metcalph

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Elf: How Errinoruela could fight off the Empire till the Closing? They might initially have been capable of battling the God Learner fleets on equal footing, but it was the early era, when the Empire used puny ships not different from later Age, and the Empire had no qualms about burning down entire jungels and forests via Sorcerous conflagration. They also could abuse Herequesting to vanquish quarrelsome Elves. Besides, I wonder Errinoru may have interacted with the Empire when he visited Genertela. The most curious is the cause behind the fall of Errinoruela and exterminated of all of Errinoru’s descendants. What might be the strange insect? 

The burning down the woods of Vralos was done in 654 ST when the God Learners were far from organized (the Abiding Book was only written nine years before and the Seshnegi are still to be conquered by the Dark Empire).  The only resources available were Seshnegi migrants who had been there for sixty years and the First Migrants who had been there for another century before.  So the destruction was really done by local wizards who unleashed big spells against the centres of elvish power and men with axes took care of the rest.

As for Errinoru's interactions, we only have a single document from the Middle Sea Empire p50-p51.  There's a single invasion - the battle of Talking Beach - in which they were driven off.  Some years later Errinoru sends a raiding fleet down the (Pamaltelan) coast aided by the Triolini.  They destroyed about four cities before they engaged with a God Learner Fleet and drove it off.   Errinoru sends his ship down Magasta's Pool before remerging in Kahar's Sea.  He then visits Fethlon and south and western Genertela before returning home.

The events outlined in this document differ radically from Errinoru's history in the Guide (he circumnavigates first then goes down the pool before landing from the Sky) as it is undoubtedly an early outline.  While the Battle of Talking Beach probably happened, its implied date in the document (before 734 ST) is kinda too early for the God Learners to be launching a massive invasion miles away from their nearest lands.  The Dark Empire has not yet been destroyed, Kralorela has still to be captured and the Lopers are still causing trouble in Maniria.  Even if it was the Umathelans, the geographical argument would still apply.  So the dating of all this is up in the air.

As for the strange insect - it might be the God Learners (unlikely IMO as their empire was being smashed apart by the Closing), Trolls (again unlikely as the Jungle Trolls are friendly and the Tarmo too distant), the Dwarves (unlikely as they don't work with insects) or Pamalt (who was blamed in the original Gods of Glorantha for halting the spread of the Jungle).  It could even be internal elvish politics.  

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Dwarf: It is mentioned that the dwarfdom has started the Third Age on the weakest position due to widespread looting (and probably destruction) of Dwarf cities perpetrated by the God Learners, and both experiment empires were extremely adapt at deciphering Dwarven secrets with little material clues, so they went into hiding. I wonder whether the God Learners had learned the secret of gunpowder. 

It's probable that they did.  But they never learned the details of quality control so that all their blackpowder weapons were variable in quality (pretty much like a Disorder Keg Glorantha Bestiary p60).  The God Learners could have cracked that but they had far more fruitful areas of research elsewhere.

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Pamaltela: It is beyond my comprehension why the Empire had never been able to reconquer its Pamaltela territories. Kolar had been a net burden of their finance, so I could comprehend why they decided to cut the loss and withdraw from cesspit, though precisely how Hon Hoolbitku was able to defeat a vastly more powerful enemy is anyone's guess. The gulf is infinitely greater than the Lunar-Orlanthi discrepancies. The Empire lost both Fonrit and Umathela at the height of its power, and it seems they had never made serious attempt to reclaim the provinces, despite of their significance. The sole mentioned expediton was scared off and retreated without a fight. Of course, that might be retconned or expounded in time. AFAIF, nothing of Glorantha is set in stone... save the Third Age and its End. 

BTW, what might possibly be the Kolat Slave Riots? How a mere slave revolt managed to shatter the Empire's hold over Fonrit? And why they targeted the Empire's power base and left Fonritans alone, despite the latter being even *worse*? 

Hon Hoolbitku won because the God Learner cavalry was bad because they couldn't live of the local vegetation.  The God Learners didn't really have any units of magicians on the battlefield in the area - most of those were probably fielded against the EWF.  As for ebing at the height of its power, that really refers only to the geographical expanse rather than the political tensions within the Empire.  The Seshnelan King might have thought he ruled the world but the Umathelans would have become increasingly pissed off about how he ran things.  Think of how various American colonies (English, Spanish and Portuguese) ended revolting and becoming independent.

Why did the Empire never make a serious attempt to reconquer Umathela?  Because they had most of their forces opposing the EWF and also a resurgent cult of Arkat in Ralios.  Since those places are much closer to home, they have a higher military priority.

