metcalph

1 hour ago, Minlister said:

Esrola is not even mentioned in the who's who of the Earth pantheon, p. 8-11

She's implicitly included as one of the Grain Goddesses detailed on p9.

1 hour ago, Minlister said:

I always thought that Esrola was a sister of Ernalda, I understand that it is no longer the case?Am I right? Or did I misread the genealogy p. 13 of the Earth Goddesses? Esrola is not even mentioned in the who's who of the Earth pantheon, p. 8-11

That's a pity, I liked so much the myth of Asrelia distributing the Great, the Most and the Least [basically brutality, prosperity and sovereignty] to her daughters Maran, Esrola and Ernalda

I will eat extra cornflakes at breakfast to remember the lost sister.

The current version *is* the old version.  Esrola as the Middle Sister was something introduced in Storm Tribe: the Cults of Sartar.

Not sure whether this is an error but Gorgorma has runes of earth, moon and death p51.

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Major temples are hard to find. Normally only regions of
dense population and indolent peace can afford the number
of initiates willing to put their primary belief into the Love
Goddess. Almost all in existence are in large cities or similar
centers of population, although a few unusual exceptions exist,
such as in the rural hamlet of Dragon Pass or the famed temple
deep in the Rockwoods.

p130

Suggest replacing Dragon Pass with Apple Lane.  Dunno where the Rockwoods Temple is.  

p125 in a discussion of the Rune Lord, there are too paths listed - Bearwalker and Champion.  

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A devotee of the Bearwalker Path abandons the life of
village and farm, instead taking up life in the wilderness and
transforming themselves into a bear whenever possible to
hunt and savage.
A devotee of the Champion’s Path enters the service of
an Orlanthi king or chief as their champion. The Bearwalker
is fully supported by their liege, who must permit them to
indulge their anti-social and violent tendencies

I suggest that the highlighted word be replaced with either Odaylan or Champion to avoid confusion with the Bearwalker's path of the previous paragraph.

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Like you guys, I'm having a lot of fun reading the Lightbringers and Earth Goddesses volumes, but I can't seem to remember when the next two volumes are due out. Like a knucklehead, I wrote it down somewhere and lost the note.

I believe there's two due out before Christmas and two more due by March 2024, but does anyone have anything more specific?

Mythology is due out in October and Moon is the first in 2024.

https://www.chaosium.com/blogreleasing-october-mythology-book-for-the-cults-of-runequest-series/

Halfhalodos the Nonwise (the Founder of the Temple of United Eurmal) was persuaded by some of his subjects to buy some Zistorite Prayer Wheels going cheap  that could be trained to generate gibberish which when feed to his subjects would reverse their insanity.

Unfortunately the first bit of gibberish only made them say something so profoundly blasphemous that the Cosmos immediately destroyed the God Learners.

8 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Ygg used to be a son of Valind and not of Vadrus, correct?

He wouldn't be the first god to disown his loser dad in favour of a more illustrious ancestor.  Just saying.

Speaking of the Cult of Orlanth, there's something quite unusual.  In a discussion of the Crown Test (CoR:Lightbringers p22), there is this:

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During their absence, the council is ruled by the Eurmal priest. 

I've a feeling this was meant to be (or originally was) the Elmali Priest along the lines of King of Sartar.  But since Elmal has been unpersoned (which is why I don't think this is an error), a more hilarious option seems to have been chosen.  Kinda adds a time pressure on the Crown Tests.

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Closing: Why Zzabur decided to put the Empire to the closure? What would be his purpose? He had never deigned to intervene during Gbaji debacle after all, which is directly linked to Brithos via Arkat. Since the failed invasion attempt, the Empire had never antagonized Brithos. 

I think Zzabur cast the Closing because the Middle Sea Empire had attacked Brithos.  They had done it once before and who's to say they won't do it again?  Sure relations with the Empire are fine and dandy at the moment but Zzabur always takes the longest view.

