metcalph

Zaktirra of Vormain and Martalak are known practitioners of sorcery.  I also believe that the Sages (Nenduren etc) use sorcery to transform their souls (rather than pointless external effects as the Westerners do). 

4 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

There's something I'm missing here. If the GWD went extinct in the first age and the giants need a GWD for a cradle, how were the God learners stealing from cradles in the second age?  No GWD's should have meant no cradles to steal from after the first age.  What am I missing?

We have a description of one of the cradle lootings in the 2nd age (Pavis: Threshold to Danger p116-117) which doesn't mention a Gold Wheel Dancer.  Hence I don't believe they're necessary.  The presence of a Gold Wheel Dancer probably increased the protection on the Cradles but the Giants could have sent the Cradles down without a Dancer simply because they had no choice.

Storm Bull worship in the Monster Empire.

The worshippers of Storm Bull within the Empire believe, like their Praxian colleagues, that Chaos is evil.  Where the Monstrous differ is that they believe that Chaos is everywhere and threatens their souls.  Only through regular manifesting the Rage of the Bull can they keep their souls free.  They fight for that glorious time where their rage will turn into the Eternal Battle and they would never fear Chaos every again.

The Storm Bullmen of the Monster Empire do not attack chaotics on sight for they know everything they kill just comes back again.  Instead they willingly submit themselves to the authority of Ralzakark and he is return offers them a place with the Empire where they can regularly bask in the Rage of the Bull.  They know that Ralzakark is one of the worst but in the hell they dwell in, obedience to him is the best choice they have.  They are his personal bodyguards, they fight against the chaotics that do not recognize Ralzakark and they act as agents of discipline for the chaotic armies that Ralzakark sends against the outside world.

Asked why he employed the warriors of Storm Bull men, Ralzakark replied "They defeated my Humakti and *I* deserve the best."

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

There is no indication that the [GWD] ever mated with other races.

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Furthermore, with Florencia Sillinhalia, one of the last Gold Wheel Spirits, [Gwalynkus]  was the father of Golden Fintalen, who organized all the markets of Dorastor and the cult of Issaries too. These interspecies marriages were, by this century, generally considered impossible or, perhaps, offensive by most people.

History of the Heortling Peoples p15

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Troll Cults Book, p24. In Heortland there is supposed to be the House of Black Arkat, a temple of the cult which teaches sorcery to its human initiates... otherwise is like any other troll cult... or something like that. The Kitori... smells like trouble.

This was apparently a thinko for Arkat's Hold which is in North Esrolia.  

My crazy theory (based on a line in Lords of Terror):  Ralzakark's warlord and enforcer is one Oddi the Keen ("He killed me so I brought him back to life.  It's only fair")

I think that most people within the Monster Empire blame its awfulness on Argrath and Sheng Seleris.  Admitting their own leaders might be responsible isn't going to make things any better so there's next to no incentive for any soul-searching.  

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The Strugatskis’ Roadside Picnic? Ballard? Mike Harrison? Heroquesting without rose-tinted spectacles?

"I'm looking for a ball.  On the day he was doomed to die, Sheng killed Argrath and made his head into a ball for his followers to play with.  I would very much like to have that ball."

"To bring Argrath back to life?"

"What?  No!  I want to get in a few kicks in one of those people who destroyed this place before Chaos takes me."

4 hours ago, JRE said:

But it also refers to the Ice trolls breaking out from Valind's glacier and devouring the lowlands. And the Dagori Inkarth trolls trying to become once again the main power in the Darkness, which brings about the casting out of Cragspider by the Sartarites, and I suspect the eventual annihilation of most or all of the trolls, depending how you wish to interpret the Fourth Age.

 

I do think the Sartarites could distinguish trolls from chaos.  It's something the Malkioni would be more likely to do.

A couple more hells (the basic scheme was outlined an article Greg wrote in Tales #8 in which Chaos had six forms - the first four mentioned in Cults of Terror p20 and the last two being Evil and Seduction).

Refuseland:  A colder darker version of the Void in the _Loki_ show.  The things that where broken and lost in the above hells end up here.  Much of it is unusable but a hardy few scour the ruins to find freshly fallen refuse.

Maggotland:  A land of ash and sand.  The main form of life is huge maggots (the type that appeared in Snakepipe Hollow) behaving live the sandworms in Dune.  Rounding of this chaotic caricature are various chaotic species acting like hardy Fremen.

A few mad natterings.  I think that as a result of chaos's easy entrance (all the Heroes who could have stopped it are dead or missing), desperate magicians transformed Peloria into six hells to halt its spread.  At the topmost level is the Golden Empire where Ralzakark rules - a combination of Midsomar and Lyendell.  Beneath it somewhere is a land where the Osliris pure sludge and flows directly into a massive gorp.  At the very bottom, Peloria is crumbling into the Void starting with the river bottoms and expanding outwards.  

People can travel from one hell to another by chaotic and or magics.  Simply being killed sends you into the hell beneath you - Ralzakark claims have abolished Death.  At the upper levels, the Great Ice surrounds the important places because Ralzakark and others don't want uncontrolled chaotic hordes entering their lands.  

