metcalph

6 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think you'd have to go to the level of introducing shamans.  By virtue of worshiping the Founder through the proper ritual ceremonies (and expenditure of magical energy), and reciting the correct lineage (and perhaps including the correct relics of the ancestor), the nobles can Summon their ancestors.  This seems like a logical approach and one the zzaburi would approve of. 

It's not whether I have to but whether I want to.  Seshnela is a big and wealthy place where things aren't always going to go the way the Zzaburi want.  Yes, the Zzaburi would prefer the nobility have a cut-down ancestor worship but the Nobles and the Ancestors make the decisions and what would they prefer?  Bigger and better bumped ancestors that rule the world.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

does that mean that malkioni get the same "powers" than any initiate, but not because a god worship but because a "ancestor worship" ? or maybe a reduced choice of spells and they can only be "initiate" of a no-cult if they prove their lineage to this ancestor-no-god ?

In my understanding.

A Talar worships Orlanth as an ancestor (perhaps he does so under the name of Coalot or Aerlet).  He worships by going to the Temple of his ancestor where he is blessed by a Priests and is capable of wielding spirit and rune magics.  The Priest is a fellow member of his noble house and not a shaman.  If the Priest weren't a Seshnegi Noble, he might be indistinguishable from a Ralian or Heortland Priest.  There are sacred offices (Rune Lord positions) within the Temple, such as Sacred Lord, King etc and these are held by the leaders of the House (the reigning Talar, the heir etc).  The Temple is smaller than elsewhere (because there are fewer initiates) but more richly endowed.  The Farmers and Warriors worship at the Temple as lay members.  

Most of the Noble worship is conventional cults.  I like to think that the houses of different flavours of permitted ancestors (like the Bailifids worship Seshneg, the Hadestolids worship Magasta, the Merabids Orlanth etc) to which they are initiated with the members choosing lesser ancestors as patrons (like Gerlant, Hrestol) depending on their inclinations.

So what about the lesser ancestors (as per Daka Fal)?  Or to put it another way, how do the Seshnegi nobility worship their little ancestors alongside the big ancestors (Orlanth, Gerlant) already mentioned?   There's two possible answers.  One is that the Seshnegi have a acolyte only (no shamanism just rune magic) policy with respects to lesser ancestor worship.  This is possible according to earlier writeups of Daka Fal but not in RQ:G and probably not in GaGoG.  My major problem is with this that it's boring.

So alongside the traditional temple priests there are the shaman-priests of the lesser ancestors.  They are not as prominent as the regular priesthoods of the Big Ancestors but they are still an important part in the spiritual life of the Noble Houses.   They may just be the Fredos of the house tapped to look after the tombs and speak to the ancestors.  The Wizards on the whole just ignore them whenever they can.

So what would the name of the Seshnegi Daka Fal be?  My guess Old Man Malkion, which has the bonus of being a common ancestor to all Seshnegi, and somebody whose existence is bound to irritate the Wizards.

It's interesting to read of Zzabur's mortality because I had the impression from latter Gregly sources that Zzabur was some sort of divine emanation of the Invisible God.  That he is unable to stop thinking of himself as Mortal is a fascinating psychological detail.  

As for the monomyth identities, Jeff has said that some God Learners did see Malkion as Flesh Man (ie when the spell to put the world to right went wrong and killed everybody, Malkion/Flesh Man was left alone gibbering amidst the corpses when Chalana Arroy found him).  But I think they ended up dropping the idea in light of its absurdities.  Lhankor Mhy and Issaries would supposedly be known to the Malkioni as Enroval the Philosopher and Kachast the Speaker.  

The broad brushstrokes make a lot more sense to me than the statements in the Middle Sea Empire about how the God Learners weren't worshipping Makan but Malioneran or mistaking the protective spells of the Abiding Book for the Book itself.

My own thinking in trying to make sense of the big picture is that the God Learners were heavily tainted by the error of Pilif is that they viewed Wizards should be a source of legal authority, having the ability to make something a crime, as opposed to law originating from the Gods acting through their Talar descendants.  The Age of the God Learners was the Age of the Big Legal Codes that regulated Everything.  The Rokari have retreated from this position in that they see it as a source of corruption (which usually ends up with a massacre of defenceless wizards by iron-wielding thugs) and will only permit themselves to act in legal matters which they have already involved themselves.

