Darius West

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

as rule keeper ( I am the gm after all 😛 ) I dislike to consider money for something else than secular -how much I  disliked the gold = xp from d&d. I know there is the "matrix workaround" -you pay, you gain POW-equivalent, but that is yet for me a concern

Well, I understand the limits of the 1gp=1xp system, but for D&D at its primitive stage of development, that was actually a pretty good rule, as it actually provided a means of getting stronger without recourse to violence and murder.  For me it smelled like an attempt at providing a means for actual roleplaying to occur as opposed to wargaming, by creating an alternative xp economy.  Later on of course, the idea of giving players xp based on completing an encounter successfully became a thing.  The BRP skill tick system is so much better imo, but it suffers from its own micro-rorts of course.  (How does a character wind up with "dwarf wrapping" at 60% ?)

As to the problems with what you call 'pay for power', well, it can definitely work, and work well, its just that the GM needs to get a little stingy and make players work hard for their coin.  Personally, I have had characters forced to put their magic storage crystals up as collateral on loans, or selling used trollkin cuirboulli in the Godsday open market in order to make rent.   I make characters worry about where their next payday is coming from.  This is part of why owning land is so great, you get at least one good payday per year.  

As to that matrix workaround, I don't think it applies to initiates anymore.  They don't learn enchantments in RQG, that seems to be limited to Rune levels.

I would draw people's attention to RQG page 406.  This places the value of 1MP at 1L, a single use of a reusable RP at 20L, and a single use of a non-reusable RP at 200L.

If we then think about the 7 Cow sacrifice favored by the Lightbringers (at least according to KoDP computer game, but hey, it's lore friendly enough for me), that would mean such a sacrifice is worth 140L.  On the other hand, a single cow on RQG 316 is worth +20% to Worship.  Does that mean that 7 cows=+140% worship?  The same can be achieved by spending 28MP (total value 28L).  With rules as they stand at the moment, I can't imagine any Gloranthan ever sacrificing anything ever unless it was for the most perverse motives.

I personally would like to see local deities using sacrifices to buff the skills of Clan Members while in their lands, as in the KoDP computer game, and when you price it, that's a pretty reasonable expense for a clan. 

I am also inclined to think that if characters want to spend 200L, they can have a free +1RP, courtesy of a grateful deity, with the Lightbringers getting a special 60L discount for a 7 cow sacrifice.

This means that GMs need to pinch players' pennies a bit more than usual, but I personally have always found the juxtaposition of 'High Piety meets Penny Pinching Greed (Desperate Materialism, both physical and spiritual) to be one of the more amusing inner conflicts of RQ in all its versions.

You young whippersnappers probably don't remember what it was like back in RQ2 when after being ransomed back to New Pavis, you had to beg, borrow, cajole, and wheedle to scrape together enough equipment to mount a fresh rubble expedition to cover those outgoings and set you up with a fighting chance to claw your way back. 

Where's my "waves his walking stick emoji" at?  Now get off my lawn! 🧙‍♂️☹️

I think I'll go and have a nice lie down now.😉

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There will be social benefits from sacrificing an edible animal.  Most people don't get much meat any other way, see the income level notes.  Let's say a trader is new in town, sells his goods and goes to the local shrine to worship and recharge MPs.  If he wants to get on the right side of people he hardly knows, bring a sacrificial pig for a barbecue plus an amphora if beer.  But this needs to be role played and GM'd.  Hard to write down the social benefits as a rule.

This is a very good point.  In the Classical world it is a known fact that only the fat was sacrificed to the Gods, and the meat went to feed the community.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Book of Doom has a whole section on ritual sacrifice.

Thanks for the heads-up.  I don't own that yet.  What are some salient points from those rules (if you have the time Soltkass)?

54 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

you may gain reputation (look this guy offered twenty pink cows last year in sacrifice)

you may gain loyalty (to the temple, to the clan or any community level, to your friend you need so much the gods help)

and it is too the only mean I know to help someone else to improve her worship skill (you sacrifice mp for yourself, you may give the cow to the other one, who gains then the benefit of the sacrifice)

So, how many MPs does the sacrificed animal have?  Do they go to the god when it is sacrificed?  

