davecake

WA-hua - No-Mind is a concept mostly associated with Zen Buddhism.

Qing yuan has the monastery of Perfect Stillness. This is from Enron of Vormain, so this a non-Kralori practice. Also practiced by Kahar.

What connection is there, if any, between the monkeys of Hou Shi and the baboons of Prax?

The Dancing Spirit Masters would seem to be, effectively, Hsunchen Korgatsu shamanism that isn't restricted to hsunchen?

Does anyone have the chaosium Thieves World, and have any ideas how one might use it in modern Glorantha? Or Carse, for that matter.

Ebe the Wild Man would definitely have been Grandfather Mortal according to the God Learners, and his modern day 'cult' is ancestor worship, just like Daka Fal or the Hsunchen Old Man and Old Woman. But the connection through Aptanace and his sons is significant and useful, I think most professions are hereditary, and the ability to contact ancestors is of significant practical everyday value, as you can contact ancestors who are masters of your profession and able to give useful advice, etc. This applies even to, and is particularly useful for, professions like 'sorcerer' or 'priest'. As far as the idea of Aptanace as ruler, or an Aptanace empire, I don't think the Kralori would think of it quite that way, but I am sure the 700 professions includes professions like king, headman, warlord, etc and of course they are credited with ruling a part of the country. Is Aptanace a sage in the sense it is used in the East Isles, meaning in Revealed Mythology a sage is defined as being a wise mystic? I do not think Aptanace shows any signs of asceticm, or indeed mysticism other than the title Sage. Mysticism and asceticism aren't synonymous, but pretty close - austerities seem pretty basic to eastern mystic practice. (Without gettting too much into Gloranthan equivalents of Buddhist concepts of the middle way, that are still somewhat ascetic compared to typical life).

Metsyla's Seventeen Lessons to Perfection is perhaps the first school of mysticism known to Kralorela, perhaps still the leading non-draconic school? This is the first mention of people being taught mysticism.

I really like description of Kralori religion here, even though it's a kind of rough sketch with many details still not described. Many many minor and specialized spirits, lesser gods, and sorcerous entities. Religion as a more diverse and pragmatic matter than most of Glorantha. The remaining confusion around mysticism in general, and Darudism is particular, is a problem. Is mysticism something that grants very little magic, or are they 'the most powerful of all' who can 'defy any of the gods'? its unclear. And the Godunya cult seems to similar to how it as in RQ3 - a system for shuttling generic magical power around for pragmatic imperial purposes, of no practical use for most of its citizens (or for players).

Anyone know anything more about spearbirds? This is the only reference I am aware of. And what other flying creatures does the Kralorela military use?

Sadly I largely agree, Gianni. Kralorela just isn't quite there - it clearly has huge differences to China, but it's very unclear how those might translate into play. And Darudism really isn't developed enough as it stands.

Kralorelan military - presuming the Kralorelan military is not radically different from the Chinese, i guess the sword the military units wield (that are not even their primary weapon) are cheap single edged sabres, while the swords that 'swordsmen' and more heroic types might use are different, probably straight double edged blades of high quality metal, either like the Goujian Sword if you want a historical reference, or like the Green Destiny Sword from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon if you want a less realistic pop culture one.

