali are not human, and their psychology is very different. Brithini are human. Their psychology is human, if unusual. Basically, Brithini are very conservative humans, mostly limited in their intellectual curiousity (except the Zzaburi). They do desire to improve their lives but only within limited ways by limited means. They have a very strong sense of their role in society and their civic responsibility, but they are individuals. An average Brithini enjoys food, drink, company of others, nature, and so on - for the most part, they work hard, but also enjoy simple pleasures. The notion of 'social progress' is relatively alien to them as we understand it - their society is evidently correct, as it grants Immortality. The Brithini enjoy and appreciate positive emotions like love, and sensual pleasures,as long as they are always subordinated to logic and the good of the community. Mostali take very little joy in anything that isn't the work of Mostali. They do not, for the most part, value individuality. They take joy really only in achievement of tasks and making their perfect space to be comfortable and relaxed in - even normal eating and drinking and other sensual pleasures are of no joy to them. Freedom is also alien to most of them - an orthodox mostali aspires to, either by orders or knowledge, having no doubt whatsoever what to do at any given moment. There are similarities. Both are very conservative, and immortal. Both value being good at their jobs, and serving their community. Both rely on reason and rationality. In many ways they think alike, but ultimately Brithini are weird humans, and Mostali are not humans at all. It is also worth considering the Vadeli. The Brithini and the Vadeli hate each other with a deep loathing. But they hate each other so much because, in many way, they are very similar. Both are immortal as long as they maintain their caste rules. Both are logical sorcery based societies. And actually, the core rules of their societies are quite similar. But the Vadeli are not conservative by nature (only to the extent they maintain their caste rules, as a path to immortality). They bend the rules, find loopholes, test them. They do co-operate among themselves, but regard literally everyone else as not much more than resources to exploit. The Vadeli do not stop at simple pleasures, but indulge grotesque and perverse tastes as well. The Brithini believe that their way of life is a logically developed system of cooperation and morality for the common good. The Vadeli think that is a ridiculous idea, and logic implies morality is a delusion. The Vadeli are nihilists, and incredibly awful. They are also the only people that the Brithini can't logically prove wrong. Which eats at the Brithini constantly.

Here is how I think it works - mostly agreeing with everything Jeff says, but expanding on the reasoning behind it a little bit. The Menena caste is not simply the female caste, it is, like all the other castes, actually defined by the work and social role they perform - Menena is the Mother caste. The job of Menena is to give birth and raise children, and as part of that maintain an environment suitable for the raising of children, and to teach children what they need to know for life. To the Ancient Brithini, of course being born a woman defines your caste and your social role, just as your birth circumstances determine your caste for everyone else. Your role is to produce new Brithini adults, and you perform it as appropriate in lines with Logic and reason - marriage is an arrangement to perform that function. In practice, they also adopt the caste of their partner and assist them with their caste duties, and this is understood as logical, as the mother must know the caste duties of their children so they can teach them. Menena also have their own duties related to creating an appropriate home for their families. It may be extended, perhaps, to include caring for those who due to illness are not able to care for themselves. I think caste used to be strictly hereditary for the Brithini, but this is another thing that broke in the Great Darkness. Families broke down, people had to raise people in the wrong caste to survive, war ruined everything. They have complex rules that amount to 'hereditary castes are best, but here are an extended list of other rules that may be used in altered circumstances'. The idea of a woman who is not in the Menena caste is conceivable, but not really understood. Of course in modern times, Brithini Menena do not actually spend much of their time raising children or giving birth. This doesn't bother the Brithini at all. A soldier is still a soldier if there are no enemies to be fought, and a mother is still a mother if there are no children around to be raised at that moment. To the Rokari, they believe they are imitating the Brithini but also understand that things are done differently now than they would have been in glorious Danmalastan. Now that people are mortal and resources are limited, logic determines that life is precious and a strong marriage commitment is the most sensible strategy. Marriage is still understood as an agreement to create children, and the bearing and raising of children the duty of the Menena caste. To the Hrestoli, Menena is a caste, and enjoys caste mobility like any other. A woman of Loskalm is considered to be in the Menena caste if they are a mother or homemaker, and is automatically accepted into that caste if they wish. But if they instead join another caste (being accepted as a Guardian or a member of another profession) they they are considered to be of that caste, Should they fall pregnant, they become Menena caste again, are relieved from other duties, and remain that way until their children are born and they are able to return to other duties. It is considered perfectly acceptable for members of higher castes to take a prolonged time out for child care, though it is also considered acceptable for one to put her children into a child care arrangement and return to other duties. For example, a Guardian woman might return to her duties, and make arrangements for her child to be in the care of a female relative. Group child care arrangements are considered logical and desirable. And in keeping with New Hrestoli idealism. if a man should decide that they wish to dedicate themselves to child raising and child care, they are also considered to have voluntarily joined the Menena caste. This is not shameful, though it is a little unusual. Comments and feedback appreciated.