A possibility for the Kolat slave riots might have been the Empire's non-chaotic replacement for Ompalam (I'm just thinking here as it's not been described).  In promoting this cult and showing its superiority over Ompalam in controlling large populations of humans, the God Learners had hoped to convert the Fonritans away from Ompalam.  Which would have worked if it hadn't been for the Kolat slave revolts.  The slave revolts were serious because they affected the God Learner Cult and not the native Fonritans.    Furthermore the image of overwhelming God Learner might was destroyed and they seemed much weaker than before.  The Umathelans might have mustered enough troops to restore authority but they had their own greviances with the Empire.

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Chaos: How the God Learners and the Empire treated Chaos? Why they didn't put down the Chaos worship prevalent in Fonrit? It seems they successfully identified and linked Fonrit pantheon to the Chaos, but didn't take any action. There is even an implication that God Learners *might* have assisted the Fonritan to find their gods. The best course of action would be burn Fonrit to the ground and salt the earth. It should be also noted that takeover of Fonrit had taken unusually long time, despite the fact that the region had been under orbit of the Empire since almost the beginning. What kinds of difficulties may have plagued the God Learners? 

IMO they knew at some level that Ompalam was chaotic but they never had the smoking gun to make the Fonritans agree with them.  As for cleansing Fonrit of Chaos, I think the God Learners thought about but put into the TOO HARD basket.  While the Fonritans were seemlingly subservient to them, I think the God Learners were all too keenly aware that they didn't have enough troops and magic to do the job.  Instead I think they opted for a policy of slow transformation of Fonritan society into a non-chaotic version.  But the Cosmos killed them before they could obtain any results. 

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Sorcery: Has Sorcery around the world propagated by the God Learners conquest, or has codified Sorcerous traditions already existed in the East and South? Do denizens of Vithela have their own Sorcerous traditions, too? 

Sorcery was already known to the world by the Storm Age.  The Vadeli brought it to Pamaltela and Martalak to the Eastern Isles.  In Genertela, Lhankor Mhy and Buserian both taught sorcery to their worshippers.    Whether all sorcery of all these places had their origin in the West is an interesting question.  The Westerners would say yes and everybody else would say no.  That said, when the God Learners showed up (this is many thousands of "years" later), there were native traditions of sorcery in many of the lands they explored.  Some of those traditions opposed them and others benefited from their wisdom.  Those that studied the God Learners too closely were badly damaged in their fall while other traditions pretended they had vehemently opposed the God Learners all along with varying degrees of cradibility.

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Herequest: How the God Learners Heroquest served to further their empire-building? How their Herequest is fundamentally, radically, distinct from the past and future equivalents? And if their Heroquesting is so powerful, so rule-breaking, why they still didn't manage to conquer the entire mortal realm? 

The God-Learners heroquesting wasn't of the type of "Throw the Ring into Mount Doom and Sauron goes away".   It was more of a constant grind against a Cosmos that didn't want to be known.  Their primary method was really about making all the different deities they encountered into a version of a Big God in their monomyth.The secondary method was about changing the other side for their own benefit.  That was only starting to take off at the end of the Empire when the Cosmos changed on them and all the myriad gods and people they had alienated over the centuries just showed up to give them a brutal kicking.

As for why they didn't conquer the whole world, there were other Empires with their own goals and secrets.  The EWF prevented progress through Dragon Pass.  The Eastern Seas Empire fought them tooth and nail in the Eastern Isles.  The Elf Empire made much of Pamaltela impassable.  The Carmanians opposed them in Fronela.  And so on.

Both the Lightbringers and the Earth Goddesses are available at Chaosium.com

Also the hardcopy of the Prosopedia is also available in Oz.

Galanin has a doubled fire rune and a beast rune, apparently suggesting that he's the rune owner of fire equal with Yelm (Prosopedia p42).  Then I realized it's because he is bearing Ehilm as the Sun Horse and the Fire Runes come from Ehilm.  This suggests the Grazers (who had contact with the God Learners in Prax) may worship Yelm in a similar manner.

Will have to wait for the Fire Book to come out to confirm...

More OSINT action this time courtesy of Pookie's unboxing videos (links below)

• Mastakos has had a serious revamp.  Not only he is now the son of Magasta and Brastalos but he also has access to the Proteus and Meld Form spells that were Triolina's in AH Gods of Glorantha!
• Caladra and Aurelion still receive Diamondedge from Mostal.
• Votank, Surenslib and Biselensib are described as ancestor cults under Daka Fal.  

The unboxing video was quite informative!  Thanx.

32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This one is interesting. It has more meat than CoT, but the majority of stuff (far from all though) in it is going to end up in the Chaos cults book, one imagines?

Some of the innovations are questionable and the example characters won't be in the book.