For example: two farmers have a dispute about the land.  The Zzaburi is not interested and the Talar sorts out the matter himself.  But if the land had been in a trust set up by the Zzaburi then they would get involved.  The primary duty of the Rokari Wizards is to encourage the Rightness* of the other castes, rather than regulate their behaviour ten commandments style.  They could see if somebody is falling behind, some might foam at the mouth at the lapses but others prefer to let the Talars sort it out.  

I think that much of the dispute in the Sorcerors War (Halwal versus Yomili etc) can be seen as analogous to the dispute between Augustine and Pelagius (Faith and Good Works).  Halwal believes in the pursuit of Rightness above everything else but is held back by his enemies who legitimately quote verses in the Abiding Book.  So Halwal goes "screw you guys, I'll teach Rightness to our enemies and if they should kick your sorry asses win then I was right".  In the next age, Rokar vindicates Halwal by using his arguments to clean up the Abiding Book.

*Not just an arcane concept but a source of magic.

27 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

thinking about your answer, I get a new question ( your fault ! :p) 

does that mean characters should get a score in infinity rune like others runes ?

does that mean the "illumination skill" is now transfered to this infinity rune ? or in both inifinity and "school" (light, dragon, ...) rune ?

I m not sure of the consequences in this cases (seems to me that the inifinity rune represents more than only illumination)

IMO only

The Illumination score (number of riddles answered, percent chance of illumination) is the same as before.  Whether this is the infinity rune rating or not makes little difference (½∞=∞).  The other rune is really how you approach the infinity rune rather than a combined score.

1 minute ago, Soccercalle said:

Hi,

Illumination rules was mentioned in the core rulebook and promised to be included in the Gamemasters Guide. As that book no longer seems to be in the plan I wonder if Illumination will be described in the Cults book or the RQ Campaign Book. I have the ancient text "Gods of Glorantha" with some basic rules for (Lunar) illumination but that is based on skills that don't seem to exist in RQG.

Or are they published somewhere else where I can have missed them.

Illumination has been printed in Cults of Terror (avaibale as a PDF from Chaosium) and I've been informed repeatedly the rules therein are largely the same for RuneQuest: Glorantha which will be printed in the Gods and Goddess of Glorantha book.  The only innovation since then has been (per HeroQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha) that Illumination is a feature of the Infinity Rune and so that Nysaloran Illumination is Light plus Infinity, Draconic Illumination is Dragon plus Infinity etc.

The Lunar magic skill of Amplify is mentioned in the Red Book of Magic (Cf Meteor Swarm p117) and so the Gods of Glorantha approach still looks valid.  The skill of COmbine may or may not exist any more (since RQ:G took the euqivalent multispell out of the sorcery rules).

Many years ago I did think of the Index of Forbidden Books in LePlain, an occult library of books banned by the Ecclesiarch (which tells you how old this idea is - another was the Ecclesiarch refuting the Loskalmi doctrines with the Syllabus of Errors).  An Abbot reads all the books in the Library so that he can know the location of other prohibited copies for appropriate action.  Not a good fit for the Rokari anymore.

I imagine the Rokari would know of the 144 apocryphal verses and the reasons they were deemed spurious.  There would be no single text of the Abiding Book floating about but there would be commentaries on groups of the 144 verses scattered throughout Rokari literature.  One group might be condemned for posing unnecessary impediments to Rightness, another groups might be impeached for providing foundation for practices that led to the downfall of the God Learners.  Certainly Rokar himself would have writting passages on why this verse couldn't be trusted and so forth.  From this one could reassemble the original text but to the Rokari studying these verses is like obsessing over the Book of Enoch.  

Kaxtor's priests are described as asectic wizards (Guide p361) so Truth (think Yelmalio and Humakt) seem you me to be appropriate.  As for the larger runes, he is a teacher of religious truths rather than a prominent hero so one rune is all that's needed to describe him.  IMO he can be followed with the faiths of Lhankor Mhy, the Arkati and even the Rokari.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

 

And the Loskalmi, and probably most non-Seshnelan Malkioni really, would scoff. Which is why I said ‘many’, not ‘all’ or even ‘most’. 