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Industry: How widespread was inventions and contraptions made in Zistor? Though secret of mass producing magical enchantment had never beyond its immediate vicinity, couldn't non-magical technology itself be propagated and reproduced? I believe I once saw primitive machine shops were widespread thanks to Zistor, but have yet found the source.

It is also mentioned that they consisted of a key component throughout the Empire's contention with EWF, which possessed the greatest and most powerful land force ever graced (or ravaged) Glorantha. They even developed submarines and hot air balloons, though these aren't mentioned in the Men of the West supplement. 

Had the wider Empire aided Zistor throughout machine war? Zistorite project was a major investment of the Empire, and it seems the movement had been widely famous. They held the Ingareens in high esteem. But AFAIK, there is no mention whatsover the Empire-wide intervention in conflict, aside from occasional supplies. 

The Zistorite wonders were peculiar to the Machine City.  None magical technology could have been propagated but it's important to remember: technology is a worker's job and spells is a wizard's job.  A wizard who interests himself in technology is failing his obligations as a wizard to master sorcery.  Thus there's no incentive for a wizard to study technology and set up factories elsewhere within the Middle Sea Empire.  A worker could but he's only a commoner and hence unlikely to gain the ear of the nobility.

As for the wider Middle Sea Empire involvement:

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The Middle Sea Empire in this period was a vast and complex political machine. Zistorela was important—it was an Official Imperial Project, whose director was Director of Subtle Applications, and reported right to the imperial. This man sat on the Inner Privy Council of the Empire.

But it was not critical. It never got direct intervention protocols focused through it. A few attacks were authorized, but no huge invasion force was ever shuttled to Zistorela. (The relatively minor Temporary Authorizations by the vast empire were tough enough to defeat the Unity Army.)

History of the Heortling Peoples p55.

p122 "God Learner University of Yaraday" - Should be Yoranday.

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Emperor: How magically powerful were the Emperors of Land and Sea? They were foci of worship around litearlly half the world. Considering how powerful are the Emperors of third age empires, they must have been walking, breathing living high gods. They are referred to as the Mortal Ruler, a mortal peer of immortal gods. It is curious that the Prosopaedia dosen't include the Emperors in the list of Malkioni pantheon. Although Svagad is included, his runes aren't described. 

I don't think the Emperors were worshipped as they were kinda more secular rulers.  The magic that the God Learners had exacted from their citizens were funneled to their wizards to use.  The Wizards spent a fair bit of that magic on their rulers (spells both protective and pangyrical) but most of the magic was used for their own researches and spells.  Their caste duty that they must obey their nobles kept them in check even if it made them carry out otherwise silly projects.

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Sorcerous weapon: How are Sorcerous weapons operating? I'm wondering about their mechanism and delivery methods. It seems they are distinct form the Sorcerous spells. And the Empire had developed Sorcerous superweapons, though it hasn't been known whether they had actually been deployed.

It should be noted that after the Tanian's victory, there is absolutely no mention about strategic use of Sorcery, despite of the fact that supposed exponential advancement of Sorcerous knowledge and technique. I suppose such lacuna is owing to paltry of the Imperial Age lore. It would be reasonable to assume that the Sea of Flame had become the standard tactics of the Imperial Navy, and their enemies somehow had been able to ignore or nullify the Burning Waters and similar maneuvers. Also it seems that the Empire worshipped Togaro along with Tanian. Togaro is called Ocean of Terror, the Burning Ocean. Apparently turning water to fire was among favourite tactics of the God Learners. 

Middle Sea Empire weapons were more like Manhattan projects than research a better type of Fireball.  Most of their weapons were developed against the Dragons and they seem to have been successful in that the EWF was fought to a near standstill.  Once the Dragons in a given theatre were neutralized via a cat-and-mouse game of crafted spells, the regular troops could then deal with the opposing army.  

