metcalph

18 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

The more I think on it, this is a magical world. Anything is possible. The Master Builders have Form Set Stone and are wizard-priests (zzaburi) or have their assistance correct? The Dwarves (Alex's idea above) have possibly much more along these lines (bad pun for architecture) for construction and design, working with stone. They could have had Metabolist or Fractal influences long before the 20th Century?!

Dipping my toe into these waters.

Building is commoner's work and the commoners won't be using sorcery.  The wizards aren't there to make people's lives better through magical technology but to promote spiritual wisdom and strengthen the divine emanations (Orlanth etc). 

The Heortlanders can still have form/set stone from the cult of Flintnail or whatever dwarf the Sartarite stonemasons worship.  

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

N.b. I don't believe there are actually broo there, broo are a Genertelan speciality, and any broo in Pamaltela aren't issuing forth from that place but rather arrived by boat somehow.

Another possibility for Broo arrival to Pamaltela is being spread by the God Learners.  One specific mechanism is the Broos of the Black Pus whose appearance was noticed by Valastos with Seven Pens (Guide p137).  The Broos could then manifest in Pamaltela through spirit world damage caused by the God Learners.

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

More importantly, the monsters in question are horrendous in size and scope, that's the issue. The Nargan beasts are monstrously powerful; no broo would be anything but low-level feeding chow for the kinds of beasts gestating there.

The relevant section from the RQ3 Glorantha Bestiary actually supports your vision

Quote

While a typical broo gang in Genertela might boast half a dozen half-goat horrors, a Pamaltelan broo encounter might be a single lurching monster with a dozen chaos features

RQ3 Glorantha Bestiary p2

It's apparently out now.

https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-starter-set/

Thanks to Japanese RQ twitter.

5 hours ago, dumuzid said:

but not Zanch Mator.  Who's that?

Some Eastern Isles Antigod.  That's about it.

The chaotic are pouring out from the Dinsender Ruins.  As for the source the only (brief) reference I know of mentions Zanch Mator attempting to become the Great God of Chaos through transplantation of chaos into places where the locals are unfamiliar.  Ie the Doraddi could handle the big broos but against the Genertelan hordes they are blindsided. Likewise the Ralians are having problems with Big Broos as opposed to the more familiar hordes. No idea if it is still canonical. 

47 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

 

The Pythagoreans, after all, are supposed to have murdered the member who discovered irrational numbers because they were so appalled at the idea...

Urban legend

http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2015/11/were-greeks-scared-of-irrational-numbers.html?m=1

31 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So tiny-sorcerer-in-a-backpack is a trope now?

The minute shaman in the Black Robe (1991) was carried on long journeys in a backpack.  

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

No, I agree, but would they really maintain that it's the Desert Wind that they've never and seen and worse, has absolutely no relevance to them?

Depends on whether the Bleak Land is a desert or not.

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I've also already been curious elsewhere what winds Storm Bull worshipers in Fronela and Peloria associate with their god - the ones in Fronela likely have never even heard of the Desert Wind of the Wastes. 

Storm Bull worship was imported there by the World Council in the Dawn.  Within Charg there's a mysterious land called the Bleak Land which might be chaos cursed and so be a good land to find Storm Bullies.  

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Which makes John Brown Orlanth?

Which means Genert must be a Prince Albert. 

23 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

There's some level of mythic resonance between Argan Argar and Benjamin Disraeli

Which makes John Brown Orlanth?

Possibilities:

• The Red Moon is illuminated/darkened by an unseen astronomical body rotating beyond the Sky Dome.
• The phases of the Red Moon are the normal phases she would have had had she not been killed in the Gods War and continued to orbit the sky (ie a Sunpath planet with a period of seven days).  She manifests those phases out of its astronomical context to prove her mastery over time, to redress the injustice that was done to her and to stick two fingers up at the Great Compromise.  This implies that the life span of the Red Moon is limited.
• The Red Goddess splits her time between the observable and the transcendental realms.  The Bright Side is when he is observable and the dark side is when she is not.  Thus the bright side and the dark side are different places with different features depending on where their direction (facing Rinliddi, the light side has birds while the dark side has bats).  The Illuminates see the complete picture which is shown in the Guide to Glorantha, much to the consternation of the Materialists who would really like to know what mushrooms they have been smoking.

8 hours ago, EricW said:

What were the Seven Mothers trying to do?
 

Destroy the Carmanian Empire.

4 minutes ago, svensson said:

I was sticking to Dune. My mention of Conan was an example of How To Do It Very Badly Over And Over Again. See also, Sting in his combat diaper.

You mentioned Conan and Geralt of Riveria.  That's not sticking to Dune by my measure.  And FWIW I quite like Conan the Barbarian.  

4 minutes ago, svensson said:

Paul 'Muad'dib' Atreides was a leader for the fremen, he united the tribes and led them from the front. In his case there was a 'reverse assimilation' [THEY taught HIM how to fight in the desert] but that in no way dilutes Atreides' contribution to their victory, hollow that it was.

