Darius West

22 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Even if what you say is true, and I have serious doubts about a lot of what you said there, this does not cover the Theist or Animist's point of views. The body is the body, a meat suit if you will, while the spirit is the mind and is eternal. In this case controlling the body restricts movement and actions, but does not affect the mind. Then you overcome the spirit in POW vs POW roll you do not necessarily subjugate the mind, but rather remove its control of the body.

That is something of an artefact of the system though.  Yes we roll POW vs POW, but it might also be called WILL vs WILL or Sorcery vs Target's Permanent Magic Rune Concentration or any number of other things.  Mind and body are one in a materialist paradigm.

18 hours ago, g33k said:

In larger battles, though, you likely have specialized units aimed at behind-enemy-lines operations... Teleport, Fly, Invisibility, etc.

BUMP

On 4/22/2022 at 8:34 PM, David Scott said:

Ghosts are not Undead

This...👍

On 4/20/2022 at 9:17 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

you move the body but cannot obtain :

- any answer (a body can make sound, not answer)

- order anything to do (you don't give the target "any autonomy" to do things)

or I miss something ?

same if you dominate a human possessed by another human spirit   ? who are you dominating ?

 

The brain is part of the body.  So is the nervous system.  This is the materialist paradigm of sorcery.  Control the body, control the mind, because the mind is part of the body. Spirit is a delusion to sorcerers, as it is just a shell of residual POW that exists after someone dies.  A ghost is not a person to sorcerers, it is just an echo on the mythic energy background.  If we started worrying they were all somehow "people", not just spirit trash, then what would we tap?  Clearly all good Malkioni's souls go straight to Solace, and these "spirits" they leave behind are simply a product of their shedding of their sins.😉

On 4/21/2022 at 2:03 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

My favorite trick when playing an Orlanthi PC against enemy formations is the Teleport spell. Some coordinated Teleportation can do wonders to shatter a shield wall. Along with all the other spells an Orlanthi clan can bring to bear. 

I am aware of the trick, and  suggest you always try to take out the commanders in the first hit (The ol' cut the head off the snake trick).  For your average Sartarite who only has 3RP that is a high risk strategy tho.  

IMO, in Gloranthan warfare where RP are scarce for most people, you want to minimize the magic you use for maneuver so you can use it for keeping yourself alive with Heal Self (to keep your limbs from falling off at embarrassing moments), Shield and similar magic.  That means mundane maneuvers like various forms of "unzipping the line" will be preferred.  Skirmishing would be good too. 

30 minutes ago, JDS said:

Not bad. When did the Ganges become holy? Polluted, yeah, but Holy? 

Anyway, this is for a campaign set in 1776 using Flames of Freedom (realistic).

In fact the Ganges has been holy for thousands of years as Ali the Helering suggests.  Herodotus refers to the rites on the Ganges and says they were being carried out for thousands of years before he saw them.  In terms of the holiness of the waters, they are extremely rich and teeming in bacteriophages, which are microbes that eat many of the things that pollute the river.  In any case, the British East India Company were well esconced in India in 1776, and in fact signed the Treaty of Purandar with the Maratha Empire that year.  Potentially Americans who were prepared to at least pretend they were British Subjects might be able to travel to the Ganges unmolested, but it might take months.

17 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Wonderfully crafted grimoires have a nasty tendency of going unopened, unread, and torched at the first opportunity....

Heh.  My parties almost always read them, and sought to abuse the spells, going more than a little mad, and ultimately having their abuse of power blow up in their faces.

On the other hand, they also almost caused multiple TPKs because they could never organize who was paying the phone bill in their share house.

Player: "OMFG Call the police!"

(me) Keeper: You lift the receiver and the line is dead.  Then you remember that even after 3 arguments, nobody actually paid the phone bill.

Players: (collapse into mutual recriminations while facing a fresh threat).

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but in that case...

what can you obtain with dominate human ?

you move the body but cannot obtain :

- any answer (a body can make sound, not answer)

- order anything to do (you don't give the target "any autonomy" to do things)

or I miss something ?

same if you dominate a human possessed by another human spirit   ? who are you dominating ?

 

While I said the spell controls the flesh, how is that possible?  I think, more specifically that it controls the nervous system, and to a large degree, the brain as the seat of that nervous system.  This is not the same as controlling the spirit, which is CHA and POW but more like controlling the INT, while not specifically saying so.

I think the implication is that the dominated individual has to follow the Sorcerer's direct and specific orders unless they go against one of their passions, in which case they can resist. 

The fact is that the write up for dominate species on 394-95 is a bit sparse and non-specific imo.  IDK if these spells received a treatment in the Red Book of Magic, but if they did, I would love to know what it says, as I don't own that book yet.

