M Helsdon

15 minutes ago, Baelor said:

I like this thread a lot. My campaign has a less bronze age feel, so the harness tends more toward dark ages and medieval. I have Sartarites and others who share their technology in Vendel, Anglo-Saxon and Viking style stuff. One of the Brightwaters, a Grazelander woman named Sayyid, recently acquired this one:

A reconstruction of a lamellar Avar-style helmet based on one excavated at Niederstotzingen.

See: http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2005/0350-02410555161B.pdf

In Glorantha: possibly Carmanian?

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Personally, I'd also really like to see these in a face-on (or 3/4) view. 

That would take several days...

2 hours ago, g33k said:

They appear to be modeled/rendered in some sort of CAD, which (theoretically) would allow arbitrary angles of display...?

I'd very much like to do that but... this was drawn using MS Paint.

There's intended to be two additional aspects: an evolutionary 'line' from left to right on most rows (with obvious exceptions) and an indication of how designs and features are copied from one region to another.

The Pelorian row was initially intended to split and merge between Solar and Storm, but I couldn't find any tidy way to show this.

The Saird row was intended to show how a 'Phrygian' style helmet could appear in Glorantha, with the peak evolving from a stylized horse head.

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

As for Sherruffs, initially I utterly hated the concept and saw it as transposing a US model onto a bronze age village when I read it, but after a while I began to see some merit in the idea.  

Sheriff has an Anglo-Saxon origin, much like other Orlanthi terns such as thane or fyrd. As an official (a 'shire reeve') appointed by a king to keep the peace, it fits quite well into tribal Orlanthi culture. 8-)

[Not canonical but derived from studying illustrations in RQ2, the Guide to Glorantha, etc.]

A great variety of helmets are worn in central Genertela; the selection below is not definitive. Whilst certain designs are historically associated with particular regions, this does not denote the territory within which a particular helmet is found.

A: Pelandan

1 is knowns as a pseudo-mostali, claimed to be based on the helmets acquired by Daxdarius, and now worn only by gladiators. 2-6 are hoplite helmets, and may be worn by phalanx soldiers across Peloria, Dragon Pass and Prax.

B: Dara Happan

1 is a simple bronze cap; 2 adds a cranial ridge; 3-7 a nose-guard and various levels of added protection.

C: Pelorian

Some are clearly developed from the Pelandan helmets, though others, such as 5 are virtually identical to those worn by some Orlanthi. 10 is decorated with an embossed or incised moustache and beard.

D: Saird

Related to the Pelorian but 1-5 have a high and forward inclined lobate apex; in 1-2 stylized as a horse’s head. 6-7 are Yelmalion ‘hawk helms’.

E ‘Barbarian Belt’

1-3 are simple ‘pot’ helmets; 4 is more complex; 5 is imposing and the helm of a king or champion; 6 is fashioned from boars’ tusks; 7 is an example of a Grazelander helmet.

F: Helmet Furniture

A variety of forms of decoration are added to helmets, though usually only heroes, champions and officers so advertise their presence on the battlefield. Such furniture adds to the weight of the helmets and poses the risk of an enemy grasping it, so may be made to be easily detachable.

The helmets shown are only examples; such decoration can be added to almost all helmet designs at the whim of the wearer.

1-3 add horse hair crests; 4 has a plume; 5 a feather; 6 horns and is typical of an Uroxi helmet; 7, the Grazelander helmet includes a horse figurine with a tail made of hair. Nose-guards are often styled as Death or Truth Runes.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

That wasn't what I was talking about.  I was pointing out that there are no rules for normal childbirth (which is traumatic enough) to juxtapose with broo birth. 

Different Worlds #24 AD&D: Pregnancy And Adventure by Colleen A. Bishop (the Mostali issue).

Different RPG, but the system shock roll could be translated (into a CON x 5 roll with a failure causing damage depending on the level of failure), as well as the long-term CON results.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

 Please read my comment more closely.

