jeffjerwin

I suspect Orlanth has brown/tan skin in some representations. The blue is partly because of the color of stormy clouds and sky, methinks. So the Storm/Rain/War aspects - which overlap - are probably blue and the steadholder/chief aspects are brown... Woad would then be an attempt to low-key hero form the god, then, I suppose.

Speaking of weird centuries-long wars involving the Elder Races...

Currently in my daughter's game with me she's trying resurrect the local great tree in alliance with a faction of Kitori opposed to the Zorak Zorani who have her not-quite dead trunk buried in a cave filled with undead... Ah, Voria hero quests...

As it turns out Innocence and Life-bringing is powerful inducement for local spirits to help her.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Perhaps less a vow, but a result of not eating. But certainly convenient to never have to poop if you literally spend your entire time mounted. 

I was thinking also of the diet entirely of meat...

Of course constipation and gout don't exist in Glorantha except perhaps as punishment for breaking spiritual rules or as a consequence of disease spirits.

13 hours ago, davecake said:

I do think that it’s impossible to directly follow the path Sheng’s Bursts took, as his teachings were based around loyalty to him magically (and magically sabotaged, as noted above), but it’s possible to follow something quite close. It’s also likely that very few direct practitioners survived, and those that did found themselves a minority within a Pentax culture that wanted to move on and find alternatives (such as the Storm tribes).

But it’s also likely that many of Shengs ideas survived and there are many people trying variants and reinventions. Some are trying to repeat his path from first principles, some trying to use his system salvaging as much as they can (and will be delighted when he is freed), some trying to reinvent it to include other systems that are seen as more viable than his ancient Solar ways. 

So, extreme ascetics, mysticism, but variants. Mostly variants on Shengs system, so combined with Solar shamanism, ancient Kargzant etc rituals, pure nomad practices. But some variants. Particularly, the same weird mystic asceticism applied to the Storm gods (eg followers of North War Wind (Humakt) with the equivalent of all the gifts, and as Illuminates able to get away with twisting the meaning of the inconvenient geases). 

What sort of ascetic practices? I’m thinks strict diet (eg only horse meat), not drinking water, meditation for hours, never sleeping under cover (in some cases not sleeping for extended periods), sleeping on sharp rocks, slashing at the body, staring at the sun, voluntary hyperthermia (meditating next to fires etc), never being in full darkness, sometimes not touching the ground but being mounted for days, staring at the sun. 

You can always tell which one is the Sheng fanatic by how they walk... Never defecating sounds possible as well.

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Me favourite stylistic error is on p42 where in the space of four paragraphs, Kallyr is twice described as a Prince and once as a Queen.  The effect is so jarring that I think it was intentional and reflects Amstalli having a senior moment.  

She's both, though: Queen of the Kheldon tribe and Prince of Sartar...

2 hours ago, Charles said:

 

Page 204 "Yelm is the Sun God, son of the Primal Aether and Lord of the Middle Fire. His rival was Orlanth, son of Umath the Primal Storm and King of Storms."

His rival was Orlanth -> His rival is Orlanth

(or change to "Yelm was" for consistency )

 

Technically this is correct, in my opinion. Yelm is the Sun God, and Orlanth and he have made peace. Because of the pre-Time and how it interacts with the world after Time, sometimes the two are in conflict in a ritual sense, but the end of the Greater Darkness was found in their truce and acceptance of friendship.

I'm thinking the Flowers of Death might be suitable for my purposes (mainly because they have an awesome name and no doubt lovely decorations). Though Thorakitai types might make a lot of sense for the hill country. Are there any of those recruited among the Odaylings...?

Hmmm... Tatius wants to stain the Whitewalls red with purifying Lunar/DH blood (metaphorically). This seems like work for the Elevens. Ideally, of course, it should be expressions of Celestial/Yelmic power. Ritual death also seems to be associated with the Danfive Xaron cult, given what happened to him... and his connection to Air.

What sort of unfortunates are inappropriate for that sacred duty? Darjiini? I guess Tarshites would make the best perimeter patrol since at least they are familiar with defending against Heortlings in the hill country.

I know that the Yelmalions were allied with the Lunars until the Auroch Hills battle, but were they in Whitewall or in Hendrikiland?

I'm wondering if there is any mention of specific units or officers being present that I'm overlooking:

Jorkandros the Blinder (dismissed ?late 1619)- commands probably a Dara Happan unit from Yuthuppa

Tatius the Bright (1619+); absent much of the time

Fazzur with the Provincial Army; there are still Dara Happans in Hendrikiland to cause problems for him in 1619-22.

Enarian Scarlet, and Garoshargash, both with the College of Magic

What sort of unit would be stationed to patrol the perimeter of the siege or to protect supplies?

Didn't Geo and his cult first appear in Different Worlds #1?

I can't locate that currently but my recollection was the bouncer was part of Greg's original article. Perhaps someone can track it down.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Whether truth or "urban legend" in my games remains to be seen in some future time.

