Tywyll

2 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

A&E #106 had part 1 (three pages) of the Ritual Abandonment Sorcery article by Tim Walters. He doesn't seem to have ever finished it.

Oh, interesting. Do you know any details? Is it worth my trying to buy a pdf of the issue to read? 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It also depends on if you are talking about specific magazines only or also including fanzines, as a many of the latter included articles and game content.

Also whether you are asking specifically about RQ2 only or also including RQ3. If the latter, there was also AH's Heroes which ran to 10 issues.

Nope, anything out there that is obtainable (preferably in pdf) is of interest to me. And yes, I'm mostly looking for RQ2 right now. 

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

Have a look through here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hcupKD4qfHFX2oqSHfK-7f3NsO1y0vhBH7jK7atC8dY/edit?usp=sharing

It's by @Hyperlexic, many magazines are listed.

There are still copies of Wyrm's footprints around, with the best articles. 

So looking at this, I also noticed an Alarums and Excusions issue that supposedly deals with RQ2 Sorcery?!? Issue 106? Anyone know anything about that?

Also, where can you get Wyrm's Footprint issues?

13 hours ago, David Scott said:

Have a look through here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hcupKD4qfHFX2oqSHfK-7f3NsO1y0vhBH7jK7atC8dY/edit?usp=sharing

It's by @Hyperlexic, many magazines are listed.

There are still copies of Wyrm's footprints around, with the best articles. 

Thanks for the list. But also, where?

So, besides Different Worlds, Dragon, White Dwarf, and Wyrm's Footprints, were there any gaming magazines that featured content for RQ2? Those are the only ones I can find/have read about (I can't find Wyrm's Footprints at all...wish that were getting reprinted!). 

Note that I'm not looking for Glorantha material specifically (like a Con pamphlet or something), more articles and adventures if any exist out there.

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

  

Okay, here is your one  sample.

 

Thank you very much!

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 

I can think of a few reasons:

• They needed to keep RQ3 Troll experience in line with the other professions and races in RQ3., so they couldn't have a profession that gives +10% per year when RQ3 only gives +5% max.

Sorry, no, what I meant was...why ditch this system for everyone.

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

• The roll to get the points for skills over 50% could lead to a wide variance between "starting" characters. If you take two characters and give them each 10 years previous experience, one could end up with a weapon at over 140% (with modifiers and lots of luck), while another could start at only 50%. That's a huge variance, and can be a tough challenge for a GM to deal with when writing adventures. 

Easy enough to cap (no starting skills over X% for example)

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

• Issuing previous experience in 5% and 10% increments doesn't allow for much variation between skill scores. A skill either gets 5%, 10% or nothing.

That's true, but the AH system of x1% per year ends up providing pointless bonuses. An average +7% to a skill is basically pointless. 

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

• Issuing previous experience in 5% and 10% increments doesn't allow for many skills to be improved (only eight). That sort of forces them to focus only on the most significant skills. The ability to break things down in 1% increments lets them expand things to cover more skills. So things like Perception skills and First Aid tend to get neglected unless they are a primary focus for a character (i.e. Hunter or Healer). Just look at how many more skills the RQ3 Noble gets. The RQ2 Noble doesn't even get to improve his ability to parry!

Well, it allows as many as they decide to give the bonuses to. I mean, look at RQG for ex. Limiting previous experience to 5 or 8 skills was a pretty poor design choice to start with. 

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

• They probably wanted to keep the starting skill scores a bit lower. Prior to Elric! skills over 100% were only reached after considerable playing time. 

That's fair. But I think they could have accomplished that while still allowing characters to be more capable. Random AH RQ characters are pretty weak sauce. Stronger than RQ2 of course, but still weak.

Considering how close this is to RQ3, I wonder why they ditched it for the weaker RQ3 version.

Noble please. Thank you!

15 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I'd be willing to write out one, as an example. I think that would be considered fair use. I'd even let you pick which one. If you want I'll look for the box set and post a list of the professions for you to pick from. 

That's assuming no one from Chaosium as any objections.

Yes please. Would you mind telling me the professions?

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Is RQ2 Trollpack available in the RQ Classics line? I can't remember if that is one of the ones still to be done.

It is supposed to be but that was like, what, years ago?

Thanks for that! I don't suppose anyone would be willing to write out the professions? Are there a lot of them?

11 minutes ago, Kloster said:

That would mean the 1st short sword armed trollkin would attack (after all the spear armed one) with the opponent suffering a -240% to Parry (and the last a -340%). Ouch!

Kloster

Assuming he were dumb enough to allow himself to be surrounded like that, didn't have his own allies, bothered with parrying (he might let his armor+protection spells take the hit), etc, etc.

6 hours ago, Kloster said:

This I agree wholeheartedly. The addition of Sword Trance, the Attack/Parry skills fused together and the way RQG manages skills over 100% makes this deadly for non intelligent opponents.

