metcalph

6 hours ago, davecake said:

From @Jeff as linked to earlier in this thread, particularly his descriptions of cults such as Hrestol. I’m sorry if you did not find that context obvious. 

There's no neede to be so patronizing.  I saw the same text as you did and also know that Jeff described Hrestol's worship in Black Horse County in much scarier terms. 

Quote

 

And yet. Ethilrist's followers worship Hrestol as a god and Ethilrist as demigod. And somehow gain Rune magic from Hrestol (!). And the magic includes such strange things as Shield, Darksword and Control Demon (and I've even seen rumours of Command Chaos!). 

Rather than rely on a sample size of one, I'm asking you why you feel the need to assert the Seshnegi should be so limited in their rune magics.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

The put it in simple rules terms - the cult of a major Ancestor like Froawal probably grants a limited number of rune spells, including Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor, and Summon Spirit Teacher. I think a limited number of other Rune spells.

I really don't see why Seshnegi ancestors have to be so "limited" when the Trolls worship Kyger Litor in  the same fashion with her own runic cults.  It also clashes with what is said about the Seshnegi Ancestor worship in Cults of Prax.

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

Are we being told that the Talars worship St. Worlath, the Horali worship St. Humkt, and the Dronari worship St. Barnt and St. Nalda?  Where does this mentioned Spirit and Rune magic come from?  The Invisible God certainly doesn't provide it, so who does?

The Malkioni have no Saints and don't admit any distinction between their gods and the others. 

The Talars justification for Ancestor Worship could be explained by if worship of the Creator/Invisible God/Malkion is right, so too must be worship of ancestors between yourself and the Creator. Through this reasoning, they avoid the Great Error. 

The worship of other gods (Humakt, Telmor etc) is acceptable so long as it has been permitted by the Talars. I don't think the Rokari wizards have anything to do here otherwise it makes the Seshnegi clones of the Carmanians which I want to avoid. 

The Seshnegi Horal.

The Horal generally has two deities - the Caste Deity and the Order Deity. 

The Caste Deity is either Hrestol, "Gerlant" or Arkat.  Gerlant is in quotes because as a King of a country which  hates class migration, the idea of the lower castes worshipping him seems a bit odd to me.  I think the Seshnelans would avoid embarrassment by naming a leading warrior in his service who doesn't give the Flamesword runespell.  Talor's worship is probably confined to Fronela and the later possible heroes are either God Learners or Nobles.  Arkat is here because if the Rokari can tolerate Hrestol, they sure as hell can tolerate Arkat.  

The Caste deities give standard rune magics plus special weapons magics. Hrestol gives Shield and Dark Blade.  While it's tempting to view the later spell as a Mandalorian Darksaber, having masses of Seshnelan warriors armed with Dark Sabers doesn't look right.  Hence I'm inclined to interpret the Dark Blade as being something like an obsidian dagger used in cthonic sacrifices.  Arkat teaches Spear Magics (inferred from the iconography of the Liberator in the Guide p377) and Gerlant teaches loyalty  

The cult of the Caste deities function as the officer corps of the Horals.  The Talars trust none of them (Gerlant would be seen as too close to the King at the expense of the local Talar for example) and sideline them whenever possible .  They are happy to work with the Order Deities (your average Hsunchen Gods).

There is a EWF temple-tomb that plays a role in the RQ Gamemaster Screen Adventure so the EWF did make use of tombs.  The highest honor IMO would be being devoured by a Dragon.

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Eh, I didn't worry too much about that. This isn't the thread for my own takes on things, but I thought it would be cool if "mundane" expertise had sorcerous secrets baked into it. So a Master Mason, for example, would through his masonry tutelage learn not only to calculate load bearing and such, but also specific sorcery that deals with ensuring structures' stability and what have you.

A way to handle it might be through Caste Magic rather than specific sorcery spells. For example a Malkioni crafter might learn the Philosophical Form for a Sword.  He carries it around in his head such that when he makes two swords at different times, the appraisers are hard pressed to tell any difference between the two.  Rather than give the equipment made by such sorcery the hoary +1 bonus etc, I' think it would be more interesting if the equipment enhances the wielder's caste magic (ie a Horali wielding a Philosophical Sword would hit harder than he would using an ordinary sword.