I think the Loskalmi would probably encourage their farmers to worship their ancestors (to trample Seshnegi values).  Which leaves who else in terms of the modern Malkioni? 

30 minutes ago, davecake said:

NB: it’s unusual to combine sorcery and ancestor worship, at least the shamanic form (and would be pretty heretical to many modern Malkioni). But it can work surprisingly well! Let Magus Great Uncle incarnate for a few hours to cast a few spells, some enchanting maybe, share a bit of wisdom… 

The Seshnegi Nobility worship their ancestors and consider themselves modern Malkioni.  Their Zzaburi have better things to do than argue.  

The only way between Fronela and Ralios is through the Nidan Pass controlled by the hostile to the Bright Empire Nidans.  I think the Cursed Telmori of Fronela would have just fled eastward (where Talor never reached) rather than make a dangerous crossing into Ralios.  

Broos worship Daka Fal in pretty much the same way that the Trolls worship him.  They can summon their ancestors all the way back up to Thed. but not Ragnalar (Dead) or Wakboth (Indiposed).

Since they are chaotic, the ancestors are pretty much bad tempered about their continued self-exitsence and will only be deterred from attacking the shaman with an opprtonunity for more mayhem.

15 minutes ago, Beorne said:

• Erryn Mercy Is a chalana Arroy Priestess an has access to Sorcery spells, but Chalana Arroy does not give access to sorcery ans she does not seems coming from the west or having a Lunar past. How can she access sorcery?

Chalana Arroy could learn sorcery as far back as RQ3 Gods of Glorantha.  Since Lhankor Mhy teaches sorcery, there is scope (probably in the Holy Country but also in Old Pavis) of the two cults developing the practice of sorcerous medicine.

Jolaty is Yelmalio.

Ompalam is Pamalt.

Andins are Trolls, Dwarves, Gargoyles and other earth and darkness based sentients.

Idovanus when he acts through his Ersoon is Yelmalio.

Avanpdur is Illusion rather than Chaos and his worship was why the Eastern Isles were spared the ravages of chaos during the Gods War.

The most common worshippers of Arkat the Devil are travelling bands of Ralian monster-fights often called Witchers.

Shavaya was a bandit king rather than a wise mystical emperor.  He is only acknowledged as Emperor because the commoners have fond memory of his rule after the downfall of Abzered.

Mikaday is a cult where humans magically turn themselves into dragonewts.  It was originally a cult in which Dragonewts tried to understand humans by becoming them.  Supposedly you can tell the humans from the Dragonewts at their religious gatherings by seeing which ones blink and which was stare.  But be careful!  The human worshippers have long developed the practice of staring (and other weird reptilian habits) while the Dragonewts practice blinking as humans do.  

Edit: The Lankst Royal House is descended from an ancestor who visited Kralorela in the Imperial Age and learned from the cult of Mikaday the secret of fire-breathing.  The Mikday temple which he learned it from is unusal in their worshippers breath gusts on wind instead of flames. 

The internal dynamics of the Royal House of Tarsh can be best understood by watching Succession with Logan Roy as Moirades and Kendall as Pharandaros.

The Seshnegi nobility are superior to the laws of their Zzaburi and their conduct policed only by their ancestors and noble house.  They could become powerful sorcerers but their hedonistic lifestyle and pursuit of quick thrills means that most get bored and worship demonic ancestors instead.  The zzaburi are happy at the preservation of their sorcerous monopoly.

31 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It was only a flesh wound. 

The Bat may have been having its monthly time. 

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There was suggestion at one point in time that a shrine or temple of Black Arkat was hidden among the trolls/Kitori of the Troll Woods.  I don't recall where that reference was, or if even accurate.

It stems from Troll Gods (Arkat Cult writeup) saying that the House of Black Arkat was in Heortland.  But that seems to have been a thinko for Arkat's Hold which is in Esrolia.  

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

 

"The king has an Air God as his ally and divine guardian. This manifests as the head tied to the king’s side; quiescent for now; when roused, it is a terrible spirit of storm and thunder".

