M Helsdon

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Drawing on non-canon sources now? LOL.  

Are you able to make a post without being offensive?

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Good reference.  Read it more closely next time.

Whilst possibly no longer canon, this diagram might suffice...

Just now, David Scott said:

I look forward to Swords of Central Genertela Part II.

Excellent work, unfortunate end. 

Unfortunately, David, I won't be creating another thread on the subject here. If I create any more I'll put them on the other site.

I have decided to terminate posting illustrations to this thread.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yes, I am aware of those things, but the cradle will pass through the underworld to get to those deeper waters on the Magasta whirlpool.  I doubt that the Styx doesn't flow to help Magasta's whirlpool.  

No it doesn't. Magasta's Pool flows down to the Primal Water, the child of the River Styx, the Water of Darkness, which lies beneath it, but borders the Underworld. The Styx is the 'river' you have to cross to get to the Lands of the Dead.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

What doesn't change is that the spiral of the whirlpool will pass through the underworld to get to the primal waters. 

Except... it doesn't. Please see page 10 of the Guide.

...

2 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Dragonewts live primarily in Dragon Pass, not Prax, and there are forests nearby.  Gaining access to that wood, though, is another matter entirely.

I was referring to:

16 hours ago, TRose said:

I can see the Praxian tribes and poorer  warriors using similar weapons , although they would be made out of wood and obsidian, not dragon bone.

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

So, if you are beneath the underworld you aren't dead?  But surely you have to pass through the underworld to reach this place beneath the underworld where you suddenly aren't dead anymore?

No, because the Deep is under the earth (upper world) but not under the Underworld. You are aware that the cube of the Earth floats above the deepest Waters? There's an illustration in the Guide (page 10) which serves to show this. The Deepest Waters are above and lap upon the shores of the Underworlds. Contradictory? Intentionally so.

And, when you get beyond the Middle World, perceptions useful there aren't as useful beyond the confines of the Mortal World, so it is entirely feasible for the Primal Water to have a surface upon which cradles and dragonships can float - even though it is in the Waters.

5 hours ago, TRose said:

As far as swords in metal poor area, the Dragon Newts use swords that look like the Aztec macuahuilt and I can see the Praxian tribes and poorer  warriors using similar weapons , although they would be made out of wood and obsidian, not dragon bone.

Very little wood in Prax.

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Ok I've got some interesting questions here? Some I think i have the answer too but her we go anyway.

• Did curved sword come to Peloria with the Lunars or were they common before ?

 

My guesses...

Probably not. There's circumstantial evidence of Dara Happans using curved swords prior to the ascension of the Red Goddess (illustration in the Guide, page 306 - it seems unlikely that a society as conservative as the Dara Happans would adopt a Lunar fashion).

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Is weapon choice and design in primarily Glorantha theological, practical or cultural ?

Based on available evidence, a mixture of the three.

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

• has weapon usage and design migrated through Glorantha like in the real world ?

Given that the kopis form is of Pentan origin and now so widely adopted by the Lunar Empire to become the Lunar sword, the migration of designs does happen.

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Is there room for significant local deviation and variation for martial norms of a people group? 

Based on canonical illustrations: yes. This is why I attempted to portray a range of variants. Also, armor and weapons are made by many dispersed smiths working to their own templates. Even in those cultures supporting organized regiments, there is considerable variation in design, for there are no exact patterns. In those where war gear is made by clan smiths there will be an even greater variation. In pre-industrial cultures there's rarely a uniform design.

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Is the concept of the technological development of weapons truly Gloranthan?

 

There's certainly a development of styles, but little apparent technological innovation, save by the introduction of new techniques.

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Why do the race most associated with the stasis rune have the most advanced technology?

I presented your question to Isidilian: Changes in Mostali weapons are due to the ongoing repairs to the World Machine as it gradually approaches optimum operation. Mostal was the Maker of all things.

3 hours ago, Steve said:

Please consider publishing this stuff via Chaosium, Martin. As you know from Dragonmeet (where I had the pleasure of meeting you briefly), Jeff himself seems very interested in your work. I realise it's extra work for you to turn this into an actual publication, but the look of your manuscript on armies was already very professional. And I think you can see the interest already from potential buyers in this thread (add me to that list too, please).

Hi Steve,

Thank you for your kind comments. At present I am roughing out a chapter on magic and warfare, which so far ranges from the impact of Divination (and Chronomancy) to the use of greater Elementals. The chapter is far from complete...

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Do you have the references. 

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/metals-in-prax/

3 hours ago, Iskallor said:

High Llama leg bones would be much sought after. 

The sword at the top is made from a High Llama leg bone.

