M Helsdon

23 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I would say no novels.  They really don't exist in our world until 18th cen. and don't seem to be a style that would fit a Bronze Age world.

It's more that few survived. The Metamorphoses of Apuleius is the only Roman novel to have survived; there were others (such as the fragmentary Satyricon), but we know little more than the names of the authors. Of course much of the Metamorphoses is based in myth and legend to a greater or lesser degree.

In the sophisticated urban cultures of the Lunar Empire (especially), and Nochet similar works might exist.

6 hours ago, g33k said:

I'll suggest searching for the strings  ".," (also:  ",." + ", ." + ", .") as this seems to be a repeating issue, and one all-too-easily-overlooked by the human eye...

<space>. yields a number. One previously identified:

• Page 137: draconic indifference .
• Page 150: trade routes with Sartar .

,; yields two, previously reported:

• Page 68:  elf Fwalfa Oakheart,;
• Page 68: Speaking Wheel,; and

There are a number of scanning errors such as this one, previously reported:

• Page 18: the Iynx-spirit - should be - the lynx-spirit

Note that this isn't immediately obvious in some fonts. I've had a look for other common scanning errors where 1 replaces I or l or I are confused and found:

• Page 115: Parg llisi which looks almost fine until you change the font: Parg llisi. I believe this should be Parg Ilisi. This occurs four times on this page.

This sort of error is very hard to spot in a pdf, especially in the font used in the document. Have spent an hour looking for others but haven't found any as yet.

Another common scanning error is a confusion of 0 and O - haven't found any examples in this document as yet.

18 minutes ago, g33k said:

Having a computer to flag the stupidest errors only helps with the very stupidest stuff... 

One tool (though not always fully foolproof) which will catch other things is to create an index, as this will identify variations in spelling. It does, however, take a great deal of effort, and this document is not yet in a state where creating an index seed would be productive. I'd need a Word version to create the seed.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

(1) Many people are mercenaries in Glorantha, many are pragmatic, but few have a reputation as thieves.

Sigh. The people of Vanch are on the borders of two distinct cultures with very different value systems. That border has moved over them in one direction or the other throughout Time. It's a little like the historical friction between the Irish and 'Vikings' - both peoples had honour based cultures, but their concept of honour differed significantly, to such a degree that each considered the other to be lacking in honour, with inevitable results.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

(2) In truth we have precious little backstory on Lanbril, or Vanch for that matter.  Lanbril has to come from somewhere, so why not Vanch?  I hear there is a whole hill of gold.

There's an entire cult write-up in the Pavis boxed set. As that states, many gods of Sartar and Prax have thieving abilities, and Gods of Glorantha names a few thief cults (though not Lanbril).

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

(3) That isn't even true of mortal hero questers like Sir Ethilrist, much less for deities.  

If they don't get out of the Underworld, they stay there as one of the dead.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Also, where do trolls go when they die if what you say is true?  As denizens of the underworld according to your logic they cannot die.

Trolls left the Underworld when the dead Sun arrived. They are no longer 'denizens of the underworld' when alive, but most go there when they die (to a region set aside where the Sun doesn't shine), or are reincarnated, or are sent to the Sky Realm if they are judged to be evil - their 'hell' is the Sky cults' 'heaven'.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

(4) So when you visit a grave are you dead?  When you keep a graveyard are you dead?  When you raid a tomb are you dead?  A deity can visit the halls of the dead without dying, much like a human can visit the Valley of the Kings without dying.  Not to say that either is without potential risks.

Graves and tombs are not in the Underworld. The Halls of the Dead are. Any deity in the Underworld is dead, at least part of the Time, even when they leave.

In terrestrial mythology, numerous deities, often agricultural, are accounted dead in the myths part of the time. For example, Persephone, or the older Dumuzi, who was sacrificed by Inanna/Ishtar to be dead at least part of the time as her own 'get out of the Underworld' card. Death doesn't mean in those mythologies that the deity is literally dead and inactive, forever, because they can be active even when dead.

In Gloranthan mythology, finding how to distinguish between the Living and Dead, and to separate them to inhabit their proper places is a widespread activity of ancient heroes and gods, and in some locations, the Dead are still a bit peeved at this and sometimes get out and about, if the proper rituals aren't observed. For that matter, in Glorantha Life and Death aren't the only axis, because there's the third state of Undeath which covers creatures like vampires and ghouls who are Dead but active in the realm of the Living.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

(5) Yes.  But they are not dead BECAUSE they are in the underworld, they are in danger because the underworld is potentially dangerous.