and frankly, I find your alternative theory is way too focussed on discarding interesting ideas that don't fit with your theory. The Purification rune as Moon makes the Zistorites less interesting, makes the Machine ruins less interesting, makes God Forgot less interesting, to me. Zistorites were unique and Interesting, and turning them into just another bunch of Lunar sorcerers is not. The same with Purification rune as Chaos too. Let Zistor be Zistor. i'm happy to say that maybe the Wand of Seven Phases is a result of experimentation with the Purification rune. Perhaps it was made of blue moon material, and turned red after Purification. But the interesting questions here are that we essentially know virtually nothing about God Forgot prior to the Second Age. Not that much after Steelfall either to be honest. So i'd rather not simply tie everything we know about God Forgot to Zistorites, but try to illuminate the centuries before and after that period. If we assume that the God forgot area is part of the lands that are recovered from the oceans in the Trembling Shore heroquest (note Vingkot is said to have fought the Worcha Rage at Whitewall, according to the map in Heortling History, implying that Whitewall was basically on the shore at that time), then the details of that give us some of the Godtime history of God Forgot. The description of that heroquest in Arcane Lore calls the movement power of the water Entika, it is the power that gives Worcha its ability to never be still, so it is essentially a name for the tidal power - and it is all concentrated in this region in Worcha, and then lost to the sea powers afterwards, diverted. I think we can assume the Ingareens arrived as passengers on a waertagi dragonship. Perhaps they are stranded after the Waertagi are defeated by the Vingkotlings at Worchas rage, perhaps they arrive later. They are not Waertagi themselves (though they probably continue to deal with the Waertagi through the First age). They could be from New Malkonwal, but most of what we know about them implies they follow the Brithini way pretty closely, so maybe not. I like the idea that they learn more about the Blue Moon powers from the Zaranistangi in the First Age, if only because it explains where the Zaranistangi are between Sechaul and suddenly turning up in Slontos in the Second Age. Tides and Secrets and hiding from their enemies (they made it through the Darkness by hiding), and subtle magic attacks, mostly. I know Joerg says tides don't matter in God Forgot, but I look at the map and think they could matter a lot. i'm sure there are lot of that marshland that is only accessible at low tide. And the accounts of the Machine Wars mention the tides and tidal flats very frequently. I think its very odd to say tidal powers are absent from there when the tides are mentioned so much. it interesting but far away. And used by scary enemies..But they know some secrets. Maybe they, like the dwarves, regard it as proof of the success of some magical project. i don't think they have a Blue Moon faith, i think they approach Blue Moon powers through sorcerous means. i think if they taught it to just anybody, we would have known about it before now. And I see no reason why they would depart from the traditional extreme secrecy associated with Blue Moon. I think they obey Belintar rather than worship. But it does make you wonder. There are a bunch of possible theories. Did Belintar prove he was a Talar? Did he really break the bank, at Casino Town and their Brithini lifestyle demands they honour the debt for some reason? Is the Talar compromised somehow? Was Belintar blue because he was an ancient Zzaburi? Who knows. What we do know is that the Talar of God Forgot has always supported Belintar, and his wizards predicted his appearance (which is quite something, as Belintar appears to have come as a complete surprise to everyone else). Where did I say worship? i do not think the Ingareens are secret theists. They are sorcerers. Thats certainly an interesting connection. I like it! A limited understanding of the tidal powers, but thats sorcerers for ya.

On the subject of Illuminated/mystic God Learners - Malkioneranism may not have been the dominant God Learner belief (that seems to be Makanism, which contended with Malkioneranism0, but it sure sounds suspiciously like a bunch of Illuminates according to MSE pg 42 - strange, new practices, great magic that does bad things, and even name checks Gbaji and the devil. i like the idea that the malkioneranists intellectually understood illumination as contact with the mind of Makan. The irensavilists (and Talorites) agree, but think Makan is the evil demi-urge, so it is a bad idea (well, at least if you approach Makan without Joy in your heart, and a Pure will). The Makanists think you should approach the mind of Makan by the more conventional method of learning a lot of stuff and so gaining intellectual understanding. (the malkioneranists may not have been a very organised school of Illumination - it is quite possible that they do not know how to teach using managable means, but rely on heroquest tactics like heroquesting to the green age, which can Illuminate people but at the likely cost of their sanity).

haha I knew there was at least one more 'backwards name' somewhere - the MSE on page 39, in the Giorgos text, is a rebuttal of the mistaken beliefs of Gerfej snd Drachir, cleaely unrelated to anyone in this discussion thread....

Mine was delivered this afternoon.

