Nevermet

Last post for Kaxtorplose for a while.

While I like the idea of taking brutalism to be the expression of the more fantastical elements of Kaxtorplose, my current visual inspiration for Kaxtorplose in a more historical form is the bronze age Nuragic civilization, especially  the ruins of Su Nuraxi: 

It's interesting, because I think we can talk about the narrative tropes of the game world since the Dawn, and both we and the inhabitants of Glorantha can talk about the mythemes of GodTime.  For example, I feel confident in saying that since time began, the world of Glorantha tends to associate universal ideals with imperial projects.  Nysalor, the EWF, the Godlearners, the Lunars... As a setting, I think Glorantha has some concerns about the hubris of universal and imperial projects baked into it.

Before time, I think a common narrative arc of various mythologies is a movement of the world from simplicity to complication (more peoples, more difference, more disagreements, etc).  I feel confident in saying that's in Pelorian myth, Orlanthi myth, and Malkioni myth.  Surviving the darkness required forging a new balance that acknowledge more difference than what could have existed in the Green or Golden Ages.

Regarding my time zone, I'm in GMT-6 (Alberta, Canada).

I also wasn't as detailed as I should have been in the first post.  I won't have time for a synchronous game for 3-4 weeks.  PbP, I could do sooner.

Thanks for pointing out Roll20.

38 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

That lovely (many of) allows us free license to place Helerings wherever we wish, I would say.  I would have them scattered along the Esrolian and Manirian coasts IMG.

Oh, that's absolutely a viable choice, I completely agree!  I mean, I like Maniria.  To like Maniria is to like the "Glorantha of the Gaps" 😉 

And even after assimilation into other groups, there's a question of how much their mythology & magic continue to matter.  I'd definitely argue that Heler is more important figure in Maniria than Heortland, for example.  I would also love to know the role of Heler (or their devotees) in the events leading up to the sinking of Erenplose.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

However, they're getting desperate: now that most buildings have been equipped, they need *something* to drive up the maintenance costs of their clients, and they may be looking at *actually* getting Giants to come this way... unless they can find another threat to solve with roof-related counter measures. There's a lot of flying creatures in the mountains, after all, and any of them could warrant adding other differently sized spikes on everybody's roofs...

I love the (possibly comedic) adventure ideas that come from this.

8 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I really like all the blue people in the region you are drawing together here. They're often lumped in with "Helerites" but it's strange if this turned out to be the only part of the world where a separate Heler nation survived. Given the god's nature I'd think he'd be everywhere moist, in which case "Heler" may be an exonym perpetuated by people who knew Heler but not Artmal until it was too late to clear up the confusion..

A small PS - As far as I can tell, there is no distinct Helering civilization anywhere (or at least not in Maniria) at the Dawn.  IMG, the Entruli absorbed the Helerings when Heler swore loyalty to Orlanth at Storm Mountain.  That said, I really need to read some more Stafford Library to work out the mythology here.

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

It is good when the nieces win. In the great chain of being I suspect you defeat me, they defeat you, my cat defeats them.

And the cycle of chao- er, life, continues.

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

The Archaic Source in question is quoted here . . . the "wandering tribes" may not be the zaranistangi but clearly share a mighty close lineage. The problem for sages is of course that there are no exoteric historical records of this happening yet, which means that the timeline extends into a Western Hero Wars period or is a dim projection from a Storm Age cultural origin myth. Either outcome can be exciting.

I definitely agree that the Zaranistangi were a Wandering Tribe.  They had teh Red Sword, lost it to the Seshnegi, and their king was eventually killed in 805.  While the Godlearners thought they had killed all the Lopers, some managed to escape (GtG II: 429).  Though none returned to Teshnos, it appears they may have joined a pre-existing group of Blues in souther Herilia (GtG I: 351), or perhaps founded that culture.  In Blood over Gold, those Blue Moon worshippers survived the Flood.  There is no mention in the Guide.

One bubble I should burst: As written, Erenplose, also known as Porlufta, was a city of Entruli origins that angered the the Sea Gods, but saved by a Kolati.

Given that the Guide explicitly talks about Aamor (P. 414), I would say this is future events:

Quote

Aamor: The son of Dandomal, the rebellious count
of Dangim, Aamor is the rightful ruler of that land.
When the rest of his family was killed by his usurping
uncle Dagram at King Guilmarn’s behest, Aamor
managed to escape to Fornoar, where he became a
master of both wizardry and swordsmanship. Aamor
now searches for the lost island of Brithos, seeking
allies for his vengeance against the Seshnegi.