Everywhere in Glorantha is potentially dangerous. The Underworld has its own dangers; it is also dangerous to non-residents because although you may get in, you may not get out.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

(6) True.  And relevant.  If Orlanth's Ring only drops out of its cycle when Orlanth is dead, then obviously Orlanth wasn't dead at other times.

There are times when it is normal for Orlanth's Ring not to be in the Sky. It has a fourteen day cycle, being in the Sky for seven of those days.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

(7) True.  But there were clear winners and losers.  Yelmalio lost his fire powers because he keeps losing at the Hill of Gold.  The real winner IMO was Zorak Zoran.

The losers were either dismembered or utterly destroyed.

10 minutes ago, Darius West said:

You are utterly ignoring the part where it says that the Vanchites are MERCENARY and PRAGMATIC, and worship any god they think will aid them.  

No, I am saying why they are pragmatic.

10 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Vanch may well be the home of the Lanbril cult, as Lanbril myths do mention contact with the Solar cults, and it has to start somewhere.

The Lanbril 'cult' is not a unified cult. Lanbril is one of several thief gods.

11 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So what you are saying is that all trolls are undead because they come from the underworld and if you are in the underworld you are dead by definition? 

No, I referred to gods not native to the Underworld. If you are not native to the Underworld and go there, you are effectively dead, unless you can get out.

13 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The Lightbringers didn't die, they physically entered the underworld voluntarily under their own power as deities.  

They managed to get in, but getting out was far more difficult. They were in the Halls of the Dead - which means they were dead themselves.

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 When Sir Ethilrist or any other hero quester go into the underworld, they aren't dead unless they get killed. 

They are dead unless they can find a way out. Some Heroes get in and out of the Underworld several times, but if they fail once, they remain dead.

15 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Now Orlanth will get into dire trouble after the capture of Whitewall, but not on the Hill of Gold.

After the fall of Whitewall, Orlanth was trapped in the Underworld: his stars did not follow their cycle.

Neither Orlanth nor Yelmalio died at the Hill of Gold.

You need to read The Guide to Glorantha, not MRQ supplements.

21 minutes ago, Martin said:

Does anyone care to speculate on a list of planets that were still rising and visible in the sky during the Great Darkness?

Some planets first rose in the Darkness (Entekos and her children, Derdo (aka Lokarnos) and Vendara) but, as they spend time below the horizon died at some point during the Great Darkness. The only planet that didn't die was probably Mastakos, which is also associated with Uleria, (perhaps) the only surviving member of the Celestial Court.

When a planet rises and falls in the modern sky, it is spending time traversing the Sky and then the Underworld, indicating that it died before Time.

26 minutes ago, Darius West said:

If people have a reputation as thieves it is inevitably a well founded accusation.  They may not ALL be thieves but thievery will be a well established cultural practice.  You see, many people may throw around an accusation against their neighbors, but when it sticks, it is likely to be substantially true.  The Sartarites and Praxians raid for livestock, but they don't get called thieves for doing so, despite the fact it is definitely a form of thievery.  Why not?  Because it is within culturally acceptable and understood definitions.  Apparently the Vanchites have annoyed enough people over the centuries to gain a reputation, and travelers would be well advised to listen.

The more likely answer is that Vanch is a mixture of Sun and Storm cultures, and those two cultures have very different attitudes to hierarchy and honour.  Sun-worshippers consider Orlanthi to be rebels and thieves, because raiding is integral to their culture, whilst Storm-worshippers consider Sun-worshippers to be ruled by those who take but rarely bestow their wealth to their followers. (The two cultures have very different views, for example, on dividing up plunder in war - the Orlanthi have a relatively fair method of dividing spoil, whilst with Sun-worshippers the leader can take the lot, and only has to give out what they want to give out). Mix and merge those two traditions, and you end up with cultural practices which probably seem wrong to surrounding regions that are fully one or the other.

26 minutes ago, Darius West said:

ORLY?  Orlanth died?  So, that whole Lightbringer Quest... Never happened?  Yelm is still in Hell too apparently. What about Zorak Zoran?  Did he die too?  That means that Kajabor is still out there and the Great Compromise never happened.  Silly Sun worshipers. 