There may well be many people who think the Syphon is doing the right thing. And, given the references to it as evil, some who don't. I think if there were krill-filtering merfolk they are gone, but some baleen whales, probably some entire species, are sapient and worship the sea pantheon. (i think one of the many reasons the Ludoch and the Malasp hate one another, is the Ludoch think the sapient cetaceans are sacred, and the Malasp think they are delicious)

i know its three separate sources, Peter, but the history of the wand is the only thing that seems to link them. That one discussion of the history of the Wand is the only thing that links the Zistorites and the Moon other than both taking place in the same general geographical area. I also find it unconvincing that the elemental associations of every other Sixth were well established at the Dawn, but one was somehow a thing that happened in the late Second Age. i do totally agree with you that Jar-Eel did not invent the connection. I agree with you that it may well be that they thought of the Lunar power as Blue, and then it turned Red later. Quite possibly even they attempted to create a Blue Moon wand, applied their Purification magic, and were surprised that the result was Red. But that isn't the same as saying Purification is moon, just that the Moon can be Purified just like anything can (and i'm sure the Zistorites were particularly excited about it as proof of their theories). But the Purification Rune was supposed to act on all things and all Elements. I do think the Zistorites knew of the Moon rune, the God-Learners knew of the blue moon. They did not know about the Red, unless some of them had done some very deep research and were very insightful. It may even be that the area was not associated with the Moon rune until after the Zistorite wars and somehow the rising of the goddess. I do think providing an alternative explanation is reasonable. i think that God forgot, being directly south of Heortland and Dragon Pass, is fairly likely what remains of the disputed land of the many flood era battles between the Storm and Sea powers to reclaim the land. And while the Right Arm islands are, while still divided between land and sea, are essentially claimed by Sea, the Left arm islands seem very much still disputed. And the term for land disputed between land and sea is tidal - which is obviously Blue Moon power in Glorantha. The Ingareens arrive there via Waertagi ships, known to be heavily involved in those Air/storm battles. While the blue moon powers are not widely known, because 1) goddess of secrets, right? 2) the ingareens approach these powers sorcerously and 3) no one except Belintar pays much attention to the magical practices of the Ingareens, the tidal powers are significant given at least half of God Forgot is marsh (and without the sea powers to balance). The Ingareens could have learnt about the blue moon powers from Artmali (the Asure fleet could be anywhere on the coast), but more like;y the Zaranistangi (directly to the east in the god time, directly to the West in the Second age, and we know almost nothing of their actions in between in the pre-dawn and First Age, so quite likely passed through God Forgot at some point).

The Syphon takes water out of the ocean and pours it on the land. So obviously not really good as far as the sea gods are concerned. I do actually think the water magicians in Prax think that Waha using the Spunders river to wash away the devil is wrong, but hardly anyone cares what the Thirstless society think if Waha thinks it is a good idea.

Noting also that one of reasons why e.g. The Delainen Hills are able to maintain fruits, nuts and spices found nowhere else in the world is likely that they have carefully preserved the worship rites of goddesses associated with them.

I find the association of the Red Moon with the core doctrine of the Zistorites as an extrapolation of a single magic item to be a very long bow indeed. We already know the Zistorites included magical specialists in every Rune they knew of, clearly their Moon specialists created an item to have ready access to a source of Lunar power, but it seems unlikely that it's both the central item of Zistorite doctrine and a vital connection to the core magic of God Forgot, yet is sitting around in Duke Raus's house, seems unlikely. FWIW, if God Forgot is apparently associated with the Moon Rune, I'd be more inclined to associate it with the Blue Moon, both as goddess of secrets and tidal powers.

