Jeff

Other than Sartar himself, only Dorasar and Terasarin managed to found cities. New Pavis in 1550, Alone in 1583.

It is something all of Sartar's cities used. It comes from the Holy Country (see Pavis City Guide page 14).

As an aside, all of this helps me keep in mind that New Pavis is Sartarite city. Want to see how Sartarite cities operate and don't want to wait until Boldhome and Jonstown descriptions get published? Look at the Pavis materials for RQ2 or HQG. New Pavis is also architecturally more Sartarite than folk give credit. The main adaptations the Sartarites made in New Pavis are: 1. the roof is flat so that water can be gathered, instead of thatched or with tilted roofs of tile or wood; and 2. timber is much more expensive in New Pavis so it is not used as much for support except in public and wealthy buildings. But Swenstown and New Pavis probably look a lot like each other except for the roofs.

And that's part of the problem. I'm not saying anything new here - all of the stuff in that original post comes from either WBRM or the history of Sartar Greg wrote back in 1981 (which became the CHDP, but was actually written long before). New Pavis is a Sartarite city - and its institutions, architecture, etc are Sartarite. It has some adaptions to being in the River of Cradles - just like Roman colonies in Syria or Britain made adaptations to the local environment. But a Sartarite who comes to New Pavis will find that city surprisingly familiar - even if the landscape, weather, and the animals are not.

Source: Pavis. A middle class freeman’s dwelling is a common building. This house measures from 10-20 meters on a side. If square, a shape popular among Earth worshipers, 15 meters to a side is common. This rectangular style is a carry over from the hill dwelling barbarians and reflects some rustic throwbacks among some of the most conservative families of the city. Those "hill dwelling barbarians" are of course the Sartarites who settled New Pavis and Pavis County.

KoDP (and for that matter, our Taming of Dragon Pass campaign - which had a big influence on both KoDP and the HW material) doesn't describe Sartar. It describes PRE-Sartar. The game is set prior to Sartar's roads, cities, and trade. With perfect 20/20 hind-sight, KoDP had more Anglo-Saxon window-dressing than was appropriate. A great game, but we know the Sartarites look different and dress different from that. But it is a computer game and it is perfectly fine for some of the window-dressing to be different. If you find it helpful to throw on an Anglo-Saxon/Norse veneer on the Orlanthi - by all means, do it!

To be honest, I find "Koschei, a Free Carl man of Culbrea" equally flat. It seems as wrong as saying "Koschei, Pleblian gens Culbrea." In HQG, we dropped carl, cottar, and thrall. I wish I had done that in the Guide to be honest. I don't think those are even good translations of the Orlanthi terms. Carl just means "free man" - which is fine, but that already exists in English. I suspect the Orlanthi word for "free person" is a pretty important word for them. Greg and I hypothesised that it is something like Karling, but honestly that's just a cheap use of Old German. And I agree that Theyalan is not PIE - for one thing the names we have don't come anywhere close to it. Cottar means "someone who lives in a cottage" - which isn't quite what a semi-free landless tenant in Sartar is. I like semi-free because ties into Free. Also I think that is the Orlanthi word. Thane - Greg operated on the belief it meant "horse man" when actually it means "servant" - which is not the basis of the title. Thrall - another Norse word when we have a perfectly good English word "slave", "Unfree" might work better though as I suspect that is the Orlanthi word. So until I find a linguist I enjoy working with who doesn't just want to make PIE but creates something that sounds Orlanthi - I am happy mainly using good English words.

And what they are really useful for is as a spell-casting platform. It is a lot easier casting an active spell while riding on a chariot than on a horse. Not to mention that it is easier to augment while atop a chariot than on a horse!

I love that one!