All the Lightbringers went to the Underworld, which is the equivalent of death for those not native to the Underworld. The Sun Emperor was there because he was killed by Orlanth wielding Death. Many deities died, meaning that they are not permanently 'alive' which is why the Sun sets every day to spend time in the Underworld before rising to life again. Orlanth's Ring of stars rises in the sky and falls. There's a distinction between deities who never died, those who died, those who stayed dead - often because their parts were dismembered - and those that were utterly destroyed and can never come back. The Red Goddess is an example of a dismembered deity, who was put back together in Time, and so lives again.

It is well known that when reviewing something, if you find an error, you are less likely to find nearby errors. This holds for text or software code, and is one reason for employing multiple reviewers, because they won't all notice the same set of errors, and to employ multiple passes. It seems to occur because the human mind can usually only concentrate on one thing at a time, and when concentrating on investigating one error, others become almost 'greyed out': the probability of detecting something else in the same sentence or paragraph significantly reduces, sometimes the same page.

However, employing multiple passes also results in diminishing returns, because two other factors come into play: seeing what you expect to see, and boredom, meaning that the reader skips over the material. It takes more effort to cover the same ground.

This is also why authors often are the worst reviewers of their own work, because they know what they intended to write, even if they didn't actually write what they intended, but when they read it, they often can't detect anything wrong. Word blindness becomes a factor.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Are they the same as (or related to) the "Lutrai" of Maniria/Wenelia (and if so, is it specified that there IS or that there IS NOT any communication/interchange between the populations?) ?

In the Great Darkness, Heort the Founder threw a rock at a dead otter fighting a live salmon and scared the ghost away; since that event, no otters are found in the Creekstream River or in Choralinthor Bay. This means there is a divide between western otters and those of the River of Cradles.

Page 6: called the power of Being – should be - called the Power of Being

Page 6: power of Becoming – should be - Power of Becoming

Page 7: their respective forms – should be - their respective Forms

Page 7: the form of a beast – should be - the Form of a beast

Page 7: though there are several Dragonewt Power cults, all modified by the Dragonewt Rune – is this still canonical?

Page 8: rejected that as a separate magical – should be - rejected it as a separate magical

Page 8: the power of Death – should be - the Power of Death

Page 10: god-talkers – on the previous page has the form – god talkers

Page 10: This document was written by the Carmanian mystic Hepherones of Ganbarri in the early Third Age, circa 1200. The insights are a remarkable synthesis of Carmanian dualism, humanism, and central Genertela pantheism. – Should be in italics.

Page 10: Notbeing – possibly – Not-being – or – Not-Being

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Drill or Mandrill?  

Members of the Cercopithecidae but not the genus Papio, so these can be discounted.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Anubis or Chacma baboon?  Or ... ?

Both large species or subspecies, and both might be used as a vague template, but Gloranthan intelligent Baboons are Papio Sapiens, a species with no terrestrial equivalent.

43 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 On the other hand it is a very Yelmalio local community, all as dedicated as football fans of a team that never wins.  Perhaps it is a solar holy place, given that the "gold" of the Hill of Gold is the copious flow of Yelmalio's blood?  A sad, humiliating commemoration of a defeat that is repeated over and over again.  

There are several files of Yelmalion Templars waiting outside to have a word with you...

In the Great Darkness just about every deity suffered a humiliating defeat - at least all the ones who weren't utterly destroyed. Even Orlanth.

The Hill of Gold is an important Yelmalion pilgrimage site, not just because of the opportunity to find crystalized pieces of their god's blood, but because it is a place where the Hill of Gold heroquest can be performed for various rewards, including defeating their god's enemies...

48 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The source is page 339 of the Guide to Glorantha.  It says that Vanchites are mercenary and pragmatic people who worship any god who can aid them, and that they have a reputation as thieves.  Think about it.  If your neighbors aren't of the same pantheon as you, why wouldn't you steal, and why wouldn't they steal things back?  It becomes a local sport that annoys non-competitors.

It says: Fairly or unfairly, the Vanchites have a reputation as thieves.

Whilst there are local variations, the Vanchites are a mixture of Orlanthi and Solar farming cultures dating back to the First Age. Given their geographic and historical position, on the ever shifting border between Solar and Storm empires, it is hardly surprising that the Vanchites are pragmatists.

General: various units of distance used in document: miles, kilometers (and km.). I believe the current standard are Imperial units.