Time has been broken.  People currently think it is 1725 or thereabouts (KoS 1st edition in joke).  The Red Moon is extremely weak - the full moon phases is annullar and faces the earth at various angles rather than one side

As a coda, my theory about the leadup Battle of Moonfall is this.  Argrath can't even think of defeating Wakboth/Ralzakark and the Monster Empire in an unfair fight.  So he goes after the Red Moon who is providing protection to the many distressed multitudes in Peloria.  That's why the list of enemies in King of Sartar are Lunars rather than Wakboth and the Unholy Trio that _Argrath and the Devil_ suggests.  

I really don't like the idea that the Monster Empire is falling victim to the same flaws that befell the Empire of Light.  Wakboth or Ralzakark or what-have-you shouldn't become Emperor just because the Lunars are afraid of losing.  The Lunars have been out of power since the Lightbringer's Quest.  Sheng Seleris has been and gone.  Anybody who was anybody in the Lunar Empire is a historical footnote in the time of the Monster Empire.  It's like blaming Metternich for 20th Century Europe.

A simpler explanation might be the destruction caused by the Hero Wars (we already have a Flood, Smoke Storms, Windstop and Great Ice) simply allowed Chaos to step back in in a big way.  The Lunars at this time aren't actively inviting Chaos in or fighting alongside it; they are using their mysteries to live with the active presence of Chaos in their world.  Fallout: Peloria so to speak.  

I think Nysalor's Empire was dangerous not for what it taught but a side-effect of those teachings.  Simply put, Nysalor could break the Cosmic Compromise (Cf the Sunstop and the Battle of Night and Day).  What happens when you break the Compromise?  The Cosmos cracks and Chaos seeps in.  It doesn't matter whether he or his followers did it for good purposes or bad, all that matters is that it was done and would continue to be done for as long as his Empire existed.  

Where he and his worshippers aware that they were causing Chaos?  Yes, but they didn't *fear* Chaos.  They knew that it was neither evil or inimical.  They probably had rules to ameliorate any disturbances that they caused.  But no matter what they did, it wouldn't have satisfied Arkat.

My own modest defense of the Crimson Bat (I've made this point before).  It is not devouring souls but illuminating them.  Its Glowspot is no chaotic feature but results from its ongoing illumination of souls.  That the illuminates can't be contacted afterwards only demonstrates how thorough their illumination was.  That nobody believes this is a sign of insufficient faith in the mercy of the Red Goddess.

26 minutes ago, radmonger said:

 

Whether or not chaos is metaphysically evil, it is clearly insidious and corrupting. Praxians do keep and take slaves, so the magic of the chaos god of slavery, Ompalam, would be something that is useful to them.

Slavery isn't chaotic although it is unpleasant.  Ompalam's evil is "degenerative administration, of evil centralization" as per the prosopedia.

26 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Rules wise, as i understand it a chaos rune rating of over 50% is unambiguously detectable by normal spirit and rune magic, and so will get you kicked out of Waha (unless perhaps you kill everyone who objects). Ratings of less than that are the province of specialist, and unreliable, Storm Bull magic.

Making deals with chaotics is not itself a chaotic activity.  The Uz tolerate Cave Trolls in their society despite the presence of Zorak Zoran (and I seen nary a suggestion from anyone that the cave trolls are hunted down).  The Sartarites dealt amiably with werewolves once.  Gloranthan give protection worship to Malia all the time.  Hence in my view making an alliance with the Broos is not something that would trigger a storm bully's chaosense although if somebody told him about it, he would probably beat the deal-maker up or worse (not that they ever need an excuse to).

26 minutes ago, radmonger said:

So what do the storm bullies do all day if there is no covert chaotic influence on Praxian tribal society?

Storm Bullies are not part of Praxian tribal society.  IMO they are a fringe counter-culture like the Hells Angels or the Mongrel Mob.  They exist as warbands running around looking for chaos all the time.  Within the tribe, there are young punks who worship Storm Bull.  They are barely tolerated (even the Waha Khans find them a source of trouble they can do without) with the expectation to one day grow up or move out.  

Waha hates Chaos as much as Orlanth or other normal gods.  But look at what the Guide says about Praxian virtue (below the bit about honesty not expected towards outsiders(.

Quote

Hatred of Chaos is a necessity, and
any mercy or compassion exhibited towards
anything of Chaos is considered to be the
supreme moral flaw, and usually punishable
by death.

Guide p29

A Praxian has to hate chaos and must not show mercy or compassion.  But that does not preclude making an alliance with them as there have been plenty of examples in RW History.  I'm not saying face-to-face meetings with a Broo is fine and dandy and there are probably tribal taboos that prevent the Kahns from doing so.  But even traditional chaos-hating Khans could see an advantage in hiring broos - not against people of his tribe, probably not against other tribes but against outsiders?

I think Hyalor is about capturing wild horses rather than breeding and riding them.  Command Horse seems to me a rather pointless spell otherwise.

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes - it's hard to see what's so special about it (it was used in the Ancient world), it doesn't seem to be a magical ability (as again, it's demonstrably feasible to use in the real world without magic), and even if somehow no trainer even reneges, it's hard to see how you couldn't teach yourself through practice. All we have is that it is indeed restricted to initiates.