He has the leadership practically gifted to him in the books doing nothing but passaing a few vague tests and killing someone in a knifefight.  He doesn't do anything *for* the Fremen to make him become their leader.

4 minutes ago, svensson said:

Simon's point is also well taken. In the end the Fremen Rebellion was utterly futile and leads to a series of defeats for Humankind in later books. Now, I have not read Children and later volumes.

If you have not read Children and Dune and byond then how do you know the Fremen Rebellion was utterly futile?  I myself struggled through Heretics of Dune (or perhaps it was Chapter House?  It was one one where somebody's blood turns black after he does a bullet-time fight), can't recall this alleged futility myself.

4 minutes ago, svensson said:

Last thing, in regards to Herbert being a historian...

So he wasn't a historian.  Thank you for admitting that.

12 hours ago, simonh said:

The Atreides were simply overwhelmed.

The Atreides were surprised, not overwhelmed, in the books and both films.  To bring out this point:

The British were overwhelmed by the Zulus at Isandlwana.  They knew there were Zulus and had prepared for battle but their ammo supply seized at a critical moment and so they lost.

The French were suprised by the Germans at Ardennes.  They wer fighting Germans but had no idea that the Germans could make it to where they did.  Their morale plummeted like a stone and they lost the war.

See the difference?  I can accept iverwhelming but that's not what is depicted in the novels and the films.  It's even more mind-boggling when we are told that the Atreides have one of the best armies and that there have been known problems with Harkonnen saboteurs (the hunter-killer incident).  Yet we are supposed to believe that why the army slept, a single doctor without military training develops ninjujitsu skills and brings down the sentries, the shields and the communications?  Not buying it

I

12 hours ago, simonh said:

Herbert consciously wrote Dune as a deconstruction and criticism of the white saviour trope, and a warning of the dangers and costs of saviour dynamics generally.

Frank Herbet may have believed such a thing but the novel does not bear that out.  We are only told once (in a sequel) where in the "Did Hitler use a Lasgun?" conversation, Paul recounts the destruction that has occurred off-screen.  We are merely told about it, have not seen it.  Even worse, the awareness that Paul exhibits is quickly forgotten and does not come up again in any shape or form (as too the destruction).

12 hours ago, simonh said:

The Golden Path engineered by Leto II in the later books is the plan to navigate between these catastrophic failure modes to a truly open, unconstrained future for humanity.

The later books was Frank realizing that he didn't need to make sense as his readers would do it for him.

19 hours ago, svensson said:

Well, met, I got two things for you...

1] That how Herbert wrote it. You can hardly blame a production company for making a movie that's true[ish] to the source material. It's like having Geralt walk around as a Black dude with a white Afro. Yes, I'm conjuring a silly image, but it is *not* to trivialize your point. We both have seen movies that took the source material and made a complete hash of it. Every single 'Conan' movie for just one glaring example.

Stick to Dune please.  I'm not going to get sidetracked into arguments about how similar the Snake Tower ios to the Elephant Tower or the colour of Yennifyer's skin.  If your argument is that the company should stick to the novel no matter what, then p[resumably you want the Guild Navigators wearing mirrored contact lenses to hide their dependence on the spice, no?

19 hours ago, svensson said:

2] Herbert was a historian and knew about the German [sorry forgetting his name] who assisted abd el-Krim in the Rif War. He [the German] taught the Rif how to use captured artillery, taught them how to counter enemy artillery, convinced them to dismount and fire rifles on foot from ambush, and several other tactics suited to their strengths. He rose to be second only to el-Krim himself, and it wasn't until the French brought in aircraft that the Rif War came to a conclusion. Had the Rif succeeded, he would have would have the the 'Lawrence of North Africa'. Instead, the liberation of Algeria and Tunisia would have to wait till the 60's... and a FAR bloodier outcome.

Herbert was a journalist not a historian.  As for historical parallel, your German provide himself to his alliesby teaching them how to use captured artillery etc.  Paul in the novel does not do these things (okay there is the wierding modules in the Lynch Film but that's an innovation of the sort you think the filmmakers should not do).  He passes a few odd tests to convince people he's the Chosen One and they follow him.  Hopefully the second film will rectify this omission but it's something I found annoying with the novel. 

It was a very good movie to watch to such an extent that the issues I had with it were with the source material.  People who adapt it for the silver screen cut out the incoherent bits(1) and the silly bits(2) and congratulate themselves on doing a good job but what they should be doing is reworking the basic plot.  For example I find it difficult to believe one of the best armies in the Imperium can be caught sleeping by a surprise attack (which is really on par with Danerys has her Dragon shot down).  Nor could I understand why the Duke has to move to Arrakis with his entire household whereas the Baron was quite happy to live in Getty Premium and have Drax Harkonnen rule the place.  Then there is the problematic narrative of a white boy, full of nobility and grace, becomes Mahdi of the Fuzzie-Wuzzies etc with hardly any effort.  Many people on this forum could construct a more satisfyingly heroic journey.