Within Glorantha, many societies perform sacrifices as part of their worship rituals.  Presently the rules on RQG p316 cover the idea of sacrifice, but they only provide a small bonus to a priest's chances of a successful worship roll.  This doesn't seem sufficient imo, especially given that the priest can pre-boost their roll by 10% per 2 magic points they use.  Given that magic points are replenished daily, why would anyone ever sacrifice 300L worth of animals or goods for a benefit that amounts to 4MP?  Most adventuring parties would be very happy to receive 300L as their payout for an adventure, and the notion that they would spend this for a minor bonus on a worship skill roll seems like spending a small fortune for a wholly inadequate return, especially as a decently skilled priest likely doesn't need the skill boost at all.

We are also not getting a sense of the role that such sacrifices perform in the life of the clans and tribes, which should be substantial.  I don't know if the upcoming Game Master's Book for RQG is going to have rules that cover this in more detail, and it may be considered an unpleasant topic for some people, but these forms of worship were and still are performed by many cultures irl, and RQG is incorporating these ideas to some degree within the game, not actually harming animals.  

Personally I would like to talk about creating a more in-depth system that incorporates systems of sacrifice into RQG in a balanced fashion, producing larger results.  I suspect that sacrifices and special worship ceremonies may be very important for the life of a clan, a tribe, and each of the individuals within them.  I like the idea that the sacrifice creates powerful magical energies that might be channeled into powering a Wyter, or preparing for a hero quest, or creating generalized magical effects that the tribe can call upon on a daily basis as a result of their efforts.  I also like to suppose that if an individual shows particular piety by offering a large sacrifice, that they stand to be rewarded with more than a bonus to their worship skill.  On the other hand, how do we balance such things?  What do people think?  What systems are like-minded GMs presently using?

On 4/13/2022 at 5:00 AM, dumuzid said:

Troll worship of these powers is not nearly so cut-and-dry, as is often the case with trolls and the relationship between theism and animism.  Per the old Troll Gods, Gorakiki hives have senior initiates called pupae, who would seem to be equivalent to priests under current Runequest rules, and the highest levels of the cult are only accessible to pupae who also become full shamans, called imagoes.

If I had my preferences, trolls would have no priests, only shamans, but the rules have consistently said otherwise.

On 4/30/2022 at 11:33 AM, Ormi Phengaria said:

Chaos is oblivion-- it is not merely raw, unfiltered creation tohu wa-bohu, but truly is non-existence. The great transcendent Nothing is like Everything, and is connected to it, but that connection is not itself chaos. This is the first division; these are the cosmic twins, and though like any other pair of opposites they can be reunified, this does not abrogate the fact that chaos is oblivion.

That is one form of Chaos, and a state akin to what some Draconic mystics actually seek to achieve, believe it or not.  The difference being that Draconic mystics come back from it if they want to.  Chaos is also what comes from the Unholy Trio's tainting of the Primal Plasma (the original source of life), which is now known as the Chaosium. 

Delete this comment plz.

On 4/27/2022 at 3:11 PM, Ironwall said:

What exactly is the line when is something cruelty and selfishness and when is something chaos. Is this even a line or is it a blurry image? Gargathi tortures people to create whirlveshes but they aren't chaos so when is something chaos?

It is probably better to think of Chaos like a form of biological taint which can sometimes produce superpower mutations (or awful crippling effects).  Chaotic creatures use those overwhelmingly destructive powers for bad purposes, so nearly everyone hates them.

5 hours ago, Trollkin Philosopher said:

Chaos and order are primal opposites like light and dark. In the real world, people pine for things like order and justice in an amoral, indifferent universe of formless chaos. Good people suffer and wicked people prosper. That's the nature of chaos. The absence of the order and justice that we pine for.

In Glorantha, Chaos and Law are not really opposites in that way.  Arrquong the Harbinger of Chaos is famously fond of Sorcerers of the West, whose deity carries the Law rune, famously saying that "the men of the West never did us any wrong".  In Glorantha, there is a different dynamic going on, and it is the forces of Disorder who are the major adversaries of Chaos.  This is because Glorantha is about escalation, and the disorder deities are presently dominant in the world, having already subverted and conquered the "lawful" forces during the Lesser Darkness.  Chaos arrives in the Greater Darkness, and it is Disorder that is its foe.  The way Greg put it, you become like the enemy you fight... Fight the Kingdom of War, become the Kingdom of War.