19 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

And you still get the same salamander with every summoning? Back in the day (RQ2), elementals had 1d6 INT and that put one in six elementals in the low average IQ range (80, according to the back of my envelope), but even if smart elementals are no longer as bright as one in eleven humans, I bet they can still build up quite some resentment. They tried to unionise, but on the picket line, their strike placards soon turned to ash.

Is this really how we want to treat the staff at Gustbran Incorporated? Say instead that salamander working hours are limited by the fatigue of focusing their heat, the EU Working Time Directive, or common decency? Or that only hissable villains would use salamanders in a forge, it being so bad for their health?

Well, if the Salamanders were working for the cult of Vrang 2Jhomang, it's probable they would have been the brains of the operation.

11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

One of Greg's maps Jeff shared a while ago, showed Dawn Age Lightbringer missionaries reaching western Melib.

It's probably this map (screenshot)

11 minutes ago, g33k said:

"older books" have distinctly-limited availability.
What's in print for Chaos deities?

Cults of Terror is Print on Demand at Chaosium. 

Based on an unboxing of the Gencon Books (linked before), I'll just add some further trivia that I noticed.

• Melib is shown as having a significant population of Lightbringer worship.  Not just the city of Dosakayo but perhaps up to a third of the island.
• Kolat's mother is the Mother of Space?!?  (ie the darkness demon that begat Dehore, Subere and Himile)
• The Red Elf spell Proliferate has a particularly wince-inducing example about what effects it has on a dog with puppies.  Little wonder everybody hates them.
• Ernamola's special crop is Sorghum and not Millet as has presented in other sources up to and including the Guide to Glorantha and the Cults of RQ Prosopedia?  Since Millet is said to have come from Slonta, I suspect the Goddess Switch is to blame.

Based on a couple of piccies by Andrew Bean.  

LIGHTBRINGERS

Orlanth: 17 pages - Cults of Prax 7, Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes 15

Vinga: 6 pages

Chalana Arroy: 9 pages - CoP 8 pages, S:KoH 6

Eurmal: 7 pages - Sartar Companion 9 (Don't think this is comparable)

Issaries: 8 pages - CoP 7, S:KoH 5

Lhankor Mhy: 8 pages - CoP 6, S:KoH 7

Barntar: 3 pages

Daka Fal: 5 pages - CoP 4

Foundchild: 3 pages - Griffin Mountain 3, Trollpak 3

Gargarth: 3 pages, Tales of the Reaching Moon 2

Heler: 4 pages, SC 5 pages

Humakt:  8 pages, CoP 7, S:KoH 6

Lanbril: 7 pages, Pavis: Threshold to Danger 7

Mastakos: 3 pages

Odayla:  3 pages - SC 5

Storm Bull: 9 pages - CoP 5 , S:KoH 7

Valind: 5 pages

Waha: 7 pages - CoP 4

Ygg: 5 pages

Yinkin: 4 pages - S:KoH 4

EARTH GODDESSES

Ernalda: 13 pages - S:KoH 13

Aldrya: 12 pages - CoP 10, Elder Secrets 8

Asrelia: 6 pages

Babeester Gor:  5 pages - SC 4

Caladra & Aurelion: 9 pages - Cult Compendium 10

Cult of the Bloody Tusk: 4 pages - ES 4

Donandar: 5 pages - CC 4

Eiritha: 6 pages - CoP 5

Flamal: 3 pages

Grain Goddesses: 8 pages (Dorasta in Dorastor: Land of Doom had 3)

Maran Gor: 5 pages - ToTRM 3

Mostal 10 pages - ES 5

Pamalt: 9 pages - ToTRM 4

Ty Kora Tek: 4 pages

Uleria: 4 pages

Voria: 1 page

Now to find another way to kill time until I can buy them books.

24 minutes ago, hkokko said:

Thanks. indeed could not find any mention of Troll Trade in Pamaltela but there probably needs to be some. Gorakiki is good suggestion as well all the suggestions. What do you mean by Shadow trolls?

The hot trolls or jungle trolls that followed Moorgarki.  They have no cold because of what Pamalt did to them.  Darkness minus cold is shadow.  Rather than Darktongue, their language is Shadowspeech (according to AH Glorantha Bestiary) hence my thinko.

43 minutes ago, g33k said:

is this... better, somehow??!?

It's a reference to what was written about them in White Bear and Red Moon

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The Pteranodons were the metamorphized bodies of other types of dinosaurs who realized their condition and set out to purify themselves.  Any dinosaur could curl up and weave a magic egg around itself, later hatching into a flying pteranodon.

I think Dragonewts tame dinosaurs to remind them of their fallen nature.  Once sufficiently aware dinosaurs hatch themselves into Pteradons. 