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I have the idea that some Praxian swords have obsidian edging on one edge. Some will also be made of more than one bone, fused by magic. Rather than forge bone, fuse bone is more common, being a type of healing spell. Many bone swords are enchanted to strengthen them (or have a spirit within). These weapons are the purview of initiates, with metal being a prerequisite of khans. Lots of them are heirlooms or of ritual use. Athame style daggers with obsidian edges and a bone core are common amongst Eiritha initiates. Some have four edges and are carved from a large vertebra. 

Interesting, thank you. The only sources I could find referred to Forge Bone. I see that I have some more drawing to do.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Perhaps a little odd that the Giants send their children into the underworld... to die... when the kindly God Learners were quite happy to help them die in the Middle World, yet that upsets the Giants for some unfathomable reason

The Elder Giants that send their children into the underworld are not the giants you might encounter walking around the Surface World. Like dragons (who they apparently fought in lost ages long before Time) humans tend to perceive them in terms of geography.

Given their lifespan and presence before Time, their method of birth (the cradles simply appear at the Boathouse) and their nature is entirely alien to that of the mortal races. Compared with these Giants, Gonn Orta is tiny. The Three Little Giant Mountains are the giants who float their babies down the river to the sea; the journey of the baby down the Zola Fel, and subsequently across the Homeward Ocean and down Magasta’s Pool, is now the giant equivalent of giving birth. Magasta's Pool leads down to the Primal Water. Down there, things are a little different: this is the Deep, the Silent, the Still which arose from Darkness and from which the first Earth in turn pushed upwards. It is part of the underworld, but not the Underworld. It laps the Lands of the Dead, 'below it', and is a distinct realm all of its own. Perhaps the life cycle of the Elder Giants follows the Elemental pattern, and they grow upwards to become mountains in the Mortal World. It is doubtful anyone knows, for the lifecycle of these beings appears longer than there has been Time in Glorantha.

When the Closing ended sea travel, the Waertagi dragonships also sought refuge below and sailed down Magasta’s Pool to wait upon the Black Ocean, from which they return in the Hero Wars. However, this is not a realm for ordinary humans; even Argrath and his companions were happy to leave the Cradle prior to its descent.

2 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Speaking of Forge Bone, I add post one that could be like one (third one) : http://basicroleplaying.org/topic/5092-runequest-2-rapiers/?do=findComment&comment=76722

And I remember it, thanks to Iskallor ( You must give to Caesar the things which are Caesar's )...

 

Which is very similar to the second bone sword down - but mine has a leather grip. Despite being strengthened by magic, boring a hole through a bone inevitably weakens it, and bone is likely to be smooth and so a leather grip is advisable.

Perhaps I need to rework that image...

Bone and horn are used in the manufacture of weapons and armor, especially in metal-poor regions such as Prax. The Praxians use the spell Forge Bone to make weapons. These weapons are more fragile and do less damage than metal weapons but a bone blade or arrow head will often leave slivers in a wound.

A second Western broadsword added.

32 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

BTW, what is the historical source of each group (assuming they where grouped by source)?

They aren't all grouped by terrestrial source.

A: some Gloranthan (TCS-based) sickle-swords, Thracian falx, Near Eastern khopesh, and scimitars and sabers.

B: Hellenic kopis and Iberian falcata.

C: Thracian rhomphaia.

D & E: a mixture of  Mycenaean, Hellenic, and La Tène swords.

F: no historical source - I didn't know that Western swords resemble Warring States period swords.

Basically, I worked through the Guide (especially using the illustrations by Jan Pospisil, Jeff Laubenstein and Dan Barker), The Coming Storm, Sartar: KoH, Pavis: GtA looking for recent artwork in which there were swords. Then I sketched out what I thought I could discern, looked at real world examples, and then started to draw the illustration above. Of all the groups, B is most heavily reliant upon historical sources, because I couldn't see any of these in any illustration, though kopis are referenced: http://www.glorantha.com/lunar-army-list/

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Are you considering compiling all your works into an "Arms, Armour, and Architecture of Glorantha" book?

Most are being used as illustrations in a text about Gloranthan warfare I am compiling for my own amusement.

58 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

One of those little things that may be of importance in Glorantha: of these swords only the one at the bottom of the "d" examples has a prominent crossguard. But without crossguards, wouldn't swords lose their association with the Death Rune? Perhaps crossguards are more common in Glorantha than they were in the real world Bronze Age.

An interesting point, but I attempted to use the canonical illustrations as my guide, not just terrestrial examples. It may be that like so many things, the common appearance of the Death Rune is of God Learner origin, reflecting primarily Western swords. For that matter, axes also embody the Death Rune, and a double-headed axe resembles the Death Rune, if you squint.