Why nobody ever slandered Broyan as a Thanatari is beyond me...

I think that mastering a rune requires study and illumination and the amount of time required for it is the same as if you were training or researching a rune in one season (rulebook p416-417).  The difference is you are trying to grok the theoretical part of the rune rather than the affinity.  Don't forget to use sympathetic magic bonuses.  If you are swotting at the Jonstown Library you would get a +20% on the roll (Major Rune Association p388) but if you studied Fire during Dark Season you might get a -15%.  

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Jointures de airain? 🙂

Mind you, D&D weapons lists long included "Lucerne Hammers" for worlds with no such canton...

Much to my displeasure when my cleric finally found out it was an edged weapon. 

If I was doing the families for RQ:G, I would:

Pick a Noble Ancestor.  Although the Guide and Staffordian material has a lot of names like Ehilm, Lodik, Aerlit and Coalot, it's easier just to assume the names are local variations of one of the conventional Gloranthan Gods.  Since the Capratis and Du Tumerines are hostile to each other, make their ancestors Gods who would be opposed to each other: like Orlanth and Yelmalio, Argan Argar, Lodril etc.

The Nobles will have access to their ancestor's rune magics.  Their retainers will have access to their spirit magics as they are lay members at best.  Select retainers of lower caste could be granted a dispensation to initiate to the ancestor and learn their rune magics.

Pick the Hsunchen Warrior Ancestor.  Telmor, Basmol, Pralor, Tawar etc.  Most warriors are lay members of their chosen order and restricted to spirit magics.  Skilled warriors often initiate (with the local authorities looking the other way) to gain access to rune magics.  

Poor Shargash.  Every other war god gets Iron or some equivalent funky metal to enchant and he has... Tin.  

Dragonewts have Pternadons as mounts!

The Sairdite helmet is rather extravagant while the Wolf Pirates seem to be rocking it with the Sea Peoples look.

I think the Book of Dale is a God Learner (or EWF) Book and probably kicked in and around the Valley of Cradles in the Imperial Age.  There is some remark in The Middle Sea Empire about a Barbelo Stone who was mounting some campaign about the opening of the Book of Secrets and sohe could have written the Book.  I daresay the Book was used in the defense of Pavis after the walls were breahed and then looted.  Possibly it fell into the hands of the Pavis Survivors who bore it from the Rubble when the Trolls took over.

Its teachings were then adapted for the Wastelands magical landscape and it soon became seen a magical treasure to be had rather than a foreign corrupting artifact.  As a result, its been kicking around the tribes but kept out of Sable hands (otherwise the Lunars would have had it which hasn't happened).

I think rather than the bearers of the book having to learn Old Pavic to read it, it has a patron spirit that instructs the bearers how to cast magic so long as they have the book.

13 hours ago, dumuzid said:

What do we know about Varganthar's story?  Built a palace at the impact crater of a piece of the Blue Moon, seems to have been the warleader of the Eleven Beasts Alliance in at least the later Gbaji Wars, called the Blue Knight and the Unconquerable, vanquished by Talor--this much I know, and is more or less relayed above.  Is there any more known about him?  Since my campaign is embarked on the quest to recover the Red Sword of the Zaranistangi and resurrect the god Artmal, Varganthar's legacy seems highly pertinent information to My Glorantha.

I did have the idea that Varganthyr originally led the Malkioni Army that fought fought against the Eleven Beasts at the Sunstop.  But his folks back home feared his power and tried to kill him.  In revenge, he changed sides and fought for the Eleven Beasts against the Malkioni.  A gloranthan Coriolanus so to speak.  

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

His return seems like it would be on the table in the HeroWars, then!

Eh?  Talor returned during the Chaos Wars to aid Harmast in Ralios and Dorastor.  After the War, he set up the Kingdom of Loskalm.   He's not missing to return in the Hero Wars.

4 hours ago, Scorus said:

Also, information on Dwarven culture and apostate Dwarves.

Glorantha Sourcebook and RuneQuest Glorantha Bestiary are the best sources.  For the apostates, there's the Flintnail Cult in Pavis: Threshold to Danger (or Pavis: Gateway to Adventure).