Like these:

A few more morsels to think about - while Sartar was free, the city ring (which remember is chosen by a combination of tribal leaders, major temples, and the Prince) agree on various taxes (especially on traders), purchase grain and meat from the local farmers, and so on. The citizens of the city choose one member of the city ring as Mayor - who also gets to lead the militia. During the Lunar Occupation, the rebelling tribes (like the Culbrea and Cinsina) have had to operate outside of that structure, but now that Sartar is liberated, there is much incentive to return to it, just now that the folk who make the decisions are mainly former rebels (and no Lunars at all). For a few seasons things are still "rebel-led" but how long before the city rings decide that it is not such a bad thing to welcome Etyries back and place Seven Mothers worshipers under their protection? Or maybe some cities do that, and others do not. And when Kallyr dies, for a year there is no Prince. Perhaps the mayors become de facto regional warlords, and supplant the tribal kings? After the Dragonrise, the times are a-changing!

Among the first things Greg ever wrote about the Kingdom of Sartar was the following: "<Sartar's> magic turned smart men into chieftains, good men into loyal followers, and enemies into pack beasts. It is said that he took over the valley without a fight, though that is an exaggeration since others did his fighting for him. But the transition was an easy one and he soon organized the robbers into a principality. After marrying the Feathered Horse Queen, he was named King and Dragon Pass rapidly grew in power and prestige. Under Sartar's rule, the tribes turned from pillage to trade. Sartar and the Queen set up tax posts, guides, and treasuries. Sartar also built roads and forts to protect the traders from possible nomad raids. He fostered literacy, experimentation, and luxuriousness upon his subjects. His short-lived dynasty grew and soon would have rivalled any empire for sheer splendor had it survived." When I was working with Greg on the Guide to Glorantha, we decided to go back to WBRM as a touchstone. RQG very much reflects the Glorantha of WBRM, the Redline Histories, Pavis, Cults of Terror, and King of Sartar. But it does require rethinking some of the assumptions from the HW period. First and foremost - the nature of the Kingdom of Sartar itself. Under the reign of the House of Sartar, Boldhome and the other cities were wealthy from trade. The Prince had substantial revenues at his disposal. Masons could build impressive stone buildings, grand temples to the Lightbringers could be founded - including markets, libraries, and hospitals, paved roads could facilitate trade, mercenaries could fight for the Prince, and so on. Caravans carrying goods and luxuries from all over the world traveled through WIlmskirk, Boldhome, and Jonstown, paying a toll for Sartar's protection (and for the convenience of the roads, inns, etc.). Tribal kings, chiefs, priestesses, etc. all looked to the Prince for gifts and support. Cities bought large amounts grain and meat, and their citizens had the right to an allotment of the public stores. It should be reminded that New Pavis is stereotypically Sartarite in its layout, its political institutions (mayor, public granaries and warehouses, etc.). It is unusual in the presence of the Big Rubble, the nomads, and so many adventurers seeking treasure in the Rubble. It is not unusual in its institutions. There's no question about it, under the rule of the House of Sartar, Sartar was rich. Probably richer than Tarsh (dispute its smaller population), definitely richer than most Lunar satrapies. This also helps to explain the Lunar Empire desire to conquer Sartar - instead of it being an unimportant backwaters, Sartar was a rich, strategically important kingdom that controlled the bulk of all trade between the Lunar Empire and the rest of the world (let's skip the Red-Haired Tribe and the Ralios caravans and whatever trade goes through the Janube Valley). It wasn't the Kingdom of Tarsh that defeated Tarkalor and the Feathered Horse Queen at Grizzly Peak - it was the Heartland Army and the Red Emperor (the Lunar advance was stopped at the Battle of Dwarf Ford). Trade continued during Lunar Occupation, although not at the levels seen during the rule of Sartar’s dynasty. The Etyries cult played a greater role in trade, although the Issaries caravans continued to travel between the Holy Country, the Lunar Empire, and Prax under the protection of the Lunar military. However, Lunar tax collectors and military leaders prospered more than the cities, as they took much of what used to go to city and tribal leaders. So during the Lunar Occupation, much of the traditional Sartarite elite became poorer, the cities stopped buying as much grain and meat from the farmers, and it all trickled down. With Sartar’s liberation, the Lunar Empire is no longer able to tax trade through Dragon Pass but also there is no longer Lunar protection of caravans. With political disintegration, much of Dragon Pass has returned to the state of banditry that prevailed prior to Sartar’ arrival. That's the situation at the start of RQG. This might explain some of my desire to linguistically clear the decks of "misleading" terminology like "cottar, carl, and thane" or of using Early Medieval Ireland as a model for understanding Sartar. Heck, if anything Classical Macedon or the Ghaznavids might be a better analogy (although those have lots of limitations as well). At the very least, it helps me see Sartar for the very unique place it is. Anyways, good food for thought I hope!