I think the important thing about dominate is that it is a cruel spell.  You can't do anything but what you are told to do.  Worse still, the spell lasts for the length of the duration, even if the sorcerer dies.  Your body is likely to breathe, fall asleep, urinate, defacate etc without "permission", but according to natural rhythms, not the victim's control, which can be humiliating.  I assume that food and drink placed in the mouth can be consumed, but more as an animal reaction than with any conscious control.  The sorcerer can order the victim to perform these personal tasks, but must do so directly, and cannot use hand-wavium to just say it happens, as potentially a command like "do as you please" can utterly break the domination.

On 4/18/2022 at 8:17 PM, soltakss said:

Interestingly enough, RuneQuest Glorantha uses a mixture of generic and specific skills.

So, it has 1H Axe, 1H Hammer, 1H Mace and 1H Spear but has Broadsword, Kopis, Rapier and Shortsword as separate skills, presumably because swords are "special" in some way.

Swords are not "special" there are just a few different types in use, and they all perform a little different in untrained hands.

Page 207 specifies that characters will have full skill with the weapon type they are actually familiar with, but can use any weapon in the same class i.e. 1h sword, 1h axe etc. at half skill. 

In terms of base weapon values, the table you have included, this is for people with no prior training in that weapon class picking up those weapons for the first time.  Some weapons are easier to use instinctively than others, and that is what this table is supposed to reflect. 

Note that pages 60-63 cover cultural weapon bonuses which will apply to many first time users, and they will also get their Manipulation Skill Category Modifier added on (p59).

On 4/17/2022 at 10:25 PM, JDS said:

My players are exactly the same way which is why I want it easy for them to destroy the. Other, it is: look at the distance to Mount Doom on map, look at pawn shop across the street....'

So far, what I have:
Item's primary aspect is stone or clay: lightning.
Metal: Encase in a block of bronze, bury.
Paper or wood: Burn.
Bones or leather: dissolve in a mix that is 3 parts strong rum, 1 part pure vinegar, and 1 part black gunpowder.

I see what you are going for I think.  Here are some other fun suggestions that up the difficulty a bit...

Boil in a poisonous mercury solution.   Subject it to a high magnetic field.  Disassemble under the light of the dying moon.  Cast it down from the summit of a holy mountain.  Bathe it in running water for X amount of time.  Smash it with another enchanted item.  Crush it in an industrial diamond press (a fringe technology in the 1920s). Feed it to a monster. Execrate it under the dung of a most unclean beast. Use astrology to determine it's most inauspicious moment, and hit it with a hammer.  Bathe it in the Holy Ganges.  Gift it to a well-intentioned klutz.  Leave it in a room with a 3 year old and a screwdriver, after showing the 3 year old how to use a screwdriver.

3 year olds with screwdrivers are the 5th horsemen of the apocalypse.

On 4/17/2022 at 10:58 PM, Godlearner said:

I would say the spell controls the mind.

That doesn't work imo.  Consider, a demoralize spell works regardless of species, because it is spirit magic and works against spirit.  Why then does a Dominate spell only work against a specific species if everyone's spirit is essentially the same?  It must be tied to the actual flesh, and that fits better with the logic of the more materialistic ideas of sorcery imo.

On 4/19/2022 at 12:48 PM, davecake said:

I’m tempted to make some sort of rule specifically to cover those cases. A specific rule that covers the cases of hoplites and legions might be that using a weapon of SR 1 or 2 other than against an opponent directly in front of you requires you to drop out of formation/break the shield wall just as dodging or parrying does? A shortsword then becomes a useful backup weapon, because if the shield wall is breaking but mostly intact, you can still stab the guy who killed the guy next to you without breaking the shield wall further.

I agree with your synopsis here davecake.  

When facing a phalanx, a player is generally being stabbed at by multiple pikes, and this is one of the best ways to concentrate attacks ever devised, and consequently has reoccurred on battlefields for centuries, and were still in use as late as the 19th Century.  

As you correctly suggest, a phalangite can really only parry with their shield.  They definitely won't be allowed to dodge, as that would break formation.  You also correctly point out that the shortsword is an optimal secondary weapon for a phalangite, as if they are forced into close combat, they can use this short stabbing weapon in the same manner as an "extremely cut-down pike" without breaking formation.  The same could not be said for an axe or a slashing sword in the same role, as these weapons require far larger frontage than pikes or short swords.

On 4/19/2022 at 12:48 PM, davecake said:

One issue is the rules more or less conflate very tight rigid phalanx formations with looser 1-2 person deep ‘Viking’ style shield walls without uniform weaponry (which seems a very common Orlanthi battle tactic), in which using larger 1-h seem less of an issue. The rule might still work, though, with the expected result that such shield walls fall apart easily when breached, turning into more of a standard melee - which actually seems pretty fair. 