Hrestol and Sorcery

Obviously this is more of a pressing problem for the Loskalmi but the any Hrestoli learning sorcery (in order to become a Man-of-All or to simply learn Sorcery) is going to be limited compared to the Rokari.  There is a simple solution:  Joy.  Jeff has written in the past of a Hrestoli corpus of magic in which some spells can only be cast having experienced Joy.  Since Hrestol was the First to experience Joy, giving his worshippers some boost in casting sorcery through Joy seems to me the best way.  In addition as a Rune Spell it also has the advantage of being theologically suspect to more conservative Wziards.

THE JOY OF [RUNE]

Rune: Varies

Self, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell merges the caster's consciousness with the Invisible God.  The spell must be boosted with 1 or more magic points.  Each magic point increases the caster's skill in any sorcery spell of the selected rune by +10%.   Trance limitations go here.

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Can Rokari Talars use swords now?

They've always been able to (cf King Gerlant and his flamesword).  It was only the Talars of Arolanit that were reported being cute with their caste restrictions.  An example of a sword wearing Talar is shown in the Guide p413: the Prince of Rinalket is submitting his sword to Guilmarn.

How the cult of Hrestol might work in Seshnela.

What I think most commoners* are initiated into is not the basic cult of Hrestol because that's been suppressed.  Instead they worship the Protector of the Commons with its limited rune magics (Shield, Dismiss Magic, Spirit Block).  This makes them Malkioni and keeps them righteous even if they have to break the rules to serve the higher orders.  Hence this cult proliferates among the commons despite the disapproval of the wizards.

The core cult of Hrestol teaches the standard rune magics and has subcults for the other castes (wizards, warriors and nobles).  But to become a full initiate of Hrestol (ie access to common rune magics for example) requires that the Hrestoli worship at secret temples alongside crazed holymen.  

*I think that in places, a sizable population of commoners are initiated into other patrons, such as Kadenit, Kachast etc

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

 But those few spells are still very welcome, makes him very capable of resisting foreign magic of all kinds, and don’t require abandoning previous abilities as most full rune cults do. 

What "abandoning previous abilities" would these be? 

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

 Sure, having a flaming sword is not comparable to the range of spells that an Orlanth worshippers gets,

I'm not sure where we are getting the idea that the Saints Ascended are limited in the Rune Magics they provide.  Gerlant can work just fine as a regular warrior cult among the nobles.

So to put some detail on this.

Noble 1 is from Estaurenic.  His House's ancestor is Aerlit (Orlanth).  He is an initiate of Orlanth and has access to the panopy of Orlanth's rune magic.  However he knows he will never rise high in the ranks of the House Cult because he is neither favoured nor outstanding.  He seeks fame and fortune as a warrior of Gerlant and has access to Gerlant's rune magics including the Flame Sword.  He is likely to rise high in the ranks with the risk of an increased lifespan.  From the House Priest of Old Malkion (Daka Fal), he has an ancestor as an allied spirit who looks after him and ensures that he doesn't not sully his House's name.  From the Rokari Wizards, he has learned Rightness and has embodied it with (say) +2 damage bonus on any sword forged in the Seshnegi style.  Where he is limited is in his acesss to Spirit Magic which consists of a heal 2 for wounds suffered during practicing and a disrupt.  He does not learn any more spirit magic because it clouds his rightness.  Even though he is not particularly important within his kingdom, he is the match of five Ralian barbarians because he is their superior.   Equality is for the Loskalmi.

16 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

If it's not sorcery or rune magic, what is it?

It's Caste Magic.

Within the larger magical framework (as elaborated by the God Learners), I think Caste Magic would be sorcery as Shamanic Gifts would be Spirit Magic and Yelmalio and Humakti Gifts would be Rune Magic.  

9 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

As an example of how limited their magic is, Hrestol only provides three spells: Dismiss Magic, Shield, and Spirit Block.

Jeff did make mention of a Dark Blade in another post which conjured up a picture of Hrestol as Darth Fring.  I think Hrestol's small repitoire above reflects the civilian version of him worshipped in the west as opposed to the heroic version worshipped by Ethilrist and the Black Horse County (and also in the west).

9 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

The Talar don't use sorcery themselves though. Their biggest compensation for limited Rune magic is instead the power they get from their caste, which allows them to compel other Malkioni castes to obey them.