So, Aamor, rightful ruler of Dangim, has fled Sheshnela, and is currently looking for Brithos, hope they will ally with him against the Sheshnegi.  Also, that post's chronology hurts my head, and I'm unsure why.  I'll start with the last 3 paragraphs:  

1. Stolen by Vrimaki (Wind Children?) who were allied with Mostali (Diamond Mountain?  Maybe)
2. The Hykimi steal it from the Vrimaki
3. Vealil's Wandering Tribe steals with from the Hykimi
4. Vealil and his wandering tribe settle where they acquired the sword
5. The Opening Occurs
6. Vealil uses the sword to protect his land from "Slontonian Pirates" (No idea who this is... Wolf Pirates?)
7. Aamor steals the sword from Vealil
8. Aamor and his Teshni people get into a conflict in Ralios with Artmali, Tamali, & Jonati.  [This 1 sentence could be a thread in itself, because it is incredibly unclear to me who these group are]
9. Aamor loses to The Nagi who invade Teshnos
10. Aamor leads a mass migration across Genertela
11. Aamor resolves it, give Artmali the sword, and they now have a new homeland, assumedly in Ralios.

That's.... trippy.  Especially because we know the Red Sword is currently in the Kingdom of War in Fronela (GtG: 211)

I... do not know how all that fits together.

Will read Jeff's post tonight.  No doubt I will have thoughts and/or feelings 😉 

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This thread is living up to its potential!

I need a place to hide the legacy of the artmalite diaspora that ends up in Ralios in archaic texts. Safelster is theoretically interesting but already a little crowded and far from tidal / blue moon resonances. Slontos, on the other hand, has the advantage of geological upheaval wiping out a lot of records while preserving others for Hero Wars excavation.

In this scenario they probably have the Red Sword in there.

First, could you tell me about the archaic texts?  This isn't one of those passive aggressive "Citation please" things; I just don't remember what they are 🙂

Second, if I must give a serious opinion about Kaxtorplose & the zaranistangi, Kaxtorplose was probably a major opposing force to their raiding activity.  There may be some mixing, though, a few turncoats or thralls that get absorbed into the population.   At the same time, anything is possible, though I reserve the right to be an internet tough guy if you upset me.  😉 (I am, of course kidding.  my 6 year old nieces can annihilate me)

IIRC, the only mentions of the Blue Moon in the 3rd Age are some isolated villages in the Wenelian Isles.  However, if there is another extant population of Blues with secrets, I'm going to say the Aulorings of Caratan.  Their history is very undefined save that (1) much of their history dates back to fleeing Gualal after the flood, and (2) they worship the God of Floods, which sounds like the son of Rain (Heler) and Tides (Annilla) to me.  Also, the idea that the Red Sword isn't just in Maniria, but in CARATAN is amusing to me.

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Kaxterplose is where the surviving Western Artmalites / zaranistangi retreated.

Fight me.

( 😜)

I began to worry I was running out of Manirian rants, but looking at my to do list for future Scratchpads, that is not the case:

1. Ramalia & the Mraloti
2. Entru and Maniria Before the Dawn
3. Caratan
4. Handra
5. The Trader Princes: Now vs. their height before the Opening
6. The Caladrans
7. Campaign & adventure hooks
8. And... though I dread it.... the legacy of the Zaranistangi and the Blue Moon in Maniria

5 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Tagging this because you've given me that most dreadful gift, worse than any dumb theory: a long-range project. Watch the skies!

Awesome 🙂

Is anyone planning or recruiting any online games?  While I have a decent amount of experience with the Heroquest / Questworld rules, I still haven't played RQG.

More on Second Age Kaxtorplose

First, a timeline:

Quote

• 740: The Autarchy in Ralios is destroyed. (GtG: 374)
• 740: Beginning of the Clanking City in God Forgot (GtG: 236)
• 758: Middle Sea Aliance joins the war against the Lopers (GtG: 352)
  • This is Post-Abiding Book, post-"Real Reassessment" Middle Sea Empire (MSE: 19)
  • This is 3 years into the reign of Orvansfal (MSE: 20)
  • Immanent Mastery School takes off (MSE: 20)
• 780: Scholar Riots against the Malkioni in Nochet (GtG: 236)
• 795 - 842: Middle Sea wars with Esrolia
• 800: Davaka the Dealer begins the GL practice of forcibly taking over pagan sacred sites for research (MSE: 44)
• 805: Lopers fully defeated, Slontos fully absorbed into the Middle Sea Empire (GtG: 352)
• 813: "Valastos with Seven Pens issues Warnings about Spirit Plane Ecology" (MSE: 39)
• 813: Zistorites founded (MSE: 48)
• Circa 815: Zistorites make ornithopters based on the Iron vrok (MSE: 48)
• 818: The Hurricane Year (MSE 23)
• 821: 5th Ecclesiastical Council (MSE: 23)
  • Brithos sinks a massive fleet
• 823: The Reformed Sorcerers Alliance (THE Godlearners) support Suilmant as Emperor (MSE: 23)
• 842: Krajlki War, failed invasion of the Shadowlands (MSE: 24)
  • Leads to the rise of the Villbaine of Wesluk as the hereditary ruler of a centrally controlled Slontos (GtG: 351)
• 845: Founding of the God Learner Collective (MSE: 24)
• 849: Goddess Switch (GtG: 352)
• 850: Heroquesters begin bringing unique items back from heroquests (MSE: 43)
• circa 860: Zistorism spreads (MSE: 25)
• circa 890: Slag Movement tries to weaponize earth against Krjalki (MSE: 890)
• Circa 905: Consquering of Ralios (MSE: 27)
• 907: 2-year Winter (GtG: 237)
• 917: Fall of Clanking CIty (MSE: 27)
• 925: Ice Summer of Ralios 9MSE: 28)
• Circa 934: The Book of Secrets leaves Jrustela for Slontos, ending at the Trickster College of Thanor (MSE: 46)
• 935: The Closing (GtG: 352)
  • Increasing independence of Slontos from Seshnela due to difficulty getting there (MSE: 28)
• Late 900s: Secrets Riots break out as various "heretics" demand the Book of Secrets is opened to save the people (MSE: 46)
• Circa 950: Makanists vs. Malkioneranists (MSE: 29)
• Circa 990: Archduke of Slontos considered by political elite of Slontos to be the "de facto" Emperor of Land & Sea "after the wizards had determined that the Seshnelan dynasty had abdicated the title (MSE: 46)
• Circa 1000: Ralios unites against MSE Rule (MSE: 30)
• Early 1000s: Presence of the Book of Secrets is sufficient to end the Ramalian Peasant Rebellion, the Siege of Eenlor, and defend Jadnor (MSE: 46)
• Circa 1000: Yomili creates old-style Makanist New Church of the Book with Emperor's support (MSE: 31)
• 1049: The Reversal of God World, Spirit Plane, & Hero Planes (MSE: 45)
• 1040: Archduke of Slontos, against wishes of his Bishops - orders the Book of Secrets is opened
• 1050: "The Goddess of Slontos rolled over." (GtG: 352) / Devastation of the Vent (GtG: 237)
  • Alternative: Book of Secrets is opened after 10 years, seen to be empty, and then the earthquake begins

It seems we can break Slontos' experience with the Middle Sea Alliance & Empire Second Age history into 4 phases:

1. The Loper Wars with the Middle Sea Alliance (758-805)
2. Early Archduchy (805 - 850) 
3. "Godlearner" Archduchy (850 - 935)
4. Decline of the Archduchy (935 - 1050)

Middle Sea Alliance Period

I would argue Kaxtorplose was at its most influential during the Loper Wars, before Slontos was fully absorbed into the Middle Sea Empire.  It was a long standing polity that was well defended.  The Lopers may have attacked trade to and from Kaxtorplose, but I feel they would have preferred to attack cities that did not have divine walls.  

Early Archudchy Period

Kaxtorplose, with its Ylream-like history, would not have gotten along with the various Godlearner sects.  While bringing Slontos into the Middle Sea Empire and the eradication of the Lopers in Slontos coincides with the rise of the Emanationists, it seems that Slontos was primarily a playground for the Reconstructionists and Zistorites.  The defeat of the Lopers comes just before the founding of the Zistorites, who also were instrumental in the attacks on the Esrolia & EEWF. 

Godlearner Period

During this span, Slontos sees the Goddess Switch, the founding of the Trickster College, and the Book of Secrets was taken to Slontos rather than Seshnela.  As I think about it more, Kaxtorplose was likely mined for arcana knowledge constantly, with any traditionalists who resisted such efforts bluntly removed, possibly while being accused of various heresies (Stygianism and Inflamerism come to mind as possibilities).

There was likely a triumphalist attitude throughout this period, until the fall of Zistorela in 917.  That would have been demoralizing for the dominant ideologies of Slontos.  And then 20 years later, the Closing comes to Slontos.

Decline of the Archduchy

Its clear that things just get uglier and weirder for a century until Slontos sinks.  Riots, rebellions, heresies... things are falling apart.  IMG the Archduchy at this point is increasingly militaristic and brutal.  I find it interesting that during this Period, the Archduke is viewed as the heir to the Emperor of Land and Sea.  The rulers of Slontos did not experience regret the same way the rulers of Seshnela did.