All I'm saying is... heroforming.

That said, I think it would be pretty funny or interesting if Geo's Bouncer was an "urban legend", a role taken on by some patron or employee of the tavern; I mean, his face is covered by a mask, and the stories about him are a bit over the top.

Going back to my last post - "The only man man enough to initiate to Babeester Gor" sounds like a great way to pull someone's leg.

I'm about 90% sure I'm going to have the costume in a locked box in the cellar and the whole thing some sort of stunt that became a tradition in the cult.

2 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

Geo's bouncer is a Lunar demon, who knows what's what.

There's more than one Moon.

Hmmm.

There's this (false) rumor in the Sartar Companion: "The infamous bouncer of Geo’s is illuminated and recently joined the cult of Danfive Xaron." - there is, I'd admit, a certain similarity between the Bouncer and Danfive cultists.

The Bouncer in extant illustrations (see the Cult Compendium) is dressed like a executioner/leather fetishist, complete with a hood.

I'm thinking he's a male Babeester Gor cultist. After all, she does have a connection to beer. The axe in the CC art even matches.

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Wind Voics used to have to own a cart pulled by oxen, I think, so maybe connected to Orlanth.

Geo's Bouncer is the only person the Lunars are afraid of, apparently, but I think that is hogwash, personally.

Possibly, though the axe points elsewhere.

I wonder also about the story about the Bouncer - though "Home of the Bold" had it powerful enough to wipe out a column of Lunar soldiers. However, the rumour seems awfully convenient. It means the rebels think they're safe in Geo's, while making spying on their movements (at the very least) fairly simple, unless the participants are being really careful. Add one skilled Lunar spy with considerable skill in Illusion and you could listen in on all their planning. Thus there's a possibility the notion was spread by Lunar Intelligence itself.

Wondering what we know, and what people think this thing is.

It carries an axe, which to me suggests an Earth connection, which also makes sense since cookery is an Earth aspected art, more or less. Another observation I'd make is that the Bouncer subsists off the blood of its bull, that drags it in a cart, which seems vaguely akin to the bulls and bullocks that the pull the carts of the Ernalda temple at Clearwine and at the Shaker Temple among the Exiles. 

Edit: I wonder it it could be connected to the Sanchali tribe wyter? It's definitely a wyter of some kind.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

If you mean "let's trigger the war menses", let's not go there. We are hoping to expand our female player numbers, and that's how not to do it. Imagine a game that mandates "sure you can play a magician. When was your mage's castration, shortly after birth, or after his voice broke?"

I was thinking more along the analogy of giving birth to battle. This is a metaphor that already exists in the material.

While a little discomforting I would accept castration = greater magic in a fully realized culture or setting. Of course, Glorantha has multiple right ways to do magic, and even if that were true, it isn't universal. The Brithini are ascetic to nearly that degree.

I wasn't trying to exclude anyone - the mention of menses was extrapolating from Tantric materialist cosmology (which certainly includes male energies); I think overall the options for female characters in Glorantha should sometimes reflect practical aspects of their spiritual/physical lives. This would only apply to a subset Earth or Life magic based spirit cults rather than spirit cults of other runes. However, I admit that these runes so totally dominate female culture in Kerofinela and Genertela in general that it might turn from a cultural detail into something that people make universal, which would be wrong. Nonetheless, if we don't consider this important, there out to be a reason why non-matriarchal Gloranthan cultures don't have certain taboos. I get a real sense that underlying Dara Happan patriarchy is fear, which would go with the whole Gorgorma cult.

I don't consider hormones and reproduction stupid - simply a part of our animal natures.

One thing in the back of my mind was the feminisation of Christ in the arguably queer doctrine of the Moravians, though there the wound is the wound of Longinus' spear. To them, of course, Christ's unity with the Holy Spirit/Theophany is possible because he transcends gender - the androgyn you mentioned earlier. Unfortunately positing the androgyn as the ideal for a Mystic magician suggests that the elderly and the pre-pubescent make the best mystics... Maybe that's true - it would explain the dismissal of married life in real world mystic traditions. Of course left-handed traditions like Tantra flip everything around, though. Certainly that system - in both its Buddhist and Shaktic Hindu variants - along with Taoism in some varieties - has a nuanced relationship to asceticism.

It's difficult to thread the needle of gender and myth.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

You have never seen a Maori Haka, have you? A beautiful dance, and not at all peaceful.

Well, Harmony is not the opposite of Death... I used the wrong word there: though Harmony is still the principal "peace" rune.

Regarding maleficia - perhaps. Though necromancy is an extension of thaumaturgical capabilities inherent in the priesthood, and was more prominent as a problem for the church than mere low magic. Witchcraft of the hedge and cottage variety of course threatens sacerdotal authority by offering something outside their magisterium. In our world, though there is a whole gendered level of magic in the West (and, in so far as I have studied, in South Asia and China also) that is forbidden by being rooted in the "other gender" - from a male perspective.