Page 3: and evil of Chaos – should be - and the evil of Chaos

Page 3: They are 1. – suggest the use of semicolons instead of numbers.

Page 3: Peloria, in the north-center – should be - Pelora, in the north-center

Page 3: Genertela from Seshnela and Teshnos – should be - Genertela from Seshnela to Teshnos

Page 4: by Brithini – might be - by the Brithini

Page 4: Pelora has been home to many empires – might be - Peloria has been home to many empires

Page 4: Far eastern, Kralora – should be - Far to the east, Kralora

Page 4: West, past the lands of men, rolls the chill Western Sea, which has no bounds – and Slon?

2 hours ago, JonL said:

Reading the "Western Culture" section of the Guide, I was struck by the fact that while most Westerners have skin tones that correspond to the castes..

The Vadeli certainly do, though they are the antithesis of Western culture. Brown Vadeli are the commoners; Red Vadeli are soldiers; Blue Vadeli (hopefully extinct) were sorcerers; Yellow Vadeli (extinct) seem to have been the rulers.

The immortal Brithini have much the same coloration. Other Westerners seem to have lost to a greater or lesser degree their caste coloration; the Brithini would probably say this denotes their spiritual corruption as most are mortal, and only a few have longer lifespans than the humans descended from the animal peoples...

Starting a third pass, but very slowly.

I am increasingly of the opinion that the fact the Theogony should be treated as the God Learner introduction to the subsequent Elemental Pantheons (this may be the intent, but it isn't obvious from the formatting), all the way through to the end of The End of the Gods War chapter, and perhaps beyond. There might also be notes or annotations that the material is not entirely accurate: this gets around some of the blatant falsehoods. The same should hold for many other chapters as well. There's the fact that all of us know considerably more about their world/cosmos than any mortal inhabitant of Glorantha, and that instead of objective out-of-world facts, players and their characters probably need subjective truths - at least from their cultural perspective.

Much of the material leans heavily to a Sartarite viewpoint (woe to the Lunars - their magical regiments aren't detailed) so perhaps it should come with a large note that it is an in-world sourcebook instead of a game encyclopedia. For that matter, I recall reading somewhere that the design of the Runes as presented here and elsewhere are God Learner constructs, though widely accepted now.

Just a thought.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Oh dear.  I broke canon.  So what?  I like Mongoose's Second Ages stuff.  Isn't it up to individual GMs to decide? YGMV?

It is up to individual GMs to decide, but this is a public forum. Of all the Mongoose books, Dara Happa Stirs is the best and closest to canon. The others vary enormously in quality.

The penalty for using Mongoose books as canonical here is a trip to Dorastor with one of Ralzakark's avatars as your host...

8-)

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Glorantha: The Second Age: Core Rule Book (page89)  and the same entry on the Glorantha The Second Age sourcebook on page 101.

Both, at best, dubious God Learner constructs and highly unreliable, in addition to being uncanonical. No Mongoose books are part of canon.

The Urox cult have been alerted...

34 minutes ago, davecake said:

I am among the many who would love to see this giant treatise on Gloranthan Warfare! 

It isn't finished. Delayed by things such as proofreading The Glorantha Sourcebook. However, it is approaching its maximum page size.

25 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

• We also have a number of ruins and strange magical effects which kick off in Balazar and Elder wilds ( Griffin Mountain Special Encounters) which don't have explanation or reason.

All of the Mortal Lands of Glorantha are effectively a post-apocalyptic landscape. There was a great deal of 'history' before Time, and the current geography was very different in the God Time, and this has left an enormous number of scattered ruins and artefacts, most of which are inexplicable to the modern inhabitants. At the Dawn the ancestors of the Votanki at Arau numbered barely two hundred and fifty, and whoever they had been before, they survived the Great Darkness as hunter-gatherers. The region before Time seems to have been: part of the Solar Empire, drowned under water, covered by glaciers, a troll hunting ground, an Aldryami forest etc.

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Was Balazaar a Sairdite, Dara Happan or a Pelorian?

As a Yelmalion, he was probably a Sairdite.

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• In his reign was Balazaar more advanced or similar to now?

Probably at roughly the same level.

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Had the EWF previously had an civilising effects on Votankiland before Balazar arrived?

Votankiland had a human low population density, so EWF influence was limited in this borderland. Vontankiland was deemed as part of the empire, but probably more as a resource than as a territory.