Anyone ever run a game that included East Isles dream magic? I'm very interested in both ideas of what can be achieved with Dream magic, and how the dream world is experienced. Is it simply like the experience of dreaming? Or is it an otherworld of its own, perhaps like the Dreaming in Sandman comics, with amorphous and unworldly geography of its own? Or perhaps it even has stable geography of its own, like Lovecrafts Dreamlands, perhaps the remnants of the Empire of Avanapdur? I see it as possibly all of these, inhabited by dream wraiths and spectres and other antigod illusionary beings. What does dream magic do? Obviously it may allow you to manipulate your own dreams, probably the dreams of others. Some dream magic can be brought back into the waking world, perhaps as Illusions? Is dream magic a new form of magic? Or a variant of one of the other forms of magic? Or simply a type of effect, that can be achieved with any form of magic?

I'm with Tindalos - the two neighbouring demonic Imps seem unlikely to be a coincidence. They may be the same being who foments trouble between the two nomad cultures even? Or just the same being known to both. Probably not Agimori. Not that there might not be Agimori Trickster aspects known in Prax. There are multiple Trickster aspects known in Southern Pamaltela where the Agimori originate, and Hare being the best known Trickster among the Fiwan people including the ancestors of the Praxian Basmoli. Also, its interesting that Raven is explicitly noted as being Trickster as Firebringer - but in Pent, not Prax. I would speculate that the three feathered rivals are also known to the Pentans, or is it just Raven?

Of course there are Tricksters in the Wastes and Prax - Trickster is truly universal. We know of at least one unique Praxian Trickster spirit (from the Sartar Companion -Molobanumakur, a demonic imp of Prax), plus as mentioned several other spirits that appear to have Trickster aspects.The Praxians are not so special that they can escape Trickster - no one escapes Trickster. There are Tricksters in Prax, and even some among the Praxian tribes, just like every other society in Glorantha. BUT - David is totally correct that there are no 'bonded tricksters', and thats normal. It is the Orlanthi who are weird in having a role for bonded Tricksters. And there are probably very few proscribed roles, and when there are, they are probably even less fun that being exiled and attacked as normal for a Trickster. The Praxians have no positive roles for Tricksters in their society, and generally make them outcast. This is perfectly normal and reasonable of them. Tricksters in the wastes are like most Tricksters - they do not survive because anyone has any need for them, they survive by deception and schemes, and usually get attacked and abused when these means fail. There are probably a few Trickster shrines scattered around, at oases (as if the Praxians need another reason to distrust Oasis folk) and in various other places. The Praxians probably think they are clearly bad places and attack anyone they find suspiciously loitering there. The best a Praxian Trickster can probably manage is to hide themselves as a follower of one of the acceptable spirits that has Trickster aspects (Raven, most likely). Even then, they are likely to get beaten up for their misbehaviour unless they are very fast talkers indeed, and exile from the tribe is likely. There are Trickster stories, but they always end badly for the Trickster, and in the end Waha (or whoever) throws them out of the tribe or kills them. The only Proscribed role for Tricksters known among the Orlanthi that *might* be known in Prax a little, because its an Ernalda myth and so might be known to Eiritha, is that of scapegoat. While scapegoat is, in theory, better than being murdered, its only very marginally so. So Trickster is known to the Praxians, because he is known to everyone. He is known as that bad person you have to exile from the tribe, because they are broken and there is no good that can come from keeping them.

I am among the many who would love to see this giant treatise on Gloranthan Warfare!

