metcalph

32 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

true enough, but...... ( isn't there always ?  😃 )  they're accepted in sartar. But it occurred to me that in places where the Invisible God is widely worshipped that they might actually be more widespread. where the various sorcery focused heresies encourage worship of gods as well is likley to be a place where Lhankor Mhy sorcery wouldn't just be accepted but could actively flourish.

IMO Lhankor Mhy sorcery can't actively flourish because they are too obsessed with knowledge rather than magic.  They will always be beaten into third place by the Zzaburi (regardless of which school they come from).  Lhankor Mhy is important in Ralian lands but the further westward one goes, I think he will displaced by the rival cult of Enroval the Philosopher whose worship is more compatible with the Zzabuiri mindset.  

Lath Eskan is specified as being in Tarien, not Kothar, but a quick squiz of the map failed to show a location.

14 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

What it says really. In which area of Genertela published or unpublished does everybody feel that LM  sorcerers are most likely to exist, be accepted , prosper, be a widespread part of society  etc etc ?

Well, they are accepted in Sartar.  Anywhere there is an Orlanthi city, Lhankoring sorcerors are there as part of society.

The only places where they are not likely to be are places that don't have Orlanthi (eg Kralorela) or are hostile to Orlanthi (eg Heartlands).

I think that a large strand of sagely eastern isles sorcery would be more about suppressing runic affinities within oneself and others in order to achieve that state of detachment.  Thus Suppress Fiery Tempers will reduce any fire affinity by 5% per point of spell (say) whereas lengthy meditation under the magical influence is needed to make the reduction enduring.  

49 minutes ago, davecake said:

I don't think this is true. The great mystics use mysticism. But hybrid traditions surely exist. 

Could you at least write your own opinions to the original question rather than going line by line through other peoples?  At the very least it's much more readable.

9 minutes ago, JRE said:

Just to mix things up a bit, I would have Kralorelans using sorcery, among other magics, and it being their own development and not an import of the False Dragon Ring, though they probably coopted local sorcerers into their plot. I base this mainly on the presence of "tame" dwarves around Kralorela, which would be the source of the knowledge, as well as integrating it into the Imperial system. 

That would make it use the main system but with a different bent and interacting with all the other magics.

That also justifies having Vormaini sorcery without having to depend on the Jrusteli.

However, with sorcery only barely sketched I will not dare to propose what are the differences between East and West, though I agree most users will be more similar to Lhankhor Mhy sages with a narrow set of spells (sea and ship magics, while others have long term personal enhancements).

As far as I understand Glorantha, pretty much all civilized countries have had sorcerers since mythical times.  Since the Vadeli reached Pamaltela and the Waertagi Prax and Peloria, it's no stretch to assume knowledge of sorcery would have reached Kralorela and the Eastern Isles if they had not already invented it then.  My own beliefe is that they did invent it independently, but received great wisdom from the Malkioni in mythical times such that a) they can honestly claim to have invented it themselves and b) the Malkioni can honestly think they taught sorcery to the Eastern islanders.  

The dwarves aren't really sorcery users and I prefer to think that most civilized humans could come up with the principles of sorcery themselves rather than decipher dwarven magic.      

1 hour ago, Eagle Talon said:

The Monster Empire is a great example. I really like Solar and Lunar mythology and happenings (for better or worse). But to know that Peloria is going to get thrashed in the end is disappointing for me.

It's not known that the Peloria gets thrashed in the end.  All that has been described a battle in Holay and a battle in the upper Arcos Valley.  The effect of those battles were leadership changes (Sheng Seleris kills the Red Emperor and founds the Shadow Moon Empire etc).  Dragon Pass on the other hand has a Lunar Army marching through Boldhome and even when they have been made to leave, I doubt their damage will disappear quickly.

We know the Monster Empire is bad.  What we don't know is how the other lands around it fared.  

The Ice Mines (based on Pompeii and Fringe)

Within the Glaciers that surround the Monster Empire are several settlements that were unlucky enough to be caught.  They have not been ground to rubble beneath the Ice but rather quick-frozen - a cold mist descended upon the settlement and in one terrible instant turned into Ice.

The people inside are presumably still alive for nothing ever dies in the Monster Empire.  But most Ice Miners care little for them.  Instead they tunnel into frozen ruins seeking treasures and other artifacts that could be sold to realize a profit.  