I assume trolls are welcome because they hate elves almost as much as the Fonritans do.   The only question is where do they come from?  The elves block access to Tarmo although a trail could be made through the Baruling Valley.  The Shadow Trolls are allied to the Elves and hate hoomanz.  There are the Jrusteli Trolls who would find it the easiest to reach Fonrit as they are likely chums with the Malasp.  

The only other piece of information is the Regional Cults Table in Troll Gods which doesn't give any significant worship for Argan Argar in the Tarmo or the Jungles of Pamaltel but omits Jrustela.  I suppose you could argue that Argan Argar's influence spreads on how well connected the troll places are to the Shadowlands (as well as their level of sophistication) and that some cults of Gorakiki fulfil mercantile functions in the Tarmo.

The God Learners in Fonrit.  I've included some foreign details to indicate what they were capable of doing at the time.  

c. 480 ST - Ten Colonies established in Umathela by Slontans, Caladrans and others.  There may be some colonies in Fonrit as the name of their Hero of this period Abbak is also found in the Fonritan City, Abbakar [and Delerenkos (in Abbakka as a tile of their Queen) - PHM]

500 ST - Garangordos conquers Fonrit.

580 ST - The Seshnegi settle Umathela.  Now their arrival is mentioned in the Fonritan chapter of the Guide by the earlier migration isn't?

646 ST - Abiding Book revealed.

654 ST - God Learners destroy Vralos.

679 ST - Kalabar is established.

770 ST - MSE dominates Kareeshtu.

780 ST - God Learners begin mapping the Gates to the Otherwords.

800 ST - God Learners invade the rural holy places and also begin to guess at the forgotten places.

806 ST - God Learners map the Spirit World.

838 ST - MSE intervenes in Fonrit and defeats a rival coalition.  Kareeshtu formally becomes part of the Empire and large parts of Fonrit submit to the Empire for protection.

845 ST - God Learners raid the strongest gates.

849 ST - Goddess Switch performed.  The God Learners are busy trying to identify the Elder Gods and the switch was an attempt to overcome divine resistance.

861 ST - Six-Legged Empire established in Jolar. 

879 ST - MSE rules over all Fonrit.  The MSE describes it as taking control of a few key ports and playing off the others against each other.

901 ST - MSE orders withdrawal from Jolar.  

907 ST - Kolat Slave Riots; Most Fonritan co-operation with MSE ends.

908 ST - Jann of Afadjann revolts.  Kareeshtu soon follows.

922 ST - Last MSE holdings in Pamaltela are lost. 

955 ST - Closing strikes Fonrit. 

960 ST - God Learners begin Power Heroquests.  

1020 ST - Umathelan Coalition is destroyed with the death of the Lord of the World's Knowledge

1049 ST - Universe snaps back.  Gift carriers active?

1077 ST - Invisible Fleet destroys God Learner Fleet in Koraru Bay.

1080 ST - Fonritans retake Ateggeanga from the Umathelans.  The Umathelans are probably Malkioni dominated by the Elves rather than God Learners.

1137 ST- Kalabar destroyed.  

Thoughts about Jraktal.

I don't think Jraktal teaches the sorcerous tap spell, rather he is the source of weaker magics that the Fonritans and Westerners readily identified as Tapping.  Although the Jraktali might have been leaders of Blueskin society before their Conquest, I think they are low status magicians that thrive by tapping petitioners in return for magical services or extorting protection.  The Masters hate them because they are a drain on their slaves 

2 hours ago, hkokko said:

I could have sworn that I saw a place mentioned that has exceptional healing powers in Pamaltela but cannot find It now. Something possibly involving Doraddi or Veldang.

Perhaps Manelarpanan (Guide p598)?

11 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

So immortal sorcerers had to impersonate demigods who traded in Vadeli techniques in the first place — sounds doable.

They didn't trade in Vadeli techniques - they used Vadeli magical insights, which is a slightly different thing altogether.

Things I would like to have a better idea about:

Jeff has been clear that the Vadeli use only sorcery.  So how exactly did they "pretend" to be Gods?  I imagine as they were worshipped, the magic points expended was channeled to fuel their spells.  Was there anything more to that?  The Vadeli could always be lying their faces off but that would have been something a truth spell would have shown.

Seseine and Echeklihos are both worshipped in Fonrit.  How exactly do the two get along?  I suppose I'll have to wait for the Lunar Book next year for the beginnings of an answer.

I had thought of Ompalam as having some twisted austerity magics.  Sort of like the Shamanic Abilities in the RQ rules.  The idea being that the more intensely you devote yourself to Ompalam, the more gifts you get*.  Thus the society is not reinofrced on their ability to command others (although that helps) but on the desire of the worshippers to acquire better magic in return for their dedication to their master.  Ompalam won't provide any other magics so an intermediary like the Master's ancestor provides the magics instead. 

*If a slave sacrifice characteristics, would that go towards the Master?  Food for thought.