Almost all of the swords have a guard to prevent the hand slipping up the blade when thrusting as part of the hilt, but not an actual cross guard; these were a late development in terrestrial swords, with prominent quillons appearing as a feature of European swords around the 10th century. The Death Rune is a highly stylized sword, and so probably doesn't reflect any Mundane World sword (for that matter, it's very... blunt, lacking any sort of point).

So, basically, you may or may not be correct: I don't know.

5 hours ago, Mankcam said:

The swords you have posted here all look very 'ancient' to me. Would I be correct in saying that the Orlanthi swords are influenced from Mycenaean and Hellenic swords?

The designs I used, based on the illustrations, are derived from Mycenaean, Classical Greek, and La Tène swords.

5 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I also read somewhere earlier on this forum that Western swords used by the Malkioni may be based on bronze age east-asian swords, such as swords from the Warring States period of China, like this one for instance: 

I used the Western culture illustration in the Guide as the pattern.

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

And also yes, Western swords in Seshnela and Loskalm may be based on Warring States period swords.

In that case, the next version may include a few more Western swords...

These designs are illustrative but not definitive examples. Differences in size, weight and detailed design vary according to the requirements of the customer and the skills and patterns of individual smiths. The style of hilt also varies enormously, and many of the styles shown might appear in conjunction with other blades.

A: Pelorian sickle-swords. The examples shown vary from those almost indistinguishable from agricultural implements (though of much finer quality) through to Moonswords, khopesh and the form often described as a scimitar.

B: Examples of Kopis swords.

C: Examples of Doblian two-handed Rhomphaia.

D: Orlanthi leaf-shaped broadswords

E: Orlanthi long-leaf swords, also common in Esrolia.

F: Western broadswords.

The shorter swords are often carried as secondary weapons by Humakti and hoplites.

13 hours ago, g33k said:

Lemme know if you're ever in the San Francisco Bay region (or on the coast just North of there):  I want to buy you a brew, or a cup of our amazing local chowder... get you something more substantive than mere praise...

Thank you, for the offer, but I'm unlikely to get there in the foreseeable future (I'm in the UK).

Page 113: wane – might be – Wane

Page 117: wane – might be – Wane

Page 120: In 4/53 (1462) the treaty did not last long, and war quickly raged again – suggest - The treaty did not last long, and war quickly raged again in 4/53 (1462)

Page 121: the Lunar way – should be - the Lunar Way

Page 122: wane – (twice) might be – Wane

Page 122: In 5/2 – might be - In 5/2 (1465)

Page 123: The Sacred time before the dawn – should be - The Sacred Time before the dawn

Page 123: In 4/52 (1461) Hon-eel was 14 years old – does not match the earlier statement - Hon-eel had been born 18 years earlier in 4/36 (1445) – she was 16 in 1461?

Page 123: since the dawn of Time – might be - since the Dawn of Time

Page 123: In 5/2 (1466) aged 19 – should be - In 5/2 (1465) aged 20

        [Created this table to check Lunar dates… Of course the cited Lunar dates might be in error instead. Tables are included to show my assumptions.]

Page 124: In 5/7 (1471), aged 24 – should be - In 5/7 (1470), aged 25

Page 124: In 5/2 (1466) after the Battle of Iron Fences – Guide says battle was in 5/2 (1465), should be - In 5/2 (1465) after the Battle of Iron Fences

Page 125: “I am Daylight.” – should be - “I am Twilight.”

Page 126: each three years – Guide says annually

Page 126: called the Red Tribe by the nomads – should be -  called the Red Hair Tribe by the nomads

Page 126: wane – (twice) might be – Wane

Page 129: two of the three clan – should be - two of the three clans

Page 130: as rightful king of the barbarian Kingdom of Tarsh – might be -  as rightful kings of the barbarian Kingdom of Tarsh

Page 130: Black Horse Country – should be -  Black Horse County

Page 131: 6/47 (1562) – and - 6/49 (1566) – both cannot be correct… should be – 6/47 (1564) [If the Lunar date is correct]

End of Third Pass.

This concludes my proofreading exercise. There will be other errors, but there’s a point of diminishing returns where an individual reader won’t notice more without considerable effort.

A document of this size and complexity requires at least three or four proofreaders to have a chance of identifying all errors. The creation of an Index Seed will capture variations in names; Lunar dates need other eyes to check them – I have attempted to check all instances but cannot guarantee all problems have been identified or that all problems raised are actually problems…

Sets of pages have been read out of order this pass to counter the tendency to ‘speed up’ towards the end. There’s an inevitable inclination to lose concentration towards the end of a chapter or book, so reading pages out of order serves to limit this. Comparing the first, second and third pass comments also illustrates that when one error is found it tends to lower the probability of detecting errors nearby: multiple readings often find a slightly different subset of problems; where the same bug has been found in each pass there’s been an attempt to avoid duplication in reporting.