Kloster

Not just nonintelligent opponents.

8 hours ago, Zozotroll said:

The whole trance thing keeps it from being broken.  If you actually enforce that, nobody is going to extend it for a season.  You will die of dehydration if nothing else.  I do not at all see it as broken.  Lots of things can be unbalancing if the DM doesnt enforce the downsides with the upsides

If the Trance were part of RAW, I'd agree with you, but its not. 

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Hold the phone there Tywyll. I don't think there is a consensus that the spell is broken. You might have things about it that you don't like, at least in conjunction with some of the other rules in RQG, but that doesn't mean that everybody is up in arms over this. I'd say the reaction about this so far is mixed at best.If you feel the need to houserule this and want to post your houserule that's fine, but it's hasn't been show to be "clearly broken". At least not yet. Functionally it works, and seems to be fairly easy to understand an implement.  So I would say it isn't "broken" per say. You,(and others) might not like how it works, but it does work. 

So far, no one has pointed out any mechanical way in which it is balanced in RAW. No one has addressed the simple and cheap means of having an all season boost. No one has accounted for how it breaks the RQ2 rules. As such, I'm perfectly happy with saying its broken.

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Plus even if you implement your fix for this, what will you do if someone shows up with lots of bladesharp? You  got the same anti-parry "problem" in a easier to use format, that can be cast on others. And the +1d4 per point to damage is going to be far more broken than what you are trying to fix. That's a game changer.  Just three points of this (+3d4) would be like adding 16 points of Strength (+2d6)!

 

 

Getting 'lots' of Bladesharp is much harder to accomplish and is more an end game sort of deal. Even if they have it, it only lasts 2 minutes so it is hardly gamebreaking. Also, argueably it wouldn't trigger antiparry since the bonus isn't a skill bonus but an item/situational bonus (see the thread previously on this board on how and when Bladesharp is applied to a split attack). 

And yet the suggestion I'm putting forward has been in the game since at least RQ2 without breaking anything. The main problem with that bonus damage is when it connects. +100% skill guarantees that it will. +30% not so much. 

Fixes-

Since the spell is clearly broken, here are some fixes I think that would make it work better.

1) Make it like Crush, stackable 1 point spell, each point adds +10% and +1d4 damage.

2) Make it stackable and each level adds +10(15, 20)% to skill. No MP involved.

3) Make a global rule that magic boosts for skills bringing them over 100% do not function like anti-parry.

4) Make a Tranced character unable to act outside of combat-only offensive actions can be taken, no skills beyond attack and parry, only cast offensive magic, etc. This still leaves the abuse but would remove it as an Extendable spell.

31 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Interesting. It used to. THeat was one of the issues about RQG that was brought up in the past.  So is there a way,to extend Spirit Magic anymore?

Yes, and that's the crux of the matter. I don't think Sword Trance is unreasonable or a problem. You get to spend MP to get a bonus to hit. It's about on par with Bladesharp. Yeah you can burn more MPs into it than you probably can with Bladesharp, but then you are spending lots of MPs and temporarily losing some rune magic to do so. 

The question is if long term extension is a problem, at least when combined with a spell like this, where a characters can boost the benefits by spending more MPs? And I honestly don't think we will really know the answer to that for awhile yet. Probably not until RQG has been around for a couple of years, and we see what happens. If everybody starts houseruling things or not.

 

 

I think it WOULDN"T be a problem if it weren't for the way skills over 100% are handled. That's, to me, the real issue. If there was no anti-parry, this wouldn't be a big deal.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

They impede a Humakti as much as any other character ...  if being subject to those ranged attacks is a danger to them, it's just as much a danger to SwordTrance'd characters!

Yeah, which means it is irrelavent to the discussion. 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

And don't forget that Sword Trance isn't the only Rune Spell floating around... Earth/Fertility Aldryami might object with ArrowTrance, for example.  And there's no reason to think (as suggested above) that there won't be a "Maul Trance" (or something comparable) in some Darkness cult; or just Berserker/Fanaticism or a bunch or MP's dumped into Bludgeon or something (he may hit less, but a Great Troll with a Maul probably only needs to hit once to end the fight... ) ,

That doesn't fix the problem. That just makes it worse. 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

And not every magical spirit attacks via Spirit Combat.  Sword Trance doesn't help you avoid falling into that big ol' hole in the ground, or being covered by the tons of earth, from a gnome; or being sucked underwater by an Undine; etc etc etc.

Nor will Sword Trance prohibit you from avoiding those things in the same way that anyone else does. What it will do is give you an "I win" button for combat.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

You can be sure that any Humakti who are easily carving their way through the melee ranks will suddenly be the preferred target for ALL the casters and ranged-combat specialists.

That's the same for anyone with high skill. So what?

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Huh.  Well, that would NOT be my own expectation as a GM or player (in any edition of RQ (or any other Gloranthan RPG)).  I'd expect some of the casters and summoners to be just as badass in their own way as the Humakti is in theirs.  Same for the missile-specialists.  And I would expect the "majority" of encounters to NOT be limited to melee-fighters only.

I didn't say only, I said that they will have melee in them. Look at the majority of published modules. The purely physical encounters far outweigh the purely metaphysical ones. 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

YGMV, and clearly does.

But don't forget that this is RQ, and numbers STILL tell...  Even low chances to hit add up, when enough attack-rolls get made... And even with a 240+ on %Attk, splitting the attack 4 ways, or 6 ways, means the mighty will, eventually, still fall.

Sword Trance is powerful, yes!

Broken... I don't see it that way, no.

I don't understand what you are getting at with the comment about the mighty will fall. 

None of what you said really addresses my concerns. Yes, the game master can refuse to throw a melee fighter at the player. Yes, the game master can arbitrarily give the trollkin skills in the 200% range. Yes the game master can throw the Chaos Bat at the Humakt...

None of that makes any difference to whether this spell is imbalancing or poorly designed. 

43 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

I tend to beleive that any 'Trance' spell should be handled as the Aldryami 'Arrow Trance' used to be. While the spell is in effect you are in a combat focussed trance and cannot use any skill other than to attack with the trance boosted skill. You cannot eat, drink, sleep or converse while the spell is in effect. That would make any extension lasting more than a day impractical.

That would be a definite way to balance it!

1 hour ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

With this sort of spell e.g. Axe Trance in RQ3 I always used a house rule that you couldn't more than double your base skill.

Definitely a start, but still doesn't have the same issues that it did in RQ3. In this system, where skills over 100 cancel out the opponent's skill, you have a huge advantage that didn't exist under RQ3. Having +100% is great, but it doesn't do squat to an opponent's skill. IN RQG it cancel's an opponent's skill out, which is MUCH stronger. 

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Extension is described as a separate spell. In addition, Jason explained in the Core Rules question thread that extension spells only " makes the spell last longer ", and that Dismiss is not affected by Extension. I think the answer is the same for Dispel Magic.

Kloster

FAir enough, and good to know. Is there an official errata where this sort of thing is kept? I don't fancy having to read every thread to find where things are fixed.

1 minute ago, Psullie said:

I think you are too focused on combat being the only solution. Having a fully pumped Humakti isn't going to help one bit when the party is attacked by magic, spirits or those using missile weapons. I'd allow the PC be a 'one-trick' pony but then run a game without any combat, let boredom be the control factor. 

Also whose to say that other cults cult not have the same or similar magic. A Zorak Zoranni with 'Mace Trance'?? RuneQuest is very magic rich and these kind of magical arms races are possible, just not very interesting to play

I think doing everything you can to stop a player from using the abilities their character should possess is a pretty dick move. Certainly not something I would do as a GM.

You are also missing a key point I was making...this isn't an expensive choice on the part of the character. A character with 10 RP still has 50% of their points to play with. 

Also, if you made all of a Humakt's magic irrelevant (the majority of it is combat focused, whether they do it a point or two at a time or a bunch at once), you are punishing a player for their character choice rather than just telling them up front you aren't going to run a combat focused game. 

2 hours ago, styopa said:

I'd toyed IMG with the idea of capping the strength of spirit magic spell to caster's POW/3 FRU meaning only someone POW 16+ could even cast heal 6....Without it, we quickly discovered the moment someone in the party managed to lay a hand on heal6, the loss/reattachment of a limb became trivial... and I'm not sure it should be, ever?

 

I guess it depends on your setting. Certainly Glorantha this is the case...in fact the new edition talks about how the prevalence of magical healing changes the dynamics and culture of violence.

8 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

We have had to houserule some additional downsides to playing with it extended. I began our campaign with the spell and quickly found an mp crystal which gave an extra 12 MP. This let my Humakti just get bonkers. Even without extension I was rolling around with 300 to Hit and Parry. I tried to suggest using extension with it and my GM basically said, 'as long as you don't mind being a Sword Zombie all season.' So we sorta ruled that it has complicating Mental Effects that you wouldn't want to extend off the battlefield. 

That seems to me to be the only reasonable way to handle it. I just wonder what the penalties should be.

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Doesn’t sound broken to me, sounds more like a gaming style / balance / minimaxer problem, but I run very combat light games. A Humakti would be useful in any game, but if you are going to play your character as a one trick pony isn’t it going to be problematic. Alternatively just up the opponents, tough adventurers are going to attract tough adversaries. As the lesser characters are slaughtered, the mighty survive (and then the adventure is over). Runequest does have a combat engine, but it’s not the main aspect of adventuring is it. 

The point of the problem is that it doesn't require the character be a one trick pony. RP only come back once a Season, so any use of RP reduces a character's options. A beginning character can arguably pull this tactic off. A Humakt with 10+ Runepoints can pull this off and have tons to spare.