As for mention, the God Learners had Zistor tear down the walls of Esrolia (King of Sartar p80), a big fire missile which destroys half a city (sent by a merchant guild! - History of the Heortling Peoples p81) and the Two Year Winter (Fortunate Succession p36).  There were probably others but records from that time are scant (destruction of the Machine City, Sinking of Slontos etc)

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Eastern Isles: How extensive was the Empire's holding in Eastern Isles? How they governed the diverse territories? It is mentioned that the Empire never truly ruled the isles. Perhaps they mostly indirectly ruled through tributary system? I'm also curious about Golden Mokato. It seems their ships and sorcery were actually superior to the Empire, and their fleets were said to be invincible. Their ships might have been composed of pure magic. 

 

A map by Jeff ( https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-middle-sea-empire/ ) shows the extent of Jrusteli control over the Eastern Isles.  They reached as far as the Boil in the South and the extent of their reach in the north was probably the Andin and Arandinni Isles.  They never controlled Hanfarador but the Pearl Islands were definitely within their control (an Emperor is cited as having tried a diet from there).  I kinda think that the centres of God Learner power were the Jabbi Isles (where the Valkarians still are) and the Pearl Isles.  The Valkarians were resistant to the God learns and probably escaped lasting damage from their downfall.  The Pearl Isles seem much reduced in population and prestige compared to Hanfarador and so I think the Eastern seas Empire targeted them for retribution from which they still have to recover.  

The alleged superiority of the Mokatan ships is primarily Waertagi cope trying to explain why their ships weren't doing so well against the,  Their ships were normal although I do think they had some boil-crossers to launch naval raids.

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Another curiosity is Vormain. AFAIK, there is no mention whatsover how Vormain fared during the Imperial Age after the fall of Waertagi. Surely both the Middle Sea and Easten Sea Empires would have coveted the archipelago, and IIRC, Vormain was once a tributary of Kralorela. The God Learners could easily project their power from Kralorela and other colonies without the need to cross the Ocean. It is mentioned isolation of Vormain generated intense gratification. So perhaps they were a tributary of either empire? 

People attempted to reach Vormain proper several times but were all killed off.  I think Travellers could make their way around the Hinter Isles and chat with the exiles (so long as they didn't ask anything about Vormain proper).  Vormain was IMO in a too hard basket for now as the Eastern seas Empire was still active. To control pirates, I think both the Middle Sea Empire and the New Dragons Ring spent their time sending Kaiju into Vormain proper (MSE from the Jabbi Isles, NDR from Desolation Isle) as a low cost alternative to a full-scale invasion.

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Elf: How Errinoruela could fight off the Empire till the Closing? They might initially have been capable of battling the God Learner fleets on equal footing, but it was the early era, when the Empire used puny ships not different from later Age, and the Empire had no qualms about burning down entire jungels and forests via Sorcerous conflagration. They also could abuse Herequesting to vanquish quarrelsome Elves. Besides, I wonder Errinoru may have interacted with the Empire when he visited Genertela. The most curious is the cause behind the fall of Errinoruela and exterminated of all of Errinoru’s descendants. What might be the strange insect? 

The burning down the woods of Vralos was done in 654 ST when the God Learners were far from organized (the Abiding Book was only written nine years before and the Seshnegi are still to be conquered by the Dark Empire).  The only resources available were Seshnegi migrants who had been there for sixty years and the First Migrants who had been there for another century before.  So the destruction was really done by local wizards who unleashed big spells against the centres of elvish power and men with axes took care of the rest.

As for Errinoru's interactions, we only have a single document from the Middle Sea Empire p50-p51.  There's a single invasion - the battle of Talking Beach - in which they were driven off.  Some years later Errinoru sends a raiding fleet down the (Pamaltelan) coast aided by the Triolini.  They destroyed about four cities before they engaged with a God Learner Fleet and drove it off.   Errinoru sends his ship down Magasta's Pool before remerging in Kahar's Sea.  He then visits Fethlon and south and western Genertela before returning home.