I would tend to use consequences of success as much as forcing people to stretches and such in adjudicating spirit combat. A magician who defeats a spirit using their Spirit Rune is able to bind it or other extract a service or destroy it. Someone who uses more generic magic skills to defeat a spirit may find success nearly as easy, but may simply drive it away with no consequences on a win. I don't want spirit combat to always be a huge danger for someone who is not an animist, but I don't want to eliminate the huge advantage animists should have in dealing with spirits either. . (which more or mimics a RuneQuest character using Spirit Shield or Spirit Block or similar spells)

Things that are so hard as to practically be impossible for any being in Glorantha by sorcerous means: - Messing with Time. Breaking the Great Compromise. Anything else that would by opposed by the majority of the gods and great powers. - Changing the fundamental nature of reality (eg creating a new Rune) (though arguably the God Learners tried) Or one could also argue that such things are against Law, and impossible to achieve with true sorcery, and so you would effectively be creating a new form of magic to achieve them, like the Red Goddess did. Messing with Time is probably one of the few serious limits, and even that is debatable. Things that are so difficult as to be normally beyond the realm of mortals, but definitely achievable by sorcery beyond mortal reach (but who knows what might happen in your game!): - destroying a large chunk of a continent. Things that are astonishingly hard, but that we know have been achieved by mortal via sorcery (and we also know to not be a good idea unless really necessary): - killing a god. - making permanent changes to the heroplane - creating a god From this we can pretty much say - there are few limits to what is achievable by sorcery in Glorantha Things that are not possible with conventional sorcery, but are almost certainly possible with weird sorcery and/or heroquesting: - Magic that directly combines opposing runes? - Sorcery that deals directly with draconic or other mysterious powers.

What can Sorcery do? Pretty much anything that magic can do in Glorantha. Which is practically anything. I can't really think of anything that sorcery can't do, though obviously there are things that other forms of magic do easier. The question is now whether it can be done, but how hard it is to do it. Some things are difficult enough that they require large complex rituals. Some are more difficult still and are effectively heroquests. Teleporting to a place you have never been to before is possible, but it might be difficult enough that it is like a great ritual to get access to a magic road that will get you there (something like this is how the mostali regained access to Jrustela). Doing it with a simple spell might be possible only for beings as great as Zzabur, maybe not even then. Think about eg the Luatha as presumably great sorcerous (as they are from the West?) beings - they are likely better than any mortal, but they still need boats to travel to new places. They can casts spells in battle, but appear not to cast spells over great distances. They can destroy whole nations, but take weeks and great magic tools and big rituals to do it. It might be possible to come up with a list of some magical Limits like those in Ars Magica, and there are a few things that are likely to be so hard that they are effectively impossible. Even then I think you could make the argument that they are only theoretically impossible The more common two questions that will come up in play all the time are whether you know how to do it, and whether you consider it right to do it. Very often not only will you not know how to do it, but your whole school will not know how to do it. You have to seek out the knowledge, which may come from seeking out ancient wisdom (often a heroquest in itself), trading or stealing it from others (sometimes a demigod or other non-mortal), or conducting research programs that may take years to lifetimes (and may be heroquests themselves). The God Learners showed that many many things that no one had previously known how to do were possible, but it took lifetimes of research by thousands of sorcerers. There is also the question of is it permissible. Even the Vadeli have things they will not do (in their case only because they do not wish to become mortal). But most Malkioni have quite strict lists of things they will not do, which may or may not variously include Tapping, using Chaos, violating caste laws, sacrifice, etc. In practice these are quite big restrictions for many. And there are probably lots and lots of rules about how to approach things that are not strictly forbidden, but are widely considered bad ideas both morally and spiritually - dealing with spirits more powerful than you can control, using pagan magic even indirectly, using sorcery learnt from sources considered to be morally suspect (such as Arkati or Vadeli).

Remember the Empire of the Wyrns Friends was a whole Empire, not just a single magical philosophy. Sure, its draconic mystic at the core, but like all Empires it was a big, complex, messy entity with a huge amount of internal variety. Plus remember draconic mysticism is a form of Illumination. No reason an Illuminate can't sorcery.

I think Satyrs have no connection to Thed or Chaos. I think its quite likely that they have some connections to pre-Chaos Ragnaglar, though, just as minotaurs have some connection to Storm Bull. It makes sense. Satyrs play wind instruments, as favoured by the air gods. They can create lust, and are associated with sexuality, as was Ragnaglar long before he became chaotic (such as the story of his initiation in the sex pit). But satyrs, just like minotaurs etc, are far more tied to their mother Velhara than their fathers.

I'll get the Uroxi to tell the Storm Khan that.... The leaders of the Lunars in Prax are subordinate to the ones in Dragon Pass, the leaders of the rebellion against the Lunars in Prax are mostly Orlanthi, and the main war leaders of the Praxians (mostly the leaders of the Bullocks, Twin Spears, and other warrior societies) end up fighting the Lunars in Dragon Pass under Argrath.

