Nevermet

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If we take the Dwarfs by their word, then Mostal is not so much a conscious entity, an anthropomorph, as it is the gestalt world-system of the cosmos. So what does that leave us with? 

 

If true, then that means a repaired World Machine means Glorantha becomes ... Well, I doubt it would sustain human life as we understand it.

It also means that stealing from Mostal means breaking the world machine a little bit, moving bits where they don't belong, etc.

As for the relationship between the Malkioni and the Mostali, I don't have time to re-read Revealed Mythologies for a few days.

Also, if I remember the newer material on Malkion that Jeff has shared, it implies Malkion came later than Zzabur or Mostal

10 minutes ago, aumshantih said:

I can't agree with this more.    This is a fantastic thread, and would have been helpful when I was running my game in Fronela.

One of my favourite things about the Guide is that every chapter has a "The Hero Wars Begin" sidebar.  Even if (especially because?) they are rarely fleshed out, it creates a great base for campaigns set anywhere in Glorantha.

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

Oh yeah. I suspect a lot of Pelorian and Pelandan gods ended up like that.

Yeah, even if Turos and Lodril were viewed as different gods in the 1st Age, they're the same guy now.

And so on.

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was apparently thinking of Rakenveg.

*Googles* Oh, yeah.....

I'm willing to bet the difference between Rakenveg and Venegdel in the eyes of 3rd Age Pelorians is the difference between Mercury & Hermes.

But yeah, Dara Happa as a culture is much more "anti-ruckus" than the Orlanthi in their worldview.  For the Orlanthi, there's a place for tricksters, just as violence is always an option.  The DH, however, would be obsessed with a toxic rhetoric of purity (if I may put it in modern terms) that would just look silly to most 3rd Age Heortlings.  

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't there a Dara Happan hare/rabbit god who is a trickster? Never heard of a sanctioned cult for it, though, but then that doesn't mean much. 

Then there is of course Tunoral of Vanch, the raccoon thief good, effectively a trickster. But Vanch is outside Dara Happa.

I know there's VenegDel the Burning Hare in Pelanda.  I could believe Lodrili in the Dara Happa countryside who live down to all the negative stereotypes about the Lodrili worship it / propitiate it.

Is there a single best place to go for a timeline of the 3rd Age, or at least since circa 1600 ST?

On 4/16/2021 at 12:31 PM, Joerg said:

No idea whether Vadrus recognized his old lay when he and the Helerings may have gotten into some ruffles.

IMG, they recognized each other, producing immediate hostility, but this is part of a larger "why doesn't it snow in Maniria" rant I have.

Also, regarding Lodril, IIRC, according to some Fronelan myths, he stole the secret of iron from the Mostali.  I wonder if stealing the secret of iron means Lodril learned sorcery.

(I assume this lead to the creation of the Third Eye Blue Kingdom, but that's conjecture)

(Also, seriously, Lava Boy really got around).

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

My dumb theory is that Lunars see the Law Rune with Malkion as its base, Hrestol as it's right side and the Red Goddess as it's left side, supported by Malkion and Hrestol.

That's a good dumb theory.

I think mine is coming from the way I've been thinking of the Godlearners being dismissive of personality to the point of disrespect (effectively being anti-Arkati wizards)

Also... is it a new dumb theory that the 3 points of the Law Rune are Mostal, Zzabur, and Malkion?  Or is that old, and I forget where I read it?

Either way, they're an interesting triad for sorcery: Material, Energy, & Personality.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

* Belintar was very interested in the multiplication of mountains, maybe because he had access to people who remembered / respected Lodril's mountain or something they called a "Spike." Volcano magic is a phase of this: deep magic of Caladra waiting to be investigated.

 

Do you have a cite for this?  I'm trying to get a better handle on the Holy Country.

As for everything else... I feel bad because I don't have anything to add, but thanks for this thread.

29 minutes ago, davecake said:

I think almost all of the specific claims theory are wrong, but plausibly things that idiot God Learners might have believed, and thus the theory as a whole plausible.

One of the things that is truly liberating when writing up setting info for Glorantha is that one gets to replace "So what ACTUALLY happened?" with the easier and more fun, "What did this specific culture think happened?"

Dumb theory:

Slontos sank because the Godlearners tried to reach Erenplose / Porlufta, and failed miserably.

This is a dumb theory because it is waaaaaay out on a limb.

1. Seshnela just got shatered by purple giants. 
   • The Archduke of Slontos was kinda desperate, and he was hoping a city that survived the anger of the Sea Gods could help them
2. I suggest illumination was necessary to enter Erenplose.
   • Getting to Erenplose appears to be absurdly difficult, and the last person who did it was the Palangio the Iron Vrok. 
3. However, the GLs were not really big on illumination
   • They wanted / needed a purely materialistic / sorcerous solution.
4. Enter the Zistorites and the Order of Purification, which claimed to have discovered the "purification rune"
   • Chaos, argued somebody, was imbalanced and impure disorder.  Or, put another way, purified chaos was disorder.  
   • Given this argument, then forms of magic that involved chaos (like illumination) could be reorganized as disorder, which could be manipulated in clean, sorcerous ways without worrying about illumination
5. The purpose of the Trickster College of Thanor was to study disorder
   • If they could prove that disorder was purified chaos, then they could organize illumination within their systematic proofs, material analysis of forces, and logic.
6. The Archduke, his wizards, and the faculty of the Trickster College began their ritual disorder sorcery to contact / invade Erenplose to seek its help / take its secrets.
   