I also find it interesting that there are both riots by people who want the Book of Secrets to be used, and then evidence that the Book of Secrets is used.  Also, regarding the story of the Book of Secrets in MSE, I suspect the Book of Secrets really did exist.  However, a great deal of that story is allegorical, making the Book of Secrets a physical symbol of the hubris of the Godlearners.  The story culminates with the Book being used to save Slontos, only to be revealed as "form without substance", leading to the Flood of Slontos and the Devastation of the Vent.  Trying to use Godlearner sorcery after the Great Reversal of the planes was apparently a bad, bad idea.

During this period, I suspect that Kaxtorplose became a hotbed of opposition to the religion of Malkioneranism.  The city-Temple of Kaxtorplose, with its history and library, would have been a natural rallying point for non-Godlearner Malkioni religion.

This post was mostly vanity, an excuse for me to construct the Slontan timeline.  It helps me appreciate just how broken Godlearner ideology became, and Slontos paid for it dearly.  But the Temple-City of Kaxtor, Earthson and Builder, managed to survive.  

Wanna write a Calandraland book for Jonstown? 😈

3 minutes ago, Leingod said:

I mean, if the Greeks could accept that the Arcadians worshiped Zeus as a god of lycanthropy as legit, I'm sure each of them would just look and the other and go, "Weird, but you do you, I guess."

Yep.

Confusion, and whether there is solidarity or hostility will depend on context

1 hour ago, Ironwall said:

personally id choose eithir Brambleberry hills, Tamlane hills or the east bush range, but id probelly allow the player to hose from amongst the list

 

Makes sense 

So which appeals most to you?

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

The Dragonnewt wilds are an excellent idea.  Lush, fertile, uninhabited, and the weird Dragonnewts ignoring human settlers. 

Except every so often the Dragonnewts inexplicably decide to eradicate the humans.  It's called Huntland.

The subject of the following thread:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/13011-two-questions-about-dragonewts/?do=findComment&comment=202121

 

Pelorians trying to make sense of Newts would be fun.

....well.... OOC fun.  IC, it'd probably be terrifying

On 3/16/2021 at 7:44 AM, kr0p0s said:

3. It is the responsibility of mortals to make a world they can live in. This creed was formed in the early Dawn Ages when humans were weak and few. Its focus is always towards humans, their survival and later their dominance, rather than on co-existence or cooperation with the rest of the cosmos.

This is a very random point, and I'm not making a claim that they are historically related, but this reminds me strongly of the Velortinian Principle in Pelandan philosophy as found in the Entekosiad: "Humans are responsible for the world, even if/though the gods are not."

45 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

EDIT: I realize that Caladralanders are probably outliers, but I wonder whether there is more similarity between them and mainstream Orlanthi, or whether mainstream Orlanthi are more similar to Solar Pelorians in their view of Lodril (keeping in mind that there are lots of Pelorian Orlanthi)

That's my understanding, based on The Guide.  Calandrans are basically Orlanthi in terms of culture & general religion who view their patron deity as Veskarthen

As a guess, the weirdness is very much experienced by worshippers.  I can't imagine devotees of Turos, Lodril, and Keskarthan would all get along, even if they acknowledge they all worship the same god with a relatively consistent personality.  But the mythology and stories they all tell are so different.  It's not that they're necessarily incompatible, but it's like finding out your god has a double life.

(I'm not terribly surprised Lodril is a bit of a two-timer, but hey...)

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

We may have a name - Drorgalar Orlanthsson. Harand Boardick's wife Urgkronika was his daughter. (King of Sartar p.63)

 

It never occurred to me to equate Entru with Drorgalar, but that could work!

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Helerings sound like a later arrival than the original migration of Entru and Ketha, which I place as significantly before the Flood. (Harand and the Lawstaff story are significantly after the Flood. It looks like the ancestors of Harand and later Aram ya Udram returned eastward after those lands had been recovered from the Sea covering parts of Halikiv, Arstola, and apparently the lands just east of Skanthiland (unless the Skanthi had to evacuate until the sea had been overcome).

I completely agree with this.  I'm not sure, but I think that IMG, Aram is descended from the son Harand gave to the Uz.

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

I was about to ask you since when there were Malkioni in Kaxtorplose - after all the Archduchy of Slontos was formed only after the start of the Return to Rightness Crusade. Missing Lands mentions the inclusion of the Archduchy into the Middle Sea Empire.

That's a good question that I don't think the texts fully answer. Middle Sea Empire states that the fact there is an Archduke of Slontos suggests there were Malkioni Talars in Slontos before its incorporation into the MSE.