On 5/1/2022 at 12:47 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

But charisma was in your post 😊 well it was what I (mis)understood too

LOL, my bad, so it was, and a good thing too.

20 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

Which new administration?

The new administration being the White Bulls.  I have taken the info on New Pavis under Lunar occupation and reworked it to turn it into a city under a Gloranthan bronze age war economy under Argrath and his various regional allies.

On 4/19/2022 at 3:54 AM, Baba said:

So, after seven years, Camlann is coming up for us, and I want it to be as good as it can be.

When you played through it, what did you think worked well, and what less so? What did you change from the Great Pendragon Campaign? Are there any fun ideas from your playthrough that you were happy with, or any ideas you got afterwards that you wish that you had used?

Treat it like Ragnarok. Old and fated enemies meet and die in mutually assured destruction.  Passions boil. Ideologies and ambitions clash, and the chivalry of Britain achieves what no outside force could ever manage, its own mindless annihilation.  Perhaps highlight the futility of it all Bhagavad Gita-style with a foreshadowing by a saint or pagan magician, given that Merlin is now entombed and cannot do that narration.  Plenty of nasty deaths need to be described as epitaphs for some great characters.  Make sure to go out with a bang and not a whimper.  Don't do a GoT and phone in the last ep.

On 4/13/2022 at 8:58 AM, Ian Thomson said:

Whitebull New Pavis is probably more the realm of the new official material I imagine

I have already written up my own notes on the evolution of the city under the new administration if anyone wants to compare.

20 hours ago, JRE said:

It is not a positive proof, but if I remember right, we have no proof either they survive in the Fourth Age. I have King of Sartar in a box somewhere, but I got the impression they were not really in the stories. And keep in mind that the premise is that the material world loses contact with the Godtime, and all immortals either go away or die, and I would apply that to dragonewts.

The fact is that the dragonewts never featured heavily in the history of Glorantha, which is largely written for and by humans imo.  Now it is possible that someone broke into the dragonewt cities and smashed all their eggs, as happened before the Dragonkill, but as there are plenty of active dragons during the Hero Wars, it might be suicide.  

That being said, using the boardgame Dragon Pass, I can also raise the counter-argument that if one side of the Hero Wars managed to ally the dragonewts, that doesn't preclude the other side using a dragon to destroy the dragonewts...  But then again, is that really lore-friendly, even if it could feasibly happen in the boardgame?

20 hours ago, JRE said:

And in any case, if after 1800 years and a Hero War you have not made it to dragon, you will not do it in the magic-less fourth age.

Yeah, what can you say about creatures that have existed and reincarnated since Before Time and haven't quite figured out what this whole "eating" thing is all about *snortlaugh*.  It is fair to underline the incompetence of the remaining dragonewts JRE, and I sometimes think that their idiosyncratic behavior may be a product not of the dragon path, but their ingrained long term dumbassery being translated into dogmatic and ritualized foolishness. But, we must always respect and give other cultures the benefit of the doubt, even (I must stress this), regardless of how ridiculous their antics may appear to be.  The fact is, the dragonewts do have a very strange and wonderfully alien society, and the EWF has demonstrated that there is real power and potential there, and frankly I am very fond of them as a literary creation quite apart from their use as NPCs in RQ.

To your actual point however, for the most part, dragons seem to be immune to the long term effects of humanity's mistakes and own-goals in Gloranthan history.  Their magic is completely independent of the Theistic, sorcerous, and even shamanistic systems, as it is mystical in its inclination, and the fact that the Dragons are the one that haul down the Moon suggest to me that they and the dragonewts will be doing their own thing through the 4th Age and beyond.  I can't see them boarding ships and sailing to the Grey Havens (forgive the comparison plz).

19 hours ago, Jose said:

Uhm... So, does it have Charisma and multispell or not? Just asking. 🤔

Jose, in short the answer is no, or I would have included them.  Should they be included?  Ah, well, that's a different question.