The events outlined in this document differ radically from Errinoru's history in the Guide (he circumnavigates first then goes down the pool before landing from the Sky) as it is undoubtedly an early outline.  While the Battle of Talking Beach probably happened, its implied date in the document (before 734 ST) is kinda too early for the God Learners to be launching a massive invasion miles away from their nearest lands.  The Dark Empire has not yet been destroyed, Kralorela has still to be captured and the Lopers are still causing trouble in Maniria.  Even if it was the Umathelans, the geographical argument would still apply.  So the dating of all this is up in the air.

As for the strange insect - it might be the God Learners (unlikely IMO as their empire was being smashed apart by the Closing), Trolls (again unlikely as the Jungle Trolls are friendly and the Tarmo too distant), the Dwarves (unlikely as they don't work with insects) or Pamalt (who was blamed in the original Gods of Glorantha for halting the spread of the Jungle).  It could even be internal elvish politics.  

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Dwarf: It is mentioned that the dwarfdom has started the Third Age on the weakest position due to widespread looting (and probably destruction) of Dwarf cities perpetrated by the God Learners, and both experiment empires were extremely adapt at deciphering Dwarven secrets with little material clues, so they went into hiding. I wonder whether the God Learners had learned the secret of gunpowder. 

It's probable that they did.  But they never learned the details of quality control so that all their blackpowder weapons were variable in quality (pretty much like a Disorder Keg Glorantha Bestiary p60).  The God Learners could have cracked that but they had far more fruitful areas of research elsewhere.

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Pamaltela: It is beyond my comprehension why the Empire had never been able to reconquer its Pamaltela territories. Kolar had been a net burden of their finance, so I could comprehend why they decided to cut the loss and withdraw from cesspit, though precisely how Hon Hoolbitku was able to defeat a vastly more powerful enemy is anyone's guess. The gulf is infinitely greater than the Lunar-Orlanthi discrepancies. The Empire lost both Fonrit and Umathela at the height of its power, and it seems they had never made serious attempt to reclaim the provinces, despite of their significance. The sole mentioned expediton was scared off and retreated without a fight. Of course, that might be retconned or expounded in time. AFAIF, nothing of Glorantha is set in stone... save the Third Age and its End. 

BTW, what might possibly be the Kolat Slave Riots? How a mere slave revolt managed to shatter the Empire's hold over Fonrit? And why they targeted the Empire's power base and left Fonritans alone, despite the latter being even *worse*? 

Hon Hoolbitku won because the God Learner cavalry was bad because they couldn't live of the local vegetation.  The God Learners didn't really have any units of magicians on the battlefield in the area - most of those were probably fielded against the EWF.  As for ebing at the height of its power, that really refers only to the geographical expanse rather than the political tensions within the Empire.  The Seshnelan King might have thought he ruled the world but the Umathelans would have become increasingly pissed off about how he ran things.  Think of how various American colonies (English, Spanish and Portuguese) ended revolting and becoming independent.

Why did the Empire never make a serious attempt to reconquer Umathela?  Because they had most of their forces opposing the EWF and also a resurgent cult of Arkat in Ralios.  Since those places are much closer to home, they have a higher military priority.

A possibility for the Kolat slave riots might have been the Empire's non-chaotic replacement for Ompalam (I'm just thinking here as it's not been described).  In promoting this cult and showing its superiority over Ompalam in controlling large populations of humans, the God Learners had hoped to convert the Fonritans away from Ompalam.  Which would have worked if it hadn't been for the Kolat slave revolts.  The slave revolts were serious because they affected the God Learner Cult and not the native Fonritans.    Furthermore the image of overwhelming God Learner might was destroyed and they seemed much weaker than before.  The Umathelans might have mustered enough troops to restore authority but they had their own greviances with the Empire.