Jeff spoke of limited spirit magic for the Talars rather than limited rune magic.  I'm not seeing any evidence that the Talar ancestors are limited in power compared to conventional gods and Cults of Prax has their ancestors surpassing the Gods.  

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

I've probably missed something but why is Open Seas a sorcery in RQ:G?

It's knowledge rather than a divine sending or spirit.  

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

Every reference I find to it implies it should be a Rune Spell of the Dormal cult.

There's been lots of discussion about it in Men of the Sea.  However that was bound up with a lot of Three Worlds silliness which was less than ideal.  

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

Presumably the sorcery is how Malkioni ships leave harbor (or not? the recent threads on Malkionism imply that perhaps sailors would still use theist magic anyway).

All ships use Open Seas to leave the harbour.  Most sailors use spirit and rune magics but to Open the Seas, they have to have one person on board who knows the spell, regardless of their attitude to sorcery.

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

Come to think of it, there's an awful lot of ship related sorcery in the book. What's the context for this?

Ship related sorcery is prominent because the rulebook describes the common sorcery known in the Holy Country (as well as Dragon Pass and the Wastelands).  

36 minutes ago, Ladygolem said:

I ask because a Lhankor Mhy sage in the campaign I'm running selected it as one of the free Sorceries they get from being a philosopher.

A Lhankor Mhy Sage knowing something that is next to useless pretty much embodies the cult's mission statement.

12 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

What they and seemingly the Talar have a problem with is worshiping gods as gods, which involves acknowledging them as superior beings to humans. Worshiping your ancestors is acceptable since you're ultimately worshiping humans (though the definition of "human" can seemingly be stretched a good deal).

There are I think several possibilities in which this could be modelled.

1)  So long has everybody involved acts with rightness and is able to demonstrate that (by performing caste magic or being scanned by a Zzaburi for signs of such) then there is nothing to worry about.  If you are a Talar and you don't act with rightness (like, say, being a shaman to the ancestors) then there is something to worry about but the Talar won't do anything.  If a member of the lower orders doesn't act with rightness, then there's nothing to worry about because the Talar will do something about it.

2)  Regular donation of magical energy to the Zzaburi offsets the doctrinal error you commit in worshipping the Gods (being an initiate might have a periodic cost of 10 magic points for example).  Only applies to lesser castes and not the Talars.

3)  Lower castes permitted to worship "demonized" gods, spirits or wyters.  These are similar to spirit cults but the entities are controlled by the local wizards with some magical enhancements.  A nice idea but probably too much work and there is always the risk of the False Gods Revolt.

4)  Wizards regularly tax the temples of the lower castes for magic points (ie the contribution is borne by the congregation rather than the individual person).  Has the advantage over 2) of not having to waste time keeping track of individual worshippers or monitoring their magic point returns.

54 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, sorry, think I misread your comment.

But, this is the bit I question - is it really the Zzaburi "allowing" worship of ancestors?  Or the talars rightly honoring their ancestors, and the zzaburi ensuring that the other castes rightly offer obedience to the talars, their energy to the zzaburi, and their work to their own tasks?

Allowing in the sense of "Yes, we've already said this is permissible".  Some Zzaburi might dream of a state where nobody worships any gods at all, others think that only gods descended from Malkion should be worshipped but neither can actually make it happen.

Just now, Richard S. said:

I think it's more supposed to mean that the types of spirit magic they can learn are limited, since shamans aren't as readily available and their ancestral cults don't have a wide selection.

I doubt your interpretation both as to the lack of shamans and the limitations in their ancestral cults.  If Seshnela was the size of civilized Prax, say, then I could accept the limitations of available magic, but it's one of the centres of civilization and so can be as exotic as necessary.

I had seen the material by Jeff before but this is the bit that intrigued me:

Quote

For example, the talars have the ability to give commands to Malkioni from other castes. They can also worship their ancestors and gain magic from them. And they have limited access to spirit magic.

This suggests to me that the caste magic is limited by the amount of spirit magic, or Free INT in other words.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Except this is assuming the Talars answer to the Zzaburi.  It may well be the other way around (but still be constraints on what the nobles do or do not do - going in for shamanism seems like it would approach Devil worship).