On 4/27/2022 at 1:39 PM, JDS said:

We just finished our 33rd session in my Tuesday campaign. That's 147 hours so far, and my investment is $50. Five players and me, that means I'm at a nickel a man-hour, and its still got a long way to go. 

Good stats there.🙂

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

And that's what Reflection is for 😁

LOL good point but it never happened.  This was back in RQ2 times.  Not many people spent points on reflection.

On 7/10/2018 at 11:00 AM, jeffjerwin said:

I'm trying to throw together Donandar for the new rules.

Donandar is coming out in RQ:Gods of Glorantha.  I have an advance copy.  Here is what the cult gets in the new write-up using your format:

On 7/10/2018 at 11:00 AM, jeffjerwin said:

Donandar, God of Music, Dance and Theater                   I

llusion, Harmony, Movement

Initiate Membership

Requirements Standard

            Cult Skills Act,  Dance, Dodge,  Orate, Play Instrument, Sing, Worship (Donandar)

            Favored Passions: Loyalty (troupe)

            Spirit Magic: 1/2 price=Bladesharp, Coordination, Glamour, Healing

Rune Magic

Common Rune Magic Command Cult Spirit, Extension, Find Enemy, Multispell, Sanctify, Warding

            Special Rune Magic Charisma, Group Laughter, Harmonize, Illusory Motion, Illusory Sight, Illusory Sound, Invisibility, Switch Places [see Cults Compendium]

            Enchantments: Ban, Binding Enchantment, Magic Point Enchantment, Matrix Creation, Specific Armor Enchantment,

 

Rune Priest 

Requirements: 2 cult skills at 90%+, CHA of 15+, pass a test of holiness of POWx3 on 1d100.  There must be a need for a new priest.  Must attend to the spiritual needs of the troupe. Give 50% income in tithe, spend 30% of time on cult business.

 

Associated/Friendly Cults (spirit magic only, except Eurmal)

Ernalda, Orlanth and Yelm are all associated with Donandar, and provide shrines to his brothers...

            Skovari:  Patron of lusty and comedic music with shrines at Ernalda temples:  Teaches cheap Heal and Glamour.

Molamin: Patron of courtly music. Provides Truetune.

Truetune (touch temporal, non-stackable)

Cast on a stringed instrument, it doubles the skill of anyone trying to play it.

Drogarsi:  Patron of war dances and epic poetry.  Orlanth temples may have shrines to him.  Teaches cheap bladesharp and coordination.

I think your version is better fleshed out Jeff.  The RQ:GoG version doesn't focus enough on Theater or poetry imo.  Donandar is a small cult despite having holdings in several ruins in Dragon Pass via the Puppeteer Troupes.

On 4/20/2022 at 2:39 PM, g33k said:

Hey folks, considering some HR's on magic.

As "Shimmer" is a blur-your-outline effect, I am seriously considering it "should" help with stealth skills, to bypass any sort of visual search (obviously no help vs. being heard)... standard 5% per point.

Obviously, YGMV & MGF and my-table / my-game &c.  Also, it's clearly nothing game-breaking, nor does it seem like it'd conflict with setting/myth.

It just takes an "OK, but no more than that" spell, and makes it a bit more versatile & therefore more attractive.

Thoughts?

I'm not against beefing up the usefulness of a spirit magic spell that is otherwise pretty useless.

The cry is often heard in games "That fool is shimmering!  Bombard them with spells, they have no countermagic!"

On 3/29/2022 at 9:14 PM, JRE said:

The Dragons know this is coming, and from their side it is the last opportunity for the last True Dragons to leave their breeding grounds in Glorantha, to roam other universes, and why they make available the resources of the old EWF, as they try to force growth and enlightenment in the remaining proto-dragons. They also play all sides, as their aim is enlightenment and then leaving the world in a ritual Utuma, and that cannot be achieved from only one direction.

I don't think this is the last True Dragons.  Just the latest batch.  There is little to suggest that the dragonewts go extinct as a result of the Hero Wars.

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

“Spirit magic works against spirit” is a new assertion and is unsafe.