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Chaos: How the God Learners and the Empire treated Chaos? Why they didn't put down the Chaos worship prevalent in Fonrit? It seems they successfully identified and linked Fonrit pantheon to the Chaos, but didn't take any action. There is even an implication that God Learners *might* have assisted the Fonritan to find their gods. The best course of action would be burn Fonrit to the ground and salt the earth. It should be also noted that takeover of Fonrit had taken unusually long time, despite the fact that the region had been under orbit of the Empire since almost the beginning. What kinds of difficulties may have plagued the God Learners? 

IMO they knew at some level that Ompalam was chaotic but they never had the smoking gun to make the Fonritans agree with them.  As for cleansing Fonrit of Chaos, I think the God Learners thought about but put into the TOO HARD basket.  While the Fonritans were seemlingly subservient to them, I think the God Learners were all too keenly aware that they didn't have enough troops and magic to do the job.  Instead I think they opted for a policy of slow transformation of Fonritan society into a non-chaotic version.  But the Cosmos killed them before they could obtain any results. 

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Sorcery: Has Sorcery around the world propagated by the God Learners conquest, or has codified Sorcerous traditions already existed in the East and South? Do denizens of Vithela have their own Sorcerous traditions, too? 

Sorcery was already known to the world by the Storm Age.  The Vadeli brought it to Pamaltela and Martalak to the Eastern Isles.  In Genertela, Lhankor Mhy and Buserian both taught sorcery to their worshippers.    Whether all sorcery of all these places had their origin in the West is an interesting question.  The Westerners would say yes and everybody else would say no.  That said, when the God Learners showed up (this is many thousands of "years" later), there were native traditions of sorcery in many of the lands they explored.  Some of those traditions opposed them and others benefited from their wisdom.  Those that studied the God Learners too closely were badly damaged in their fall while other traditions pretended they had vehemently opposed the God Learners all along with varying degrees of cradibility.

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Herequest: How the God Learners Heroquest served to further their empire-building? How their Herequest is fundamentally, radically, distinct from the past and future equivalents? And if their Heroquesting is so powerful, so rule-breaking, why they still didn't manage to conquer the entire mortal realm? 

The God-Learners heroquesting wasn't of the type of "Throw the Ring into Mount Doom and Sauron goes away".   It was more of a constant grind against a Cosmos that didn't want to be known.  Their primary method was really about making all the different deities they encountered into a version of a Big God in their monomyth.The secondary method was about changing the other side for their own benefit.  That was only starting to take off at the end of the Empire when the Cosmos changed on them and all the myriad gods and people they had alienated over the centuries just showed up to give them a brutal kicking.

As for why they didn't conquer the whole world, there were other Empires with their own goals and secrets.  The EWF prevented progress through Dragon Pass.  The Eastern Seas Empire fought them tooth and nail in the Eastern Isles.  The Elf Empire made much of Pamaltela impassable.  The Carmanians opposed them in Fronela.  And so on.

Both the Lightbringers and the Earth Goddesses are available at Chaosium.com

Also the hardcopy of the Prosopedia is also available in Oz.

Galanin has a doubled fire rune and a beast rune, apparently suggesting that he's the rune owner of fire equal with Yelm (Prosopedia p42).  Then I realized it's because he is bearing Ehilm as the Sun Horse and the Fire Runes come from Ehilm.  This suggests the Grazers (who had contact with the God Learners in Prax) may worship Yelm in a similar manner.

Will have to wait for the Fire Book to come out to confirm...

More OSINT action this time courtesy of Pookie's unboxing videos (links below)

• Mastakos has had a serious revamp.  Not only he is now the son of Magasta and Brastalos but he also has access to the Proteus and Meld Form spells that were Triolina's in AH Gods of Glorantha!
• Caladra and Aurelion still receive Diamondedge from Mostal.
• Votank, Surenslib and Biselensib are described as ancestor cults under Daka Fal.  

The unboxing video was quite informative!  Thanx.