There are a number of methods for breaking a pike formation.  Of course there are also a number of different potential pike formations, the obvious ones being the line, the "forwards & backwards facing line", the circle (schiltron), the packed square and the hollow square.  The primary purpose of the pike formation was to defeat the charge of mounted forces, but they are very effective against infantry as well due to the fact that one cannot parry multiple pike attacks at once.  

The classic method for cavalry was to use their higher speed to flank the pike line.  More effective however was the skirmisher, who used mobility to stay out of range of the slow moving formation while hitting them with projectiles.  The roman method involved hitting their shields with pilums whose tips bent, rendering them off-balance, and then slipping under the pikes to close.  Fear could sometimes cause a formation to break.  

In the case of the Orlanthi, their tactics generally will not favor their victory against a pike formation.  Their weapons have inferior length and their frontage is too large.  Also, given that the tactics of the Orlanthi generally amount to a charge, they have problems.  The obvious answer is to have the Orlanthi hit either one or both flanks, preferably from the front and rear, and "unzip" the line.  This can be further supported by spells such as telekinesis or sylphs that can allow access to the 3rd Dimension.  A shield wall formation might be able to close with a phalanx, but it isn't a danger until it is up close, and it can be pushed away by pikes without much ability to counter-attack.  It is also possible that a "suicide commando" TK drop into proximity of the phalanx's banner/standard to capture it might also collapse the formation, but that is a risky proposition, as you can point pikes into the air pretty easily.  Of course the best method is always surprise attack; hit them when they aren't in formation.

Honestly, my players were such degenerates that they never tried to destroy any magic items, instead favoring figuring out how to exploit them for $$$.

My personal favorite schtick is wearable items that you can't take off.  I had one player who put on a familiar summoning ring that couldn't be taken off, but he figured out how, using a micro-gate, and then on his next character he put on the Pallid Mask AND read the King in Yellow.  The mask doesn't come off either, and sort of welds to one's skin.

I think any item destruction needs to be a scenario in itself, with attendant dangers.  On the other hand I think it is wiser to take the eagles to Mt Doom with the ring.

Simply put, there aren't real advantages for wearing light armor and using light weapons.  The idea that light armor is less constricting and allows freer movement is probably true, but dodging is far harder than most RPGs suggest.  The advantages for light armor are the price point, and the lower encumbrance.  As for using shortswords, they simply don't hit as hard as larger weapons, and that isn't going to change.  Presently there are no rules for semi-grappling combat in RQG, so the value of a shorter weapon for very-up-close-and-personal combat, where characters are under the guard of longer weapons do not apply.  This is fair, as irl combat is quick, and the longer weapon will strike first.  If the longer weapon misses, then the shorter weapon has its chance and the owner of the longer weapon does their best to fend, parry or withdraw to a better range. 

There is a reason that most ancient armies fielded massed spears and heavy armor.  They work so much better than the lighter shorter gear.  Light and short might be fine for a criminal who needs concealability, or a martial artist style individual fighter, but their best method for dealing with heavily armored people with long weapons is to run away, hide, and/or ambush.  Another option is to use a missile weapon in combination with the light combination.

16 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Sure, but would that even work? Let's say you have a spirit in a dog and a sorcerer casts a Dominate Dog and overcomes the spirit's power. is the spirit cast out? Is the dog controlled and stull possessed, or does the spell fail because it's the wrong species?

IMO the spell controls the flesh of the dog.  This doesn't throw out the spirit, but if the spell overcame the spirit's POW then the spell controls the dog, not the spirit.  In fact the spirit likely becomes passive, and the dog may even be able to reassert control of its body.

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It wasn't meant in a mean way. I love that thread and everything in it. It was meant as a compliment.

Congrats on the rudest compliment I have received in months 😁

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

There's a thread for things like that.

So because I disagree with you, my theory must be dumb?  How nice of you.

On 4/13/2022 at 12:06 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

are they able to transform themselves because they are "people" by nature

or because they worship a goddess giving some transformation abilities

Now this is the nub of the issue really isn't it?  Clearly a person who doesn't worship the appropriate deity can't perform transformation magic unless they are "cursed".  The larger question becomes whether transformation is intrinsic to the man rune.

22 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

All good, but also note the Fiwan creation myths in Revealed Mythologies. In the beginning there were sixteen Fiwan peoples, and “they could take the shape of humans or animals” or “were both people and animals at the same time”. Several of the "founding" Fiwan peoples listed in that source are specific Hsunchen analogues: lion, frog, fish eagle, sun fish, eland, vulture, turtle, milk antelope, anaconda and fire wren; those are all Fiwan/Hsunchen peoples described in Guide to Glorantha. Two of the other original Fiwan (rhinoceros and otter) may have different analogues in later Gloranthan ages (Rascullu and the otters of Maniria). Revealed Mythologies even goes as far as to tell us that “the migrated Fiwan are the Genertelan Hsunchen”.