    

• The result: Eurmal laughed, and freed the land goddesses.

11 hours ago, EricW said:

I think there is a strong case illumination prevents excommunication, so if someone incurs the displeasure of the local religious leaders yet retains their magic, expect the accusations to fly, at least in private.

As for setting up a new temple in defiance of authorities, that would likely draw a severe reaction. During the first age illuminates plundered gods by setting up false temples, so a suspected illuminate outcast setting up a temple in defiance of religious leaders could be seen an attack on the faith by degenerate chaos worshippers.

IMG, I think I would define excommunication* in terms of being denounced by religious authorities, and as such, I don't think illumination prevents it for many religions or cults, save those that recognize illumination as a good thing, and whose leadership feels compelled to follow their own rules.

Illumination would, however, prevent supernatural reprisals against a character who is excommunicated, which in most cases would probably either make them look even more terrifyingly wrong, or perhaps delegitimize the religious leader who ostracized them in some cases.

* All this acknowledging that excommunicate, as a word, has a lot of Roman Catholic connotations that don't fit Glorantha well, but I realize that's tangential to your point.

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

That's super hot stuff. Going to look for a lost figure behind Spol now, YarGan YarGar, once the wellspring of "a large pocket of worship in Peloria" and ultimately Fronela. First he lost his Truth and then he lost his realm (a kind of northern holy country), becoming one of those lost gods who vanished at Castle Blue. The Xentha / Xemela linguistic link is close to a simple coincidence.

Trying to unpack all this always risks the violation of Brooke's Law* stated above: "life is too short to parse the Entekosiad again".

I spent a summer trying to wrap my head around the mythology of Spol.  I made some headway, but... wow.

* Surely, he has more than 1 law about Glorantha, but that's the one relevant here 😉

7 hours ago, Eff said:

Monster Man is just straight-up Lodril in a spooky skeleton man costume.

This gets weird with the Entekosiad*, where Derdromus (probably Monster Man) imprisons Turos (probably Lodril), and/or Turos unleashes Derdromus on the world.  Of course, the Big E being what it is, it's still entirely possible Monster Man is Lodril in a skeleton costume.

* Of course, everything gets odd with that

I don't have much to add, but I like the Red Moon / God-King parallels & tensions.  Another layer of that comparison is that both try to replace something else of mythical / elemental significance: The Moon tries to take over the Middle Air, and Belintar kills the OOO.

Sweet

12 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Aldryami are the root cause

Do you know where I got that idea from?  Cuz I have no idea now. 😵

Just wanted to say I'm loving this thread; sorry I don't have much to add

Another question this reminds me of: When and how was Arkat illuminated?  I vaguely remember something about it maybe involving the Aldryami, but I have no idea, and I may be inventing that by accident.

Thanks for the responses!

I still don't have  a clue what is going to happen, but I have a lot more to chew on.

11 hours ago, Snugz said:

Thread I was thinking of, with lots more "who's Arkat?" ideas: 

I had forgotten that thread - thanks

So, I'm not an expert on Ralios, and there's not a ton written about it in the publications I have.  In another thread, I would love to get a handle on the 3rd Age history of Ralios, but in this thread, I'd like some help figuring out how the Hero Wars unfold there.  My knowledge is mostly limited to the "Hero War Begins" sidebars in the Guide.  The stated events are The Five Arkats, the Swarm, One God One King One Empire, and Hezel Darong far to the east.   I can wrap my head at least a little around all of them except the Five Arkats.  This is what The Guide says:

Quote

"The ways of Heroquesting are abruptly opened, and it isn’t what everyone expected. One is a troll, one is a Chaos monster, and no one is quite sure which incarnation the other three are. The resulting Heroquesting provides awesome weapons of destruction to the leaders vying for power."

My understanding is that when the Godlearners broke the Stygian Empire, they locked down the ability for Arkati to access Arkat via heroquesting.  For the last sever centuries, various Arkati factions have been trying to break the GL firewalls, and during that time their doctrines and secret knowledges increasingly diverged from one another.  Do I have all that right?

Suddenly, all the firewalls drop, and people have access to 5 Arkats.  Do the Arkats literally come to life again in and around Safelster, or are they visions of Arkat that may now be contacted?  Are they "metaphorical" Arkats with the 5 Arkats being major heroes across Genertela?  Something else?

Finally, timing: Despite being listed first in the Guide, I could imagine the order is Swarm in 1622, Seshnela / Tanisor invades, and then sometime in the mid-late 1620s the Arkats emerge.  Or dothe Arkats really emerge first?