Um, my position is that the Nobles are the source of political authority in Seshnela.  They decide what's the right to worship their ancestoirs rather than the Zzaburi.  The Zzaburi can only influence the Nobles by working for them and providing access to Rightness.  Since the Zzaburi have already allowed the worship of Ancestors in Seshnela, their opportunity for controlling Ancestor worship is limited.  It's like the Hsunchen worship among the warriors - the Zzaburi know about it, the Zzaburi don't like it one bit, the Zzaburi do not have a death wish.

Besides I doubt that the Seshnegi Ancestors are limited in the magic they provide when Cults of Prax says:

Quote

Other distant lands
[such as Seshneg in the Dawn Ages] developed this form of
worship until they made their ancestors surpass the mighty gods
in power, or else reduced the immortals into mere superhuman
heroes or multi-national ancestors.

Cults of Prax p14

6 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think you'd have to go to the level of introducing shamans.  By virtue of worshiping the Founder through the proper ritual ceremonies (and expenditure of magical energy), and reciting the correct lineage (and perhaps including the correct relics of the ancestor), the nobles can Summon their ancestors.  This seems like a logical approach and one the zzaburi would approve of. 

It's not whether I have to but whether I want to.  Seshnela is a big and wealthy place where things aren't always going to go the way the Zzaburi want.  Yes, the Zzaburi would prefer the nobility have a cut-down ancestor worship but the Nobles and the Ancestors make the decisions and what would they prefer?  Bigger and better bumped ancestors that rule the world.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

does that mean that malkioni get the same "powers" than any initiate, but not because a god worship but because a "ancestor worship" ? or maybe a reduced choice of spells and they can only be "initiate" of a no-cult if they prove their lineage to this ancestor-no-god ?

In my understanding.

A Talar worships Orlanth as an ancestor (perhaps he does so under the name of Coalot or Aerlet).  He worships by going to the Temple of his ancestor where he is blessed by a Priests and is capable of wielding spirit and rune magics.  The Priest is a fellow member of his noble house and not a shaman.  If the Priest weren't a Seshnegi Noble, he might be indistinguishable from a Ralian or Heortland Priest.  There are sacred offices (Rune Lord positions) within the Temple, such as Sacred Lord, King etc and these are held by the leaders of the House (the reigning Talar, the heir etc).  The Temple is smaller than elsewhere (because there are fewer initiates) but more richly endowed.  The Farmers and Warriors worship at the Temple as lay members.  

Most of the Noble worship is conventional cults.  I like to think that the houses of different flavours of permitted ancestors (like the Bailifids worship Seshneg, the Hadestolids worship Magasta, the Merabids Orlanth etc) to which they are initiated with the members choosing lesser ancestors as patrons (like Gerlant, Hrestol) depending on their inclinations.

So what about the lesser ancestors (as per Daka Fal)?  Or to put it another way, how do the Seshnegi nobility worship their little ancestors alongside the big ancestors (Orlanth, Gerlant) already mentioned?   There's two possible answers.  One is that the Seshnegi have a acolyte only (no shamanism just rune magic) policy with respects to lesser ancestor worship.  This is possible according to earlier writeups of Daka Fal but not in RQ:G and probably not in GaGoG.  My major problem is with this that it's boring.

So alongside the traditional temple priests there are the shaman-priests of the lesser ancestors.  They are not as prominent as the regular priesthoods of the Big Ancestors but they are still an important part in the spiritual life of the Noble Houses.   They may just be the Fredos of the house tapped to look after the tombs and speak to the ancestors.  The Wizards on the whole just ignore them whenever they can.

So what would the name of the Seshnegi Daka Fal be?  My guess Old Man Malkion, which has the bonus of being a common ancestor to all Seshnegi, and somebody whose existence is bound to irritate the Wizards.

It's interesting to read of Zzabur's mortality because I had the impression from latter Gregly sources that Zzabur was some sort of divine emanation of the Invisible God.  That he is unable to stop thinking of himself as Mortal is a fascinating psychological detail.  

As for the monomyth identities, Jeff has said that some God Learners did see Malkion as Flesh Man (ie when the spell to put the world to right went wrong and killed everybody, Malkion/Flesh Man was left alone gibbering amidst the corpses when Chalana Arroy found him).  But I think they ended up dropping the idea in light of its absurdities.  Lhankor Mhy and Issaries would supposedly be known to the Malkioni as Enroval the Philosopher and Kachast the Speaker.  