Because it imperils the borders of the Empire that keeps out uncontrolled chaos, Ice mining is one of the few activities that Ralzakark has pronounced to be High Treason.  Due to the nature of the Empire, the Ice Miners generally labour for an imperial dignitary and protector.  The  frequent appearances of chaotic hordes in their lands is apparently worth it.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Neverdead is the closest thing to a Vampire Town that I know of.

It is at the edge of Hellwood and is full of undead of every kind, not just vampires.

Neverdead is known as a "Zombie Zoo" rather than home to undead of every kind.

Addressing the commonality of sorcery in the East Isles:

Most of the Eastern Islanders worship their local Parondpara with a minority worshipping the Parloth and Avanparloth. That is, they are members of Rune and Spirit Cults.  The worshippers of Korudel would know some sorcery (as, like Buserian and Lhankor Mhy, he is a face of the Knowing God there) but it's really only knowledge spells rather than full-blown manipulation of the Cosmos.

Sorcerers proper (full-time casters of sorcery spells) would be rare outside the Jabbi Isles and Vormain.  That said, the Middle Sea Empire controlled the western isles (up to the Boil and the Andin and Pearl Isles going by Jeff's map) so they people of those places would have more experience of sorcerers than those from the Five Chains, Hanfarador and Mokato.

Zaktirra of Vormain and Martalak are known practitioners of sorcery.  I also believe that the Sages (Nenduren etc) use sorcery to transform their souls (rather than pointless external effects as the Westerners do). 

4 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

There's something I'm missing here. If the GWD went extinct in the first age and the giants need a GWD for a cradle, how were the God learners stealing from cradles in the second age?  No GWD's should have meant no cradles to steal from after the first age.  What am I missing?

We have a description of one of the cradle lootings in the 2nd age (Pavis: Threshold to Danger p116-117) which doesn't mention a Gold Wheel Dancer.  Hence I don't believe they're necessary.  The presence of a Gold Wheel Dancer probably increased the protection on the Cradles but the Giants could have sent the Cradles down without a Dancer simply because they had no choice.

Storm Bull worship in the Monster Empire.

The worshippers of Storm Bull within the Empire believe, like their Praxian colleagues, that Chaos is evil.  Where the Monstrous differ is that they believe that Chaos is everywhere and threatens their souls.  Only through regular manifesting the Rage of the Bull can they keep their souls free.  They fight for that glorious time where their rage will turn into the Eternal Battle and they would never fear Chaos every again.

The Storm Bullmen of the Monster Empire do not attack chaotics on sight for they know everything they kill just comes back again.  Instead they willingly submit themselves to the authority of Ralzakark and he is return offers them a place with the Empire where they can regularly bask in the Rage of the Bull.  They know that Ralzakark is one of the worst but in the hell they dwell in, obedience to him is the best choice they have.  They are his personal bodyguards, they fight against the chaotics that do not recognize Ralzakark and they act as agents of discipline for the chaotic armies that Ralzakark sends against the outside world.

Asked why he employed the warriors of Storm Bull men, Ralzakark replied "They defeated my Humakti and *I* deserve the best."

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

There is no indication that the [GWD] ever mated with other races.

Quote

Furthermore, with Florencia Sillinhalia, one of the last Gold Wheel Spirits, [Gwalynkus]  was the father of Golden Fintalen, who organized all the markets of Dorastor and the cult of Issaries too. These interspecies marriages were, by this century, generally considered impossible or, perhaps, offensive by most people.

History of the Heortling Peoples p15

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Troll Cults Book, p24. In Heortland there is supposed to be the House of Black Arkat, a temple of the cult which teaches sorcery to its human initiates... otherwise is like any other troll cult... or something like that. The Kitori... smells like trouble.

This was apparently a thinko for Arkat's Hold which is in North Esrolia.  

My crazy theory (based on a line in Lords of Terror):  Ralzakark's warlord and enforcer is one Oddi the Keen ("He killed me so I brought him back to life.  It's only fair")

I think that most people within the Monster Empire blame its awfulness on Argrath and Sheng Seleris.  Admitting their own leaders might be responsible isn't going to make things any better so there's next to no incentive for any soul-searching.  

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The Strugatskis’ Roadside Picnic? Ballard? Mike Harrison? Heroquesting without rose-tinted spectacles?

"I'm looking for a ball.  On the day he was doomed to die, Sheng killed Argrath and made his head into a ball for his followers to play with.  I would very much like to have that ball."