10,000 is a lot of goddesses. lets assume that it includes many minor earth goddesses, 2 dozen Ernalda sub-cults, 50 troll ancestors, 20 Kralorelan goddesses, a dozen Pamaltelan goddesses, etc and I'm still well over 9,000 goddesses short..... I'm guessing many of the goddesses are either effectively names on huge lists of deities that aren't worshipped individually meaningfully (e.g. Lists of hundreds of earth elemental that protect specific sites), or notable ancestors declared deities after death (essentially, hero cults, but less dramatic - or like the 48 Old Ones of the Eiritha cult, but many more than 48 of them). Also quite likely that while the grain goddesses and domestic animal goddesses etc get all the press, there are goddesses for practically every species known. E.g. Voria ceremonies include the names of goddesses dedicated to every plant, especially every flower and berry and fruit, in spring. Goddesses for every individual healing herb, for every spice, every lumber tree. Every species of bird has its goddess. There are goddesses of voles and hedgehogs and weasels. Sub-goddesses under Uralda etc for different breeds of domestic animal. Goddesses for different minerals invoked at Asrelia ceremonies. Goddesses under the land goddesses for different geographical features. I think its the Esrolian mode of religion. Ceremonies are long, and mention lots of names, and lots of statues, and show how important their major deities are by showing the big lists of deities that serve them. And, of course, its magically real - even if many of these deities are very minor, some no more than a powerful ancestor or an allied spirit level, being able to have hundreds of such beings appear at ceremonies is an advantage. And while huge specific lists of names are going to be used in a very different manner to Western sorcery (mostly), it's still a big magical advantage to be able to invoke deities that are very specific to the task at hand. Keeping track of such huge lists of divine beings (and related genealogies, especially given the Esrolian presence of the dead) may even be one reason why Nochet is a lozenge wide center for the Lhankor Mhy cult.

The art notes for the picture of Harrek and Gunda http://www.glorantha.com/harrek-the-berserk-and-gunda-the-guiltyanother-lovely-picture-by-mike-perry/ And google= post https://plus.google.com/108191783232173529938/posts/cdojaJYnXkJ The hilarious part about this picture is that Gunda's look is deliberately not based on anything historical, but quite deliberately based on early 20th century childrens book illustrations and Wagnerian opera costumes!

The Unicorn King of Huntwood - compare the Monoceros in Anaxials Roster

Very insightful stuff, Joerg. I love the idea that the Uncolings survive only by mostly spending most of their time in reindeer shape. Maybe they do this every winter, then recover their human forms, and human clothes, every summer? Does this even apply to children, who are not initiated? Could any possible Polar Light magic be connected at all to Altinela? There definitely seems to be a very consistent theme of the greatest Hsunchen shamans are serpent/dragon people (Hykim or Korgatsu), who represent a unifying over culture for the Hsunchen (and this extends to the Doraddi, who presumably learnt many of their greatest shamanic secrets from the Fiwan). Human non-hsunchen mostly perceive this as the Horned Man instead (and the doraddi see both the serpent and the horns). Wooly rhinos, mastodons, mammoths - According to Anaxials Roster, mammoths are god creatures, created by Valind, and Mastodons are spirit creatures, created by Valind, and the Elephant wars their part of the general god time Animal wars between god animals and spirit animals. But the Guide seems to reverse this, and the Mammoths are the spirit creatures, and the Mastodons presumably the creatures of Valind. The wooly rhinos (kunkorn) are also god-creatures created by Vadrus. It is possible that there could be bears that are not represented among the Rathori, if they were god bears. But we haven't heard anything about them, and the Rathori would likely war on them, so still probably not. Are the Neechen perhaps a human Valind worshipping culture?

I'd heard essentially nothing about Ketha before this, though of course there is the name kethaela, or her father Entru . It seems very much as if Ketha is another name for Esrola, used by the pig people. Ketha is associated with the boar people at the dawn, but certainly there is nothing about the name Entru associated with the Kethaela area during time, as far as I can tell, and for the most part they seem to have left for Slontos during the Darkness, presumably displaced by the Vingkotlngs (the conflict recorded in the Arrowmound story of the battle against Harand?). It is odd that the name seems to have persisted - whether this indicates that Kethaela and Esrola are not really the same goddess is worth discussing? Thereafter there seem to be, more or less, the Western pig people, who are proudly Entruli up until Palangio conquers them (and we can talk about later when we get to Slontos), and the Eastern, or Harandings, who have already accepted Orlanth as their leader god by the dawn, but are not Vingkotlings,