Is there a strong connection between menses, pregnancy, menopause and magic in Glorantha? If so, there is indeed a feminine mystery that Earth can deploy that is not innocent, bloody, and natural [Earth+Water+Life]. Of course among humans, there are no doubt female ancestors and sub-wyters that are only for the Earth and Water cults.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

In this sense, there is the paradox of using a Green Age style unity to form an otherworldly agent of destruction to release upon a battlefield on mostly defenseless troops. It does require some form of enlightenment to combine both innocent unity and aggressive intent.

Perhaps through the analogy of sowing, tending, reaping, saving the seeds... This is an innocent, self-replenishing process in the Cockaynian Golden Age, but as with Taker and Grower, involves things that become harsher and more violent as the God-time progresses. Thus, perhaps, the war-dance magic of the Great Sister's army - a dance is a pure manifestation of Peace and demonstration of physical finesse - except when it is also War. Thus also the women's magic of witchcraft uses women's tools - ladles, pastels, brooms, cauldrons, knives, herbs - that are beneficial things that might be turned to maleficia (in our world).

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The proficiency of the Tarsh Exiles magicians is at least as high as that of the Sartarites, and the question is who taught them? Argrath gets the honor (or blame) for the Sartar Magical Union, and the Imperial College of Magic precedes that by centuries, being more or less uncountered except for the struggles with Sheng and his hordes. So, how much of those regimental-sized spirits is common in Kralorela? Do they have exarch units which act like the magicians in the SMU?

But which Argrath gets the credit?

Isn't there a vague "understanding" that real mystical/magical secrets in Kerofinela are pre-Time-originating women's business? I'm inclined to say that the secret of group magic is a "witch" thing that the Lunar Goddess opened up to all genders. After all, unified defensive magic is a pretty Earth magic/hearth based concept. This is just a gut feeling, but I think they are fairly helpful in Glorantha.

15 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

I think its an interesting questions where the lines of delineation fall with the female roles between the Grazelanders and Verdef, 

With the men its quite simple grazelanders - horses, war, fighting, sun gods. verdef - farming, trades, making, growing, other animals.

I have the Grazelander women as being hands off agriculture and manual labour, but responsible for healing, horses, raising children, teaching, knowledge and mysticism 

I'd make Grazelander women responsible for milking mares, brewing fermented mare's milk (which is probably prohibited to the vendref), weaving, logistical/trade management of encampments, judging and stewarding the vendref directly, and leading and organizing dances, songs, and funerals (which are all more specific versions of the above)...

Model of the tower on the Gavrening tula... work in progress with my daughter.It's sort of based on a broch. The roof remains to be thatched, the platform above the main hall has to be added and the building painted and furnished...

Also we will have to add a windsock and ochre paintings on the outside...

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Slarges didn't exist until Griffin Island in the mid-1980's.  The beast is a rock lizard.

Ah, OK.

I was under the impression that Sandy Peterson introduced them to Glorantha.

On 31 January 2018 at 6:32 PM, seneschal said:

My beef with this thread is that we got to see the goofy monster illustrations but not the cheesecake warrior ones.  Nearly four decades of hungry dragon newts can't be wrong -- scantily armored soldiers are a Runequest staple.  Sorry about them losing their shield arms.  😁

Isn't the thing on the cover a slarge? That was my head-canon, anyway.

53 minutes ago, g33k said:

There is the effect wherein powerful HeroQuests can influence the nature of the gods... but maybe they just influence the "cultural lens" through which the locals see the god...

Sometimes I get the feeling that because the Godplane appears static to people within Time (even though it's "still going on") the gods people worship are momentary aspects of the gods, and that most if not all are quite complex, changing characters. Orlanth and Yelm are salutary examples: they have a quite complex and interesting biography, but the aspects that are worshipped are snapshots of the god at specific places and times. This is useful for recreating the power of the God that you need and want, but that power and personality may be quite different from the god at another place and time.

Of course, Elmal to me is Yelmalio after he was maimed at the Hill of God, and healed by CA. I tend to think of him as being a wiser and perhaps happier god. Orlanth's encounter and friendship with Elmal laid the seed for Orlanth's respect for his old enemy in the Underworld. Elmal also perserved the Theyalans so there were people to greet the Dawn. Hence Yelmalio may seem more powerful - indeed - he represents an undefeated god - but Elmal may well be wiser and kinder.

Orlanth of course is wisest and kindest in his Lightbringer aspect, as the seven parts of the combined Lightbringer wyter embody things like compassion, knowledge, equal exchange, creativity and humour, courage in the face of fear, and leadership.

In any rate, it's said Urox raised the Storm Hills between Vingkot and Tada because of a feud between them, so perhaps Vingkot neglected to pay any bride price at all...