In essence the way the idea of spirit spells is described is that they are magic performed by spirits invoked for the performance of the spells.  When I say spirit magic is used against spirit, to clarify, I mean that it is a shamanic magic system that works according to a paradigm that magic is all about spirits.  I agree that I expressed that badly.

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Spirits aren’t essentially the same. Dominate and Demoralize are clearly different.

 Mechanically, within the rules, both spells are POW vs POW.  RQG rules does reduce all spirits to 3 stats.  While Dominate and Demoralize are from different magical traditions, it would only be a minor tweak to treat Demoralize as a sorcery spell, and Dominate as a spirit spell.

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

What about dominating things that have no flesh?

Glorantha is made of runes, and it is the runes that are controlled.  Dominate Humanoid controls the man rune.  Dominate Beast controls the beast rune.  Dominate Spirit controls the spirit rune, and Dominate Elemental controls the element rune appropriate to the elemental.  On the other hand, human meat in Glorantha is the manifestation of the man rune.

On 4/21/2022 at 9:32 AM, Ian Thomson said:

This will be a bundle of introductory stuff around Storm-favoring newcomers arriving in New Pavis and settling in

Infiltrate Badside. This is a job for newcomers only.  The White Bulls know there are clandestine Lunars operating in the Big Rubble much as the Orlanthi used to.  While this knowledge meant that most Orlanthi rebels and bandits did a good job of stopping this, some Lunars managed to slip through.  Evidence suggests that they are now using elements in Badside as their intermediaries.  As the players are newcomers, and not well known, if they can slum it in Badside until they can find out who the lunars are, they will be guaranteed access to a rental property in New Pavis, and a year's rent free.

Catch Rubble Runners.  Cock-fights, cat fights, dog fights, fish fights, the folk of New Pavis have an appetite for betting on animals fighting each other.  The problem is that someone always takes issue with them.  The latest version however has the nay-sayers beaten, as no cult protects or cares about rubble-runners, and getting them to fight to the death is now a somewhat lucrative business.  Interested parties are prepared to pay 1L per SIZE point of live rubble runner, for as many as you can catch, as supplies of the creatures are low, and New Pavic bloodlust is high.  Where do you catch the biggest rubble runners if not in the Big Rubble?

Wanted Dead or Alive.  A series of mysterious crimes have been taking place in New Pavis.  Sometimes striking the wealthy, other times the poor, but often striking criminals or suspected criminals.  Nobody knows who the perpetrator is, save that they seem to be of no known species,

and their crimes are always audacious, outrageous, incriminating to the victim and humiliating.  Their crimes are often sealed with a bat marked in red sealing wax.  What sort of maniac could be behind these deranged crimes?

Infamous shit-hole needs new goons.   The Reed Inn (D15) is in trouble.  It has always been in trouble but now it is slightly worse.  Its owner Bagzaga Rag is a Dark Troll of Argan Argar who runs the bottom-of-the-bottom lowest quality drinking hole in New Pavis, that makes Loud Lilina's look like a palace.  Bagzaga used to pay kick-backs to the "Red Bastards" street gang when the Lunars were running the city, but now the God's Own gang from Sunside is looking to run her out of town, if not kill her.  The place is terrible.  The beds are piles of tied reeds, as is the furniture.  Much of it is riddled with various form of insect life which Bagzaga insists are free and tasty treats for her guests.  The alcohol is barely drinkable, but will get you buzzed, but makes prison "toilet wine" look classy.  Its clientelle are also disreputable low-lifes despised by the rest of Pavic society.  Many locals want to get rid of this weeping sore in an otherwise respectable district.  For all this, somehow, Bagzaga manages to run a profit, and she is prepared to pay for protection.  Will the players consider this unusual offer?

Just go and take a look.  A local Lhankor Mhy sage and a Daughter of Pavis are pooling their resources to uncover a mystery, or so they say.  They seem to think that there are a system of 8 fountains across the Big Rubble, one in each of the main districts, that don't fit.  They are supposed to be from the founding of the city, but depict Pavis as a deity, which is chronologically impossible.  There may even be a ninth fountain in the Puzzle Canal.  The learned folk want the players to go to the supposed locations, and note whatever they can about the fountains, confirming their existence or not, and to take rubbings or make sketches if possible.  Pay is surprisingly good for what should be an easy job with no fighting.  Nothing is every what it seems in the Big Rubble though.