I'm hoping the range of denizens of the spirit world will be wild and varied and far from all alike, and hopefully exhibit an array of different powers etc. Some certainly should have INT, some not, etc. That said, I like the idea that Spirits are more about emotion than intellect, it helps keep sorcery and shamanism distinct in flavour. I think in general most sorcerers, or certainly most Malkioni, think mixing emotion and magic is a bad idea. I've made the analogy before that most Malkioni tend to the think of getting involved with spirits much like many modern people think of getting involved with drugs - its bad for your mental health, it makes you do crazy things, in the long run it is a terrible idea, even if sometimes it seems pleasurable or useful. Of course, just because the Malkioni feel that way doesn't mean all sorcerers feel that way - magic that does combine sorcery and spirits might be very effective (I bet those troll Arkati don't mind a bit of that) but the Malkioni consider it demonology.

Oh yes, Prax too is part of the default setting, and the Nomads too - but thats really a side theatre to the Lunar vs Orlanthi conflict, and whether the initial product covers just Dragon Pass, or Dragon Pass and Prax won't matter much as I'm sure it will be practical to play in either. I don't expect there will be enough material that most players will want to run a Pelorian game, for example.

The Orlanthi aren't going to necessarily regard Sky Captains coming down from the Sky as hostile/demons, as several of them became tribal founders of the Heortling era tribes...

I think of the Sunstand as a uniquely Gloranthan formation in any case - the centre often occupied by magicians, who have no historical equivalent.

I would assume the HeroQuest writeup in Sartar:KoH is still fairly true - they have access to both Rune Magic (through the Truth rune), and also access sorcery. There are almost certainly sages who do not know any sorcery and act purely as lawspeakers and holders of clan knowledge without the more metaphysical and magic focussed powers accessible via LM sorcery.

Note that Uleria in Peloria is disapproved as (as noted) by Dara Happans solar cults, but approved of by Pelandans and probably by the peasant religions worshipped by most people across Peloria (eg I think Uleria is considered friendly by Lodril and Oria and their variants such as Turos). The mentions of Uleria in the Entekosiad are much more positive than the ones in GROY. So the nobles frown on the Ulerians, but there are probably many in less exalted circles. The Lunars probably have no issues with Ulerians either.

I'm not saying it always comes from the North now, I'm saying it came from the North, and that is still understood to be the case. Even the chaos that now lives to the south is specifically understood to have come from the North originally (it's the remnants of Vovisibor, who is always associated with the North). But due to the foolishness of the Artmali, Sikkanos, Bolongo, etc (practically everyone except the wise Doraddi, obviously) chaos still lingers everywhere. Even on the plains, which is why we get charnjibbers every dry season. Its a mythic thing. The actual presence of chaos in the south isn't going to change that. Of course chaos doesn't come from the South. The true south is where Um the holy mountain is, where the gods live on a mountain among the cleansing fire that destroys all chaos. Just because there is some chaos a little bit further to the south from here changes nothing. The old men will laugh, and say did you not know that enemies can also walk around, and leave the place where they are born?

I don't think your point is well proved. Yes, monsters emerge from the Nargan and are a major threat to the southern grasslands - but to much of the rest of the continent (especially parts of Laskal, most of Fonrit and Mirelos, coastal Elamle, all of Kimos) it just means that the southern plains are approaching the ambient chaos levels they've been living with for years.

No, the Nargan desert is ONE place that chaos comes from in modern Pamaltela. There is the Forest of Disease in Laskal, there is the Mother of Monsters (both the single biggest chaotic monster in Glorantha, and a living chaos monster factory). there are greater hydras in a number of places (most of which produce lesser hydras by the truck load), the gorgers in Kimos, vast underground nests of grue in Fonrit, and plenty more. Plus various chaos monsters all over the place Vadeli and Artmali ruins over half the continent. etc. The Nargan is where much of the chaos that threatens the southern plains come from, but not considered a major source of chaos by anyone else. And mythically, chaos comes from the North, it just gets its big defeat in the south.

If I was to take a guess, it would be that Curustus in Jrustela, being the biggest remnant of Mostals Magnetic Mountain, is the only magnetic pole of Glorantha.

Chaos in Pamaltela originally came from the terrible northern mountain Bandaku. But Pamalt destroyed it. It's true there is some still left in the Nargan, but there is chaos left in many places now - even a little bit in the Aganali lands where Pamalt rules. There is certainly quite a lot of it in Fonrit, certainly.