Still I most applaud the movie for believable combats (rolls eyes at a prior adaptation which has one side not getting off a shot), characterization (Baron Harkonnen is beliably evil without being cartoonishly so) and the look oand feel of the Imperium (it's a shame that we never get to see the Highliner do a jump).

50 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This made me wonder about something else entirely - what's the speed of light in Glorantha? Does dawn rush over the lands from east to west in a way that could be seen from above, the terminator moving at a less than instantaneous speed?

Instantaneous but slowed by Darkness.

3 hours ago, Ironwall said:

So what kinda of guy is Pharandros, his history pre and post kingship, why he tried killing his uncle fazzur.

It seems to me that Fazzur could become King through a Dart Competition.  He has the popularity and Imperial connections.  So if he were just to be a wee bit dismissive of the King, Pharandros will develop a severe case of paranoia.  Think of what Joffrey would be like if Jaime wasn't a member of the Kingsguard.  

So possible personality types:

Joffrey- spoiled brat.  Protected by mumsy from a deserving brick wall.

 Hamlet - introspective loner.  His father's ghost has appeared to him and demanded his uncle's head.

Edward II - easily impressed by favourites, rewarding them with many gifts.  Although the King himself is oblivious, these favourites seek to eliminate possible rivals (ie Fazzur) to preserve their own positions.  

1 hour ago, Jokum said:

So how is it that Daka Fal is hostile to most cults in Orlanth pantheon but not Yelm or Seven mothers? (Cult compatibility RQ p.310-311) Even Yelm is not so hostile towards orlanthi.

Yelm died.  The Seven Mothers did.  The lightbringers being stuck-up Gods did not.  Ergo Daka Fal hates them.  

1 hour ago, Jokum said:

For some reason other cults are not so hostile against Daka Fal...

That's because being hated by Daka Fal is the theological equivalent of hated by a yappiung lapdog.  They know Daka Fal doesn't like thm but he's not important enough to be the subject of their ungying hatred.

1 hour ago, Jokum said:

Also, does the shaman ability to establish spirit shrines shake the cosmic compromise?

No.

7 hours ago, simonh said:

According to King of Sartar satyrs are deermen (page 86 in the Revised and Annotated). Sartar - Kingdom of Heroes describes their lower parts as deer like.

Runequest Glorantha Bestiary p35 says hindquarters of a horse or a goat.  The passage in King of Sartar was written during the Inhuman Occupation and so I suspect what lower quarters the satyr has depends on the species in the area.

4 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I remember reading somewhere that the "wind walking" is a reference to Garganth. 

Yeas, the oddity is why a Yelmalion would have worshippers of Gargarth as his thanes.  I myself think it a slur  or comment about his thanes tactics that misread as a comment about the religion of his thanes.  Shades of the Thuggee here.

Harvar's fight was against the Righteous Wind, not the Elmali.

Quote

The Orlanthi supporters raised the Righteous Wind
and took up arms. The same year in Storm Season the city of Alda-Chur was torn asunder
by rival mobs of Orlanth and Lunar supporters. At last Harvar Ironfist, a noble of the
Vantaros Tribe, attacked the Orlanthi with his windwalking thanes and destroyed his rivals
inside the Orlanth holy site. He was made Prince of the Alda-Churi and ordered all clans to
purge themselves of all who would not submit to the Red Moon. A flood of new refugees
swarmed southward.

King of Sartar p119

Now there are some oddities about this passage (wind-walking?) that allow for re-interpretation but to interpret this as an explicit suppression of Elmali worship goes too far.  

2 hours ago, Eff said:

So let's take it as given that the Arrolians actually did create the Kingdom of War via a botched summoning ritual to break the Ban. What were they trying to summon, that they got the Kingdom of War instead? 

My answer has to do with the Minderkind Sages of Riverjoin (mentioned in one of the Wyrms Foonotes as believing that Storm Bull killed Kajabor rather than Wakboth but not seen or heard in later publications).  Their odd belief, I supposed, was a general part of their philosophy and they went around proving that Good was Evil, Freedom is Slavery and War is Peace etc.

Their leader was Varnaro of Riverjoin who could Life was Death which led to her ability at killing with a glance.  Now prior attempts at eliminating the Ban had failed because it was treated as a Great Curse.  Varnaro decided to eliminate the Ban by treating it as a Great Blessing instead.  Hence to destroy it she would summon the Devil.  Much labour and material was expended in the summoning which yielded a "huge translucent demon" (Guide p218) which stands at her side.  The summoning was judged a failure and she retired having apparently wasted everybody's time for no good reason.  

It was only after contact with the Lunar Empire resumed that people started connecting the dots and found out her summoning was a huge success.  So a grateful population made her ruler of Riverjoin. It is only with the appearance of the Kingdom of War that people have gotten the big picture and are wondering what to do next...

From wot I heard and put together (salt as appropriate), the Arrolians did a big summoning to break the Ban and inadvertedly created the Kingdom of War. 

It does feature as a prong in the Big Bad God of Chaos which is not mentioned in the Guide.