The broad brushstrokes make a lot more sense to me than the statements in the Middle Sea Empire about how the God Learners weren't worshipping Makan but Malioneran or mistaking the protective spells of the Abiding Book for the Book itself.

My own thinking in trying to make sense of the big picture is that the God Learners were heavily tainted by the error of Pilif is that they viewed Wizards should be a source of legal authority, having the ability to make something a crime, as opposed to law originating from the Gods acting through their Talar descendants.  The Age of the God Learners was the Age of the Big Legal Codes that regulated Everything.  The Rokari have retreated from this position in that they see it as a source of corruption (which usually ends up with a massacre of defenceless wizards by iron-wielding thugs) and will only permit themselves to act in legal matters which they have already involved themselves.

For example: two farmers have a dispute about the land.  The Zzaburi is not interested and the Talar sorts out the matter himself.  But if the land had been in a trust set up by the Zzaburi then they would get involved.  The primary duty of the Rokari Wizards is to encourage the Rightness* of the other castes, rather than regulate their behaviour ten commandments style.  They could see if somebody is falling behind, some might foam at the mouth at the lapses but others prefer to let the Talars sort it out.  

I think that much of the dispute in the Sorcerors War (Halwal versus Yomili etc) can be seen as analogous to the dispute between Augustine and Pelagius (Faith and Good Works).  Halwal believes in the pursuit of Rightness above everything else but is held back by his enemies who legitimately quote verses in the Abiding Book.  So Halwal goes "screw you guys, I'll teach Rightness to our enemies and if they should kick your sorry asses win then I was right".  In the next age, Rokar vindicates Halwal by using his arguments to clean up the Abiding Book.

*Not just an arcane concept but a source of magic.

27 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

thinking about your answer, I get a new question ( your fault ! :p) 

does that mean characters should get a score in infinity rune like others runes ?

does that mean the "illumination skill" is now transfered to this infinity rune ? or in both inifinity and "school" (light, dragon, ...) rune ?

I m not sure of the consequences in this cases (seems to me that the inifinity rune represents more than only illumination)

IMO only

The Illumination score (number of riddles answered, percent chance of illumination) is the same as before.  Whether this is the infinity rune rating or not makes little difference (½∞=∞).  The other rune is really how you approach the infinity rune rather than a combined score.

1 minute ago, Soccercalle said:

Hi,

Illumination rules was mentioned in the core rulebook and promised to be included in the Gamemasters Guide. As that book no longer seems to be in the plan I wonder if Illumination will be described in the Cults book or the RQ Campaign Book. I have the ancient text "Gods of Glorantha" with some basic rules for (Lunar) illumination but that is based on skills that don't seem to exist in RQG.

Or are they published somewhere else where I can have missed them.

Illumination has been printed in Cults of Terror (avaibale as a PDF from Chaosium) and I've been informed repeatedly the rules therein are largely the same for RuneQuest: Glorantha which will be printed in the Gods and Goddess of Glorantha book.  The only innovation since then has been (per HeroQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha) that Illumination is a feature of the Infinity Rune and so that Nysaloran Illumination is Light plus Infinity, Draconic Illumination is Dragon plus Infinity etc.

The Lunar magic skill of Amplify is mentioned in the Red Book of Magic (Cf Meteor Swarm p117) and so the Gods of Glorantha approach still looks valid.  The skill of COmbine may or may not exist any more (since RQ:G took the euqivalent multispell out of the sorcery rules).

Many years ago I did think of the Index of Forbidden Books in LePlain, an occult library of books banned by the Ecclesiarch (which tells you how old this idea is - another was the Ecclesiarch refuting the Loskalmi doctrines with the Syllabus of Errors).  An Abbot reads all the books in the Library so that he can know the location of other prohibited copies for appropriate action.  Not a good fit for the Rokari anymore.

I imagine the Rokari would know of the 144 apocryphal verses and the reasons they were deemed spurious.  There would be no single text of the Abiding Book floating about but there would be commentaries on groups of the 144 verses scattered throughout Rokari literature.  One group might be condemned for posing unnecessary impediments to Rightness, another groups might be impeached for providing foundation for practices that led to the downfall of the God Learners.  Certainly Rokar himself would have writting passages on why this verse couldn't be trusted and so forth.  From this one could reassemble the original text but to the Rokari studying these verses is like obsessing over the Book of Enoch.