"To bring Argrath back to life?"

"What?  No!  I want to get in a few kicks in one of those people who destroyed this place before Chaos takes me."

4 hours ago, JRE said:

But it also refers to the Ice trolls breaking out from Valind's glacier and devouring the lowlands. And the Dagori Inkarth trolls trying to become once again the main power in the Darkness, which brings about the casting out of Cragspider by the Sartarites, and I suspect the eventual annihilation of most or all of the trolls, depending how you wish to interpret the Fourth Age.

 

I do think the Sartarites could distinguish trolls from chaos.  It's something the Malkioni would be more likely to do.

A couple more hells (the basic scheme was outlined an article Greg wrote in Tales #8 in which Chaos had six forms - the first four mentioned in Cults of Terror p20 and the last two being Evil and Seduction).

Refuseland:  A colder darker version of the Void in the _Loki_ show.  The things that where broken and lost in the above hells end up here.  Much of it is unusable but a hardy few scour the ruins to find freshly fallen refuse.

Maggotland:  A land of ash and sand.  The main form of life is huge maggots (the type that appeared in Snakepipe Hollow) behaving live the sandworms in Dune.  Rounding of this chaotic caricature are various chaotic species acting like hardy Fremen.

A few mad natterings.  I think that as a result of chaos's easy entrance (all the Heroes who could have stopped it are dead or missing), desperate magicians transformed Peloria into six hells to halt its spread.  At the topmost level is the Golden Empire where Ralzakark rules - a combination of Midsomar and Lyendell.  Beneath it somewhere is a land where the Osliris pure sludge and flows directly into a massive gorp.  At the very bottom, Peloria is crumbling into the Void starting with the river bottoms and expanding outwards.  

People can travel from one hell to another by chaotic and or magics.  Simply being killed sends you into the hell beneath you - Ralzakark claims have abolished Death.  At the upper levels, the Great Ice surrounds the important places because Ralzakark and others don't want uncontrolled chaotic hordes entering their lands.  

Time has been broken.  People currently think it is 1725 or thereabouts (KoS 1st edition in joke).  The Red Moon is extremely weak - the full moon phases is annullar and faces the earth at various angles rather than one side

As a coda, my theory about the leadup Battle of Moonfall is this.  Argrath can't even think of defeating Wakboth/Ralzakark and the Monster Empire in an unfair fight.  So he goes after the Red Moon who is providing protection to the many distressed multitudes in Peloria.  That's why the list of enemies in King of Sartar are Lunars rather than Wakboth and the Unholy Trio that _Argrath and the Devil_ suggests.  

I really don't like the idea that the Monster Empire is falling victim to the same flaws that befell the Empire of Light.  Wakboth or Ralzakark or what-have-you shouldn't become Emperor just because the Lunars are afraid of losing.  The Lunars have been out of power since the Lightbringer's Quest.  Sheng Seleris has been and gone.  Anybody who was anybody in the Lunar Empire is a historical footnote in the time of the Monster Empire.  It's like blaming Metternich for 20th Century Europe.

A simpler explanation might be the destruction caused by the Hero Wars (we already have a Flood, Smoke Storms, Windstop and Great Ice) simply allowed Chaos to step back in in a big way.  The Lunars at this time aren't actively inviting Chaos in or fighting alongside it; they are using their mysteries to live with the active presence of Chaos in their world.  Fallout: Peloria so to speak.  

I think Nysalor's Empire was dangerous not for what it taught but a side-effect of those teachings.  Simply put, Nysalor could break the Cosmic Compromise (Cf the Sunstop and the Battle of Night and Day).  What happens when you break the Compromise?  The Cosmos cracks and Chaos seeps in.  It doesn't matter whether he or his followers did it for good purposes or bad, all that matters is that it was done and would continue to be done for as long as his Empire existed.  

Where he and his worshippers aware that they were causing Chaos?  Yes, but they didn't *fear* Chaos.  They knew that it was neither evil or inimical.  They probably had rules to ameliorate any disturbances that they caused.  But no matter what they did, it wouldn't have satisfied Arkat.

My own modest defense of the Crimson Bat (I've made this point before).  It is not devouring souls but illuminating them.  Its Glowspot is no chaotic feature but results from its ongoing illumination of souls.  That the illuminates can't be contacted afterwards only demonstrates how thorough their illumination was.  That nobody believes this is a sign of insufficient faith in the mercy of the Red Goddess.