The technique was originally used by non-Yelmalions and Daxdarius springs to mind (he was explicitly cited as a source in some Gregly writings but thinking on that may have changed).  Others prefer fighting with shorter spears because the Yelmalion technique emphasizes a stoic rather than heroic frame of mine.  So it's really just a trade secret known by the Sun Dome Temples rather than a cult secret.  Sure you could copy them but there's more satisfying ways to win battles.  

8 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Each Sacred Time as per "regular" Illumination? Or roll each time you pick up a new Rune Point?

Each sacred time.  

Possible outline of Godunya's cult magic (my thoughts only)

The worshipper has a chance of becoming illuminated equal to the number of runepoints acquired.  Success allows access to True Dragon Magic.

Most worshippers find this too slow and resort to a God Learner-era abuse.  They can use the runepoints to cast an automatic sorcery spell (as per Gods of Glorantha).  Originally this was regarded as very shameful but since the wars against Sheng Seleris, it has become rather common (purists will still turn their noses up).  The downside is that such runepoints become soiled and no longer count for illumination purposes.  

I think knowledge of a spell is required beforehand to produce its effects (a change from the Gods of Glorantha rules) but unlike westerners, the Godunyan merely needs to have studied it.  

5 minutes ago, MagikarpHunter said:

How did you come by this interpretation of Daruda? From what I found mentioned about him in the Guide, he seemed like a very respected god.

It was on the basis of discussions about Daruda that I had with others many years ago and several books on how the Manchus ran their empire (they have parallel documents in some cases so that while the official chinese record describes an orthodox confician ceremony for example, the Manchu record about the same ceremony mentions a shamanic oath which would have caused a scandal if included in the official record).  Daruda is still respected because the authorities find it easy to keep him out of sight.  

5 minutes ago, MagikarpHunter said:

Interesting, I always interpreted Godunya (or Yanoor when he was Emperor for that matter) to not really offer anything practical. My first instinct is that he's included in the worship of every Kralori god. I recall Jeff saying that the Exarchs' magic is like some crossing point between Dragonewt Magic and Sorcery. I'd think the Path of Imminent Mastery is also probably some sort of Sorcery that shapes Dragon Magic more aggressively. Maybe the Exarchs have perfected it (or at least say they have)?

I think the Path of Immanent Mastery is really false magic these days (any true magic they had was lost in the Dragons Awakening Shudder).

Inferring a bit from wot Jeff has said (okay quite a lot then), I think most Emperor cults have been devoid of Dragon Powers since the God Learner invasion and only through the worship of Godunya are the worshippers able to access the draconic meaning.

My hastily compiled thoughts (solely my interpretation and not based on anything Jeff has said)

DARUDA:  A Shamanic transformation cult.  Deeply embarrassing to the Kralori Sages as it's Shamanism.  While most Kralori have a single beast tyype, the Darudans pick and choose.

METSYLA;  Originally a cult for Dragonewts to immerse themselves humans and become enlightened as per Zhuangzhi's butterfly dream (the 'newts that chose this find it difficult to cope with the traditional way of dragons).  Also used by humans to become dragonewts.  Favourerd by spies and secret policemen.  They have magic that resembles dragonewt magic but it's illusion magic rather than dragonewt magic.

THALURZNI:  Worshipped by alchemists and poisoners.

VAYOBI:  Perhaps a Humakt analogue.  

VASHANTI:  Probably a variant of Lhankor Mhy except that his magics aren't about the acquisition of knowledge but rather the assessment of taxes and the like.  The Web of Righteous Knowledge was interpretd by the God Learners as Arachne Solara's Web so there's probably some bollocks about how they revealed he was Lhankor Mhy after returning to earth after the Lightbringers Quest.  

All Emperor Cults (save for the non-Draconic ones) have Godunya as an associate and so to get anywhere within the Kralori government, one has to prove one's mastery of his wisdom.  If the above cults represent governmental functions, Godunya represents the party functions.  There's probably dissidents who are big in their Imperial Cult but have been snubbed by the Godunyan hierarchy.  They spend their time trying to awaken the ways rather than the EWF nonsense that Godunya broguth back with him from Dragon Pass.   

I've been trying to work in Eunuchs as villainous enforcers somewhere in the above system but I'll leave it for now.

As for Godunya's cult, I think the idea is that you have to sacrifice for rune points and only after becoming enlightened can you use it for Draconic Transformations.  Gods of Glorantha had some schtick in which you could do sorcery with it but I think that is an abuse of Godunyan wisdom by those frustrated with their spiritual progress.

4 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The better alternative is to place less faith in a 46 year old board game that predates RQ and contradicts key aspects of Glorantha "feel" and mythology that were developed for RQ, CoP, and RQG.

I don't see anything in Cults of Prax and subsequent sources that actually contradict Nomad Gods.

I think Cults of Terror p73 put it best (when talking of another cult) "though the local population will not cheer the student when he misses". 

3 hours ago, Geas said:

In RQG do yelmalions still get 2h spear and shield use?

Short answer: Yes. 

TLDR answer: Yes.