IMG, when Veakmal re-conquered the Herlaning Kingdoms, he brought both western sorcery and "Serpent King Hrestolism," something that would be rather compatible a Earth demigod born during time such as Kaxtor. I currently suspect that the Olodo were Slontans fleeing the Gbaji Wars, and the Waertagi were partly willing to help because the Olodo were at least somewhat "Western".

I'm honestly unsure if all this holds water, but it is where I currently am.

And eyebrows!

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I wonder if Maniria overlapped with mythical Envorela. In that case, the same wood-working, Earth-centric gods (though not necessary Earth gods themselves, elemntally) that we find among the Vingkotlings may have had some influences there: Durev, Orane, Orstan, (Barntar?) etc. The Durevings did have a prior existance as an independent people prior to being assimilated into the Vingkotling confederation, or so we are led to believe at least. There's perhaps something to be said for an interaction between the Dureving Mini-Pantheon and the Aldryami as well. (Durev was carved from wood and magically turned alive by his woodcarver father, amongst other things). Nevermind the whole Mraloti complex tied into all of this and the native Cthonic/Earth powers.

Also there are the Diroti, who arrived after the Flooding of Envorela, iirc, and so would have added something, but you've probably taken that into account already. It would be interesting to see if there's some interplay here with the myth of Heler and Aroka. Sovereign Heler raided the Air and such. The Diroti were Air gods who raided by boat. There's a weird parallel/contrast there, I don't know. It just intuitively feels like they would've interacted at some point, but maybe I'm seeing ties where there are none. 

The two above are things Maniria would at least partially share with Kethaeal/Kerofinela, though, and it would probably be hard to distinguish exactly what were native beliefs at the Dawn (or pre-Dawn mythic events, same difference) and what were later Lightbringer imports.

EDIT: Actually, you might've considered all of this already. I tend to forget which talking points we've already nailed once topics go on for a few weeks, apologies if I just brought up irrelevant stuff!

I have not touched mythology much at all yet, because frankly, there is a daunting amount of information.  

My current thesis, which I have not elaborated at all, let alone post here, is that Entrulings were a group of Orlanthi lead by a very different son of Orlanth than Vingkot. And here we go

• Entrulings were at least 3 groups:
  • People who followed Entru & Ketha west
  • Former Hsunchen,
    • Explains Manirian tendency to have individual animal associations
    • I strongly suspect that the Enrtulings / Harandings tell a very different 
  • Remnants of the Helerings after Heler was devoured. 
    • The single most important Temple to Heler in Genertela is in Maniria, but there was never a "Helering" people since the Dawn
  • I could believe Durevings too, but I haven't explored that
• Entrulings built fewer fortresses than, say, the Esrolians
  • They travelled light, hid from the forces of Chaos, and looked for allies where they could.  
    • Hooafting somehow managed to make a network of secret campsites that Chaos could not find.
  • I want to say that Crazy Uncle Kolat was much more relevant in Maniria than in Esrolian & Hoertling lands, but I am unsure how justifiable this is.
• Elder Races
  • The Aldryami had a complicated relationship with the humans, but through Ketha deals could be reached.
  • I have been working off the assumption there was no Trolls in Maniria at the Dawn
  • As per the Dragonewt thread, I've become persuaded there was probably an ancient nest in Ryzel that the 1st Age Newts wanted to reconnect with and awaken.

...that's all I'm firm about, which reallyisn't much, so, yeah... open the mythical floodgates 😉

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If you want additional social framework for changing castes, there is always adoption. Including the adoption of adults. Changes lineage, legal status, etc. It happens in the real world, so it is not too fanciful. 

Good idea, thanks 🙂

The political snake pit of finding families willing to adopt an up-and-coming Kaxtori must be wilder, and worse, bribing a family to take a loser who needs to be kept away from responsibilities.

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I am a little bit wary of overexaggerating the isolationism of Kaxtorplose (or any place, rather) too much. While it is technically possible for them to remain isolated in all regards for centuries, it just seems very probable that some people, particularly Dronars, would have intermarried with surrounding Orlanthi by now. Even if it was just a slight trickle, over decades and centuries that amounts to some interethnic mobility. It's not a huge sticking point, but it bears thinking about. I'm sure the Zzaburi and Talari fret over it, though, or perhaps try and obfuscate it as much as possible.

I should definitely be more careful about my language.

Even if Kaxtorplose isn't xenophobic, they're not as... aspirationally cosmopolitan as the Trader Prince cities were before Dormal, or Handra and Fay Jee are now.  I'm sure that Kaxtorplose is perfectly happy to take on trade goods, and they're very happy to welcome pilgrims, but, well.... they have their ways of doing things.