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Did the EWF build anything in Votankiland, which has now been destroyed?

 

See above.

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Were there dragonewts in Balazaar in the EWF/ pre dragonkill war period?

Doubtless some were, as transient mercenaries of the EWF, but not a large presence.

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Who built highbridge and when? ( at least first age, maybe earlier)?

Legend says it was built by dwarves. It predates the Second Age, and is possibly a pre-Time relic.

Surface-to-air Rapier

8-)

54 minutes ago, jongjom said:

I'm surprised the amount of errors: the material that contradicts the Guide. Odd, given the authors.

Not really. There are no absolutes in Glorantha, and even the Guide contains (intentional) contradictions. I know this because I identified and reported some during the review process and was told they wouldn't be changed because they weren't mistakes.

56 minutes ago, jongjom said:

But knowing what you've looked for helps as it frees me up to go for different things. Pity they cannot send out an amended version. That would help too.

Based on my experience of working on other documents, making the changes which are accepted won't be a simple or quick task. We are talking almost as much effort as required to identify and report things (which in my case is around forty hours).

Some of the apparent discontinuities can be 'fixed' by making almost all of the Glorantha Sourcebook in-world documents written by Lhankor Mhy, Buserian or Irrippi Ontor sages.

Hepherones’ Statement of Magic, The Xeotam Dialogues, The Redline History of the Lunar Empire and The History of Dragon Pass are already in-world documents to a greater or lesser degree, and all appear to contain intentional inaccuracies, based on the subjective perspective of the author. This has advantages: it gives a 'get out of jail free' card when someone complains that the material contradicts another source, it demonstrates that Truth in Glorantha is elusive, and it provides information on the beliefs and bias of the 'author'. The resulting 'rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty' make Glorantha more 'real' than other fantasy worlds.

18 minutes ago, jongjom said:

Page 83 "They melted Mostali in their own pots and drank them." Done by Trolls?! When did trolls take up cooking?

This is from the Guide, page 81.

However, much of the material seems to derive from ancient articles in Wyrms Footnotes, Different Worlds and other places, which are often not easy to find.

Of the typos I have detected, at least one or two percent seem to be scanning errors, whilst others are because spellings have changed since the original material was written. Similarly, (for example) the material in the Sourcebook relating to Mostali religions (as previously noted) contradicts material in the Guide because it reflects articles written in the 1980s.

Am pleased you are finding errors I didn't because every reviewer looks for and spots slightly different things. I'm in two minds about doing a second pass.

The History of Dragon Pass chapter by Amstalli of Nochet is perhaps intended to be a collection of documents.

Page 136: Suggest the introduction ends with a statement along the lines of:

In answer to your request, gracious Queen, I have selected a number of scrolls from the shelves of the Great Library, amended and notated as necessary, for your perusal.

Page 152: The entries for Hendira and Samastina are very objective. Considering the intended in-world audience suggest:

Hendira (1610 to 1622). Born 1580 to House Norinel. Granddaughter of Norina and daughter-in-law of Valinalda. She recklessly sought an alliance with the Lunar Empire after the disappearance of Belintar. At her behest a Lunar Temple was built in our great city and foreign troops marched upon the sacred stones of our streets. Rumor has it that she took a Lunar general as a lover. So offended were the goddesses, the priestesses, and the people that her misrule led to civil war. She was rightfully ejected from the throne in 1622, and died in 1624, aged 44.

Samastina (1622 to present). Born 1603 to House Delaeos. Daughter of Marilaina (and great-granddaughter of Imarjira – also the niece of Hendira). By the blessings of Ernalda she was chosen to ascend to the rule of our city, to heal the wounds inflicted by her aunt. She has taken no husband as yet, but her lovers have included Broyan of Whitewall and Argrath of Sartar.

Page 163: Suggest at the end something like:

Thus are accounted the origins and events of the feud between the realm of Sartar and the Lunar Empire. As my Queen is aware, this struggle reprises the ancient feud between Sun and Storm for the body of the Earth, for the Moon has all but eclipsed the Sun in the North and ever seeks the dominance of the Middle Air. Now the Great Compromise is weakened and the gods are disturbed, even as their agents and agencies contest for the future of the world. Mighty heroes are gathering as ancient powers stir. And behind the scenes we can perhaps perceive the shadowy machinations of other powers best left unnamed.

Your faithful servant, Amstalli of Nochet