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

Wow. That is just weirdly off mark.

Look Yelmalio and Elmal are the same god, whatever you want to call him. I've walked through the story it seems like a thousand times, so just search for one of the many times I have had to do that.

Big picture, there is a Yelmalio cult network that extends from Fronela to Prax. These are the Sun Dome temples. Most were founded in the First and Second Ages. In the late Third Age, the Hendreiki sun god Elmal was proven to be another name of Yelmalio and that revelation resulted in a great outburst of creative energy for the Yelmalio cult. The Sartarites and Lunars both support the Yelmalio cult - if for opposite reasons. The Sartarite princes support the cult because it is hostile towards the Red Goddess (unlike Yelm); the Lunars support the cult because of its neutral stance towards Orlanth.

Jeff

So you side with Harvar Ironfist then?  Nay I say, and thrice nay!  Elmal and Yelmalio are not the same god and have never been so.  You speak of Sun Domes.  They are hives of villainy.  Good Elmali don't worship at them, but at their Orlanthi village shrines and temples.  Yelmalios enter into Snakepipe Holow not to fight chaos but to placate and worship at its shrines!  They have similar magics, it is true, but not the same. Elmal is the gate guard and horse master of the Orlanthi, and Elmal has the fire rune not the light rune.  Elmal never bled out his fire on the Hill of Gold, because he never went to the Hill of Gold, and did not fight his liege Orlanth for that would be the very definition of disloyalty but Elmal is the Loyal thane, and so Elmal retains his fireblade and firearrow spells. Now it is true that he is not worshipped as widely as Yelmalio, but he fought hard through the Long Winter and with the New Ring of Orlanth risen his time is coming again anew.  It is time to purge the false cult of Yelmalio, which is riddled with hidden Thanatar worship.  This revelation by Monrogh was false and the product of Chaotic illumination, and only dreamed up recently and After Time, and a means by which the Lunars sought to spread dissention among the Orlanthi by making their loyal Elmal thanes think they are part of the Solar Pantheon, and follow a Yelm pantheon quisling version of Elmal.  The loyal Elmali of Far Point will never succumb to this sleazy lunar ploy.  The Lunars and Solars may look down their noses at the Elmali, calling them parochial savages, and the Elmali fight in the Orlanthi way as part of the shield wall, not as phalangites, but the Elmali bring fire-power to the battle field, and have their lord and friend the wind to fan those flames.  You speak falsely and as a scion of Lunar tyranny, and the Elmali will never bow to these falsehoods.

12 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Elmal = Yelmalio. As far as I'm aware, no one in Glorantha sees them as different cults, and even before then the issue was more that the southern Orlanthi didn't know about Yelmalio in the first place.

Not so.  That is godlearnerism.  Elmal is Orlanth's loyal thane, while Orlanth fought Yelmalio on the Hill of Gold.  If they were the same deity, Orlanthi myths would recognize that.  Much of the repression conducted by Harvar Ironfist was to force the Tarshite tribes of Far Point to give up on Elmal worship.  They are not the same deity, as Yelmalio only came into existence 60+ years ago and is a chaotic lunar plot to sow dissent and encourage covert Thanatar worship among loyal Elmali tribes.

On 4/25/2022 at 10:57 PM, Godlearner said:

That is like saying that material and spirit world are one which is not the case. They are interdependent but are clearly separate. 

It is perfectly possible to refuse to recognize spirits as being anything other than magical detritus.  

I think this is something of a "how long is a piece of string" question.  The string is as long as it needs to be for its purpose, unless and until it breaks.

As to how often characters visit Camelot, well, how often do they need to go?  Whenever I've played, I think we visited Camelot at least once per year, and sometimes more when there were matters to report on.  If you want glory, it is wise to try to get yourself invited to the Feast of Pentecost at Camelot.  Of course you may not see Arthur every year, but you are likely to find someone to provide patronage if you rub shoulders with the powerful.  Of course this may not be possible if your own subenfeudalization means you owe first duty to another lord than Arthur.