Your comment was ambiguous...

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

I think that might be broo baby damage soltakss.  I was postulating how much damage normal birth does.  1d6+6 huh?  You must be very smart to be born with such a large head  

Normal birth for a broo is eating its way out...

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Except that all broo are immune to disease.

Quite possibly.

8 hours ago, Haimji said:

Sorry, is she fine now?

Numerous complications, I'm sad to say. Hope your father is okay.

8 hours ago, Haimji said:

So, my question stay : do you think an Ulerian wears something diffrerent in Temple and outside? I think yes, may be a more conservative dress outside (like p 244 for Pavis:GtA) and something more light (like in the paint you posted) inside.

I suspect that the costume varies both outside and in, with a different costume for each of the three 'aspects' inside a temple.

8 hours ago, Haimji said:

yes, that's my question : do you think costumes can vary from country to another one? I can imagine barebreast in Esrolia, dressed in white or white and green in Sartar not barebreast but short dresses, and in Pavis, like page 244. Something official to confirm or infirm that?

I believe it is inevitable that the regional costumes will vary. Uleria is a universal goddess, but her 'church' is not unified. I have only the speculations made earlier about the Esrolian costume: nothing canonical. Perhaps the forthcoming Notchet book will provide an answer, or jajagappa will post one here.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

I think so, too.  The questions are:  WHEN and WHERE would a priest/ess of these deities (and Uleria in particular, for the thread at hand) wear something similar?  High Holy Days only?  All services or rituals?  Whenever they are in the temple?  Only when in view of others?  Out in public?   And also:  TO WHAT DEGREE of similarity would they be expected to emulate the garb?  When/where/why & how much are they allowed (or required) to depart from any "general" standard?

The first question to ask is: which culture do those depictions come from?

One thing we often forget is that even in terrestrial cultures, the attributes of a deity could vary widely, even over a relatively small area. Any Classical Greek would consider the generally held views about one of their deities most people could give today both inaccurate and undetailed, even one such as Zeus. The same must be true for Glorantha, where the apparent geographical spread of a name gives the illusion of a uniformity that is unlikely to be valid everywhere. It would be tiresome to use the variant names for Orlanth across the 'Barbarian Belt', but on the other hand such variation indicates the variants in belief. The guide tells us that Orlanth's worship is influenced by the proximity to different holy mountains; almost all the material we have is true for Sartar, but unlikely to be so accurate elsewhere.

1 hour ago, Haimji said:

Sorry to being absent for a while but my father was at hospital, heart attack, he is 85 yo, but he is home now.

Sorry to hear that. My 82 year old mum had a heart attack in June.

1 hour ago, Haimji said:

I think they wear theses specific costumes only for holly days, and another costume for going out,  like catholic priests

Many of these costumes derived from court dress in the Late Roman Empire.

1 hour ago, Haimji said:

the only one official source i got is Pavis GtA, page 244, about the specific costume weared by a Ulerian who go out with a body guard : white linen underdress and white silk dress, no barebreast but the dress is splitted to see legs. That's remember me "les merveilleuses", a fashion style in Paris on 1800s.

Which may be a 'local' style, derived from the fairly strict Yelmalion dress code. The Uleria temple in Pavis is in Sun Town...

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

This is the only other version I find: http://66.media.tumblr.com/211abce7553fa5a3815caac79457c59e/tumblr_nkogcmtvxI1ruut3lo1_1280.jpg

Personally, I take those images as representing deities, not the usual everyday wear of their worshippers. Just as the Masks of the Gods in Pavis:GtA and the associated costumes are divine representations. There, the Goddess of Lust wears only a short cape, anklets and bracelets. [The goddess the Orlanthi identify as Uleria is on the bottom row, second from the right.]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

I still see this as being "seduced:"  away from the Way of Waha.  Granted, the Lunar Way has always been good at adjusting to / adopting many local Ways, as part of their own expansion.  Maybe it's just my own insufficient understanding of what the Lunar-influenced Sables did, how they lived, what their worship was like, etc ... ?

 

Bear in mind that many Praxians settled in Peloria in the First Age after the Battle of Argentium Thri’ile : the Sables are the only ones to have survived intact, and were recruited to the Lunar Way in 1275 because of their ancient link to the Twin Stars.

The Bison Riders founded dynasties of Sylila and Vanch - In 1349 the Bison Kings of Vanch were defeated by the Conquering Daughter during her Second Daughter’s Road campaign. It is significant that the Lunar Provincial regiment that retains a link to the time of the Bison Kings is the Foot Bison, who fight as light infantry.

I've been waiting to see if anyone noticed the doves in the painting - doves being the preferred vessels for Ulerian allied spirits...

1 hour ago, Yelm's Light said:

Unfortunately, the only Moon Design big book that I'm missing is Borderlands, so I can't check what they have it as under RQ2.  I expect that they at least changed CON from D4-based to D6-based.

Identical to the entry in the original Borderlands Referee Handbook quoted above.

5 minutes ago, Manu said:

Thanks for all these answers. But does that mean than the average people of Maslo are of the Agimori type? How can I describe them to my players? Men-and-a-half african men type? Mesoamerican type? Skin color? Hair? Size?

Primarily Agimori (though not Praxian Agimori) - dark skinned but with more variation than you'll find on the plains further south: black, dark red, dark brown, a few with grey/pale blue skin. Hair, probably black or dark brown. Size: normal human. 

Be warned that in terrestrial Africa and Mesoamerica, there's a significant variation in skin tone, so it is hardly surprising that the same is true in Glorantha.

19 minutes ago, g33k said:

 

Praxians can (in some ways) unite more-easily behind an outsider than behind one of their own!

Jaldon Goldentooth being an exception, which is why the White Bull secret society brought him back to lead the war against the Lunar Empire.

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

And is this also the STR/CON/SIZ (especially SIZ!) of the other races under discussion above?  Or is that not stat'ed out in canon?

 

Purely the Praxian Agimori. I am unaware of any canonical stats for the inhabitants of Pamaltela.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Does Gloranthan "canon" currently hold the Praxian Agimori to be "man-and-a-half" stature?  I have always interpreted that to mean:

The smallest Agimori was about average-human sized
The "average" Agimori was about the size of the largest regular humans
The largest Agimori are substantially larger than regular humans -- looking eye-to-eye with mounted riders (except High Llama), even looking down to see smaller riders.
Despite the frequent likening to the Zulu tribe, I have presumed the Agimori of Prax to be larger than the "real-world" Zulu.

In Wyrms Footnotes#12 and Borderlands Referee Handbook the Praxian Agimori are defined so:

STR 3D6+6

CON 1D4+14

SIZ 3D6+6

INT 3D6

POW 3D6

CHA 3D6

This makes them on average a bit tougher and taller than the average non-Praxian Agimori but not literally 'man-and-a-half' sized.

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Since the people of Teleos to the north are said to seem racially similar to the Agimori (apart from the skin colour) Guide p523, I'm inclined to say that the same is true of the Masloi and other Thinobutan descendants.  Most have dark coloured skin but some have red or gray according to the creation myth.

True: that's pretty much what I stated in my earlier comment.

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

The mention of escapees from Thinobutu on the ships of the Blue People is a Thinokosan myth (Revealed Mythologies p56) which has them also using tidal powers to defeat the waters in the first torrential war.  

It is also mentioned in the Guide.

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

When the comment about the pale blues of Thinokos first appeared in Revealed Mythologies, I considered it a mistake because the people of Maslo are not pale blues.  Since it has appeared authoritatively in the Guide, I find their origin to be rather obscure.  I kind of doubt they are Artmali-related as they wouldn't be distinguishable from the local blueskins.  They could be related to the Sendereven though. 

Whilst the God Learner maps in the Guide must be treated with caution (being God Learner constructs) from them it is apparent that Thinobutu and its inhabitants are not descended from the Agi or the Agimori. See the map on page 683, where the Thinobutu People are both distinct and distant from Pamalt's Fields. The map on page 684 makes it clear they are not Artmali either. The text on page 690 states that some people escaped from Thinobutu on the ships of the Blue People...

From this I draw the conclusion that whilst the majority of people in Maslo are pure Agimori, there is a relic population from Thinobutu of an undefined racial type (one of those 'Other minor human or semi-human races' mentioned in the Guide).

1 hour ago, Manu said:

Hi,

I plan to start a campaign in Maslo. In the GoG, it is said that 'they are of Agimori Physique'. I then imagined that they would be of dark skin, Like the one described in Jolar.

The people of Maslo are dark-skinned, but, as with the Wareran of Genertela, who are a fair to olive-skinned race (though blue and other hues are not unknown) there's considerable variation.

Their appearance and range of coloration might be gleaned from their myth of origin in Thinobutu where Soli made men and women out of red earth, brown sand, gray earth, and black mud. For example, the people of Thinokos have pale-blue skin and also claim to have come from Thinobutu.

4 hours ago, Haimji said:

Uleria is worshipped as Esrola in Dragon pass, so maybe the priestress wear a costume like others Esrolan preistress?

Yes and no. Esrola is the Land Goddess of Esrolia and also treated as an aspect of Ernalda. Esrola Uleria is worshipped only in a few places in Dragon Pass, and it is probable that her priestesses wear a different costume to purely Esrola clergy. Esrola Uleria is viewed very differently to Esrola: Uleria is viewed as one of the enemy gods - the goddess of all-consuming passion, whose influence drive men to fight with or abandon their own kin, whereas Esrola is the manifest Earth and the Earth mother. So in both Storm and Solar cultures Uleria is a goddess who must be restricted.... The Dara Happans think Orlanth is the son of Uleria...

4 hours ago, Haimji said:

In Esrola, if i had understand, Uleria is worshipped as himself, not a subcult. So perhaps the priestress wear a distinctive costume, like the one in Pavis.

In Esrolia, there is a temple to Uleria at Ezel, and I imagine lesser shrines in Nochet (if Seseine has a temple there then Uleria can hardly be excluded).

4 hours ago, Haimji said:

So, is this distinctive costume like you can see page 244 in Pavis GtA, the same all over genertela?

I doubt it, as different cultures will have different views as to what is alluring or seductive.

I would not be surprised if the Ulerians who travel around Sun County aren't fully clothed and veiled so as not to scandalize the social mores of the Yelmalions, but remove a layer or two in a sacred setting, and several more for worship. Conversely, given that Esrolians aren't going to be shocked by Minoan styles, a Ulerian might 'cover up' in gauzy silks or linen, which both conceal and display.

Whilst the Holy Country has lost much of its 'Egyptian' feel (though kohl-rimmed eyes, close-fitting tube dresses and linen are still present), I suspect Ulerians favor diaphanous fabrics, especially thin silk and the sort of fine linen the Ancient Egyptians called 'royal linen', or even wear 'bead-net dresses' either sewn onto a linen dress or worked into a separate net worn over the linen, or lacking any backing at all...

Perhaps a scene in a Nochet temple to Uleria...

20 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yeah.  Prince of Sartar just follows the cues previously given by Gloranthan canon... but it IS a nice place to grab som vivid imagery when that's wanted!

I wouldn't be surprised if, in Esrolia, Ulerian initiates and priestesses aren't more demure in their costume that others. The costume of Samha on page 244 of Pavis:GtA might be imported from Esrolia: certainly the linen and perhaps the silk are.

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

LOL, Esrolian priestesses be like "tits out for the goddess" Minoan style according to Prince of Sartar webcomic.  What are Uleria-ing at?

If you peruse HeroQuest: Glorantha, you'll find Minoan-style dresses are common in Esrolia; less common in Sartar because of the climate.