So there are multiple "ideas" of the Hsunchen: the Fiwan myths from Pamaltela, the descent of the Hsunchen from Korgatsu in Kralorela, and the labelling by the Brithini of other humans as being in their eyes sub-human Hykimi in the West.

All this is another section in the Book of Hsunchen, of course 😄.

Good call.  I had forgotten that Revealed Mythologies exists. SMH.😄

On 4/13/2022 at 6:38 AM, PhilHibbs said:

"Atom" just means "irreducible component". Same thing. So if the runes are the irreducible components, then they are the atoms.

I think the Outer Atomic Explorers found a universe like our own that is constructed of atoms not runes, and were promptly engaged in an isekai scenario they couldn't escape from.  After all, their magic likely didn't work in the atom universe as it was based on different principles.  Also, why specifically use the word atom when you should say Rune?  Alleged atomic indestructibility aside (we have never found an atom irl based on that definition), they aren't called  the Outer Runic Explorers.

On 4/12/2022 at 10:35 PM, Godlearner said:

No, no, no. Just because there is no more Closing, does not mean that the Open Seas Ritual is not needed. Think about it, who would want to test their ship on such a thing when performing the ritual covers you anyway. 

The Closing is still in effect, it is just punctuated by the rising of the Boat Planet.

23 hours ago, soltakss said:

Not of you cast Open Seas first, or if the Boat Planet has risen.

I have come across GMs with this kind of attitude and it is so frustrating.

Yes, the Closing is in abeyance if the boat planet is risen. Do you know what part of its cycle it is in now?  Check Celestial Lore.

On 4/13/2022 at 3:13 AM, Godlearner said:

I would disagree. The Curse is not the hostile, it is what is summoned by it which is. Path Watch would not to the Closing Curse (at least in my opinion) 

The God Learners were aware the curse existed but never knew what form it would take, and that is why they could never form effective brute force countermeasures.  To say a curse isn't hostile is like insisting a lethal tumor is benign.

On 4/13/2022 at 3:15 AM, Godlearner said:

Hmm, sailor and superstition ...... its like bread and butter, ice cream and apple pie, military and marching music.

Agreed, but the thing about superstition is that someone always proves it is BS and everyone feels foolish except for the ultra conservative who promptly turn it into dogma and/or call it a tradition rather than admit their mistake.  Either there is or isn't a curse, and it only requires a divination spell to find out.

1 hour ago, JDS said:

Flamethrowers are still legal. But not very useful as weapons, IME. I've got one.

Flamethrowers are primarily for use against mythos creatures.  On the other hand, most people find flamethrowers highly intimidating, and fire is a grisly way to die as opposed to a nice clean bullet.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

No, no, no. Just because there is no more Closing, does not mean that the Open Seas Ritual is not needed. Think about it, who would want to test their ship on such a thing when performing the ritual covers you anyway. 

The situation you are describing... That's called superstition. Path Watch, if used in the way you suggested earlier, would literally show whether or not there was a great hostile spell on the sea and thus put the Dormal cult out of business by proving that there was no Closing anymore... Or perhaps the Closing didn't end with the rise of the Boat Planet, it was just bypassed more effectively?  You are playing fast and loose with cult ecology here GL.

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I know the words are not exactly right but it will explain my question : hunshen are half men half beasts

Is there any dark-hsunshen (or other word) tribes : half trolls half beasts ? I m not talking about some individual who gained  this situation (or were cursed) but people, like rathori, etc..  or are human the only - type for hunshen ?  by the way, I noticed somewhere (or I believe) than brithini consider themselves as the true humans. Does that mean that they say that all the other human people are descendent of hunshen ?

I like and agree with JRE on this point.  I think that Hsunchen is a term reserved for human tribes of shamanic worshippers who follow the Hykim and Mikyh traditions.  The term Hsunchen sounds like is is Kralori in origin, and we know that the Kralori worship using draconic mysticism and that H&M are dragons.  On the other hand, there are plenty of Hsunchen in the far West also.  Troll worship of Gorakiki and Aranea is based around priests not shamans, and that likely matters.  As to the Brithini, they were always looking for reasons not to be like other people.  I suspect that the idea of Hsunchen is an import of the Godlearners from Kralori, in much the same way that Shaman is an imported word into English via anthropology, and is only used to describe the human totemic tradition.  That being said, we know there is no true monomyth and everything is far more blurry than most Gloranthan academics would want to admit.

On 2/3/2021 at 6:45 PM, soltakss said:

It depends on the HeroQuest. Biturian Varosh was forced to play Orlanth in the Three Blows of Anger HeroQuest, even though he was not a worshipper of Orlanth.

You are quite correct...  The choice was deliberate.  The Yelmalios wanted a victim, not a real Orlanthi.