There are chariots in RQG - rules and pics. I agree with you on that (although mine are more Hittite or Assyrian in my head).

Yep. 1616-1626 witnessed huge social upheavals in Esrolia, on top of the dramatic transformation of Nochet from 1580 to 1600 (during which period the city doubled in size). Keep in mind that Esrolia is fundamentally Earth. And Earth accepts bondage. Lodril was enslaved beneath the Earth to build the Palace of Black Glass. Mortals were made to serve the gods - and most mortals are in bondage to the Earth. Plow, seed, weed, harvest, repeat. Several times a year. Those Asrelia bean-counters can drive a hard bargain for those who want access to the public granaries. For the enfranchised, that is a matter of right. For disenfranchised. Whereas Ty Kora Tek reminds us that we are all equals in death and sleep. But the toughest ones those Ernalda temples that own all the land, and get contributions from everything going on. The Earth Mother is benevolent, she is generous, she is life-giving, but she can also sure be demanding! And you better meet her demands if you want to eat. Always remember, unlike Orlanthi or Lodril or Storm Bull, Ernalda doesn't have to do much to destroy mortals. She just needs to withhold her blessings. Yep. Nochet had food during the Great Winter. A lot of food. And no obligation to give it to non-citizens.

Debt slavery was astonishingly common in the ancient world. Entire kinship groups might prefer to place themselves in hereditary service to a richer family, in exchange for protection and access to food.

If I end up giving out in-setting social status titles, it is much more likely to be things like Darkaring, etc. Non-English, non-terrestrial in origin. But until I am ready on that, I am going with the Soviet Republic of Blandistan.

Serf, Cottar, Carl, and Thane are also misleading in a way the blander terms aren't.

Esrolia has always been described as having a population of "oppressed peasants" (see RQ Companion) - about 30% are unfree, and about 25% are semi-free. The semi-free are mostly entire clans who owe service to the nobility and do not even have the rights to the land they work. The unfree are a combination of debt slavery (largely of semi-free folk slipping into outright slavery) and slaves purchased through trade - initially mostly from Maniria and Ralios, increasingly from the rest of the world. Of course by terrestrial standards, its is still pretty low.

But I totally dig the idea of Gross National Ransom!

And the ransom numbers don't really reflect the personal wealth of the individual - they represent the social importance of that person for their community.

Also the absurdly high ransoms for Princes are intended to make it clear that killing a Prince is a very very dumb thing.

The Prince of Sartar was traditionally VERY WEALTHY. Tarkalor possessed financial resources greater than a Lunar satrap. Under the Lunar Occupation, those higher strata were usurped by the Lunars, but with independence it becomes something Argrath tries to quickly regain.

Great graphic. There is wide-ranging debate on what the breakdown of non-free, semi-free, and free citizens in various Greek city-states were. But certainly a great starting point - might be interesting to see what those charts would like for Gloranthan societies.

Yep. The daughter of a priestess who was the daughter of a tribal king, etc. is going to have a much higher perceived social status and is likely going to look down her nose at the son of a unfree prisoner who made himself a powerful Storm Bull khan.

There is a reason I have eliminated (or at least very much minimised) terms like "carl" or "cottar" in